awd/fwd when wanting to go cheap

[boomhower]

Get FWD and a set of snow tires. AWD is nice but not worth a 25% premium in the price range you are looking at.

 

[Eug]

Get FWD and a set of snow tires. AWD is nice but not worth a 25% premium in the price range you are looking at.

Pretty good advice for the OP. AWD IMO can almost be considered a no-brainer at the higher prices ranges when offered, since the price premium relative to the car isn't much. OTOH, at the lower price ranges (esp. in the used market), adding AWD costs a lot relative to the price class of the car.

$1500 for a $40000 car ain't that much. $1000 for a $5000 car is a lot.

 

[mizzou]

thanks for the responses!

 

[exar333]

+1

Save the $5000 and spend $500 of it on winter tires.

This.

Also, not all AWD systems are equal. A CRV's AWD system is essentially 90/10 split and just kicks-in when traction has already been lost. Mostly worthless....

If you want an inexpensive car with a solid AWD, stick to a Subaru. MT preferably, because they have traditionally come with a better AWD system vs. some AT Subarus, especially on more cheaper models.

Winter tires are a must though, if snow is a regular consideration.

 

[Jumpem]

And on those straight stretches of road it makes no difference your drive.

Tell that to the guy halfway in the ditch down a stretch of highway after you plow into him because your AWD did nothing to stop you from hitting him. Or tell that to the guy you hit head on when you come across what seems like a totally slight right hand curve but since you're going 15mph faster than everyone else, you start to drift into the left lane and there's nothing you can do to avoid it.

Or preferably, you should just stay home until you understand how driving dynamics work when snow and ice are on the roads.

When it snows here, there are people that drive 20 MPH with flashers on and people driving 55 MPH, and everything in between. The highways still tend to get close to the 65 MPH limit as long as it is not a white out.

People arguing that every driver and vehicle should go the same speed is not logical. The capabilities of the vehicle, tires, and driver competency all come into play. A Subaru with snow tires should not be driving at the same speed as a FWD car with all season tires.

 

[Harrod]

I agree with getting snow tires if you are in an area to justify it. I have a 2013 outback and I also have snow tires.

Yes, it's overkill for the handful of snow days that we get, but it's worth it for me on the crappy days to tell my wife to take my car instead of having to ferry her to and from work that week.

 

[MongGrel]

OTOH, if you're going too fast for the conditions on the highway, AWD is not really going to help you. You don't actually stop better on ice with AWD.

It was pretty much going 30 on a highway that is usually rated 70 on the speed limit att, and had been plowed, and was straight.

A high gust of wind on anything whether it is AWD or not can slap anything off the road if it's icy was my point. It probably would have done it if I was going 10.

 

[3chordcharlie]

When it snows here, there are people that drive 20 MPH with flashers on and people driving 55 MPH, and everything in between. The highways still tend to get close to the 65 MPH limit as long as it is not a white out.

People arguing that every driver and vehicle should go the same speed is not logical. The capabilities of the vehicle, tires, and driver competency all come into play. A Subaru with snow tires should not be driving at the same speed as a FWD car with all season tires.

But it should be driving the same speed as a FWD car with snow tires, because it has almost exactly the same amount of control above 5MPH.

 

[Jumpem]

But it should be driving the same speed as a FWD car with snow tires, because it has almost exactly the same amount of control above 5MPH.

Not quite.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Not quite.

No, it really should. You are over-confident because the car is able to go from a stop without getting stuck. When it comes to proceeding safely down a road braking and steering are far more important than acceleration, and they are far more dependent on tires than on AWD.

edit - a word.

 

[Jumpem]

No, it really should. You are over-confident because the car is able to go from a stop without getting stuck. When it comes to proceeding safely down a road braking and steering are far more important than acceleration, and they are far more dependent on tires than on AWD.

edit - a word.

The tire argument is pointless because I always use snow tires. Watch the Consumer Reports video about AWD handling on snow covered terrain. AWD is about much more than starting from a stop.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design.html
http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design/awd-benefits.html

 

[3chordcharlie]

The tire argument is pointless because I always use snow tires. Watch the Consumer Reports video about AWD handling on snow covered terrain. AWD is about much more than starting from a stop.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design.html
http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design/awd-benefits.html

Subaru absolutely makes fantastic cars for bad conditions. They are among the best, if not the best, when equipped with proper tires.

My point - and I am right - is that although they may perform incrementally better, they are not magically superior in poor conditions once moving. They are still subject to the passive mechanical grip provided by the four tires to allow steering and braking.

Seeing people who believe that AWD is a substitute for snow tires (found in this thread), or that it makes it safe to travel faster (found in this thread) is a danger to everyone on the road.

This all started as a general discussion of AWD for general purpose winter driving. And the usual predictable claims about AWD 'magic' were definitely made.

 

[Kelvrick]

The tire argument is pointless because I always use snow tires. Watch the Consumer Reports video about AWD handling on snow covered terrain. AWD is about much more than starting from a stop.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design.html
http://www.subaru.com/engineering/design/awd-benefits.html

All of your arguments do not address the single point that you don't come to a stop any faster than a fwd car with the same tires. We can definitely accelerate faster, and we can change direction faster when applying throttle to take advantage of the ability to apply power to different wheels, but stopping in snow/ice? We don't have any benefits since most modern cars have plenty of braking power to lock up wheels on dry pavement, much less ice/snow.

And I'm an AWD lover. I've had up to 3 subarus at the same time for just myself and I think you're just making yourself look bad at this point.

 

[tortillasoup]

All of your arguments do not address the single point that you don't come to a stop any faster than a fwd car with the same tires. We can definitely accelerate faster, and we can change direction faster when applying throttle to take advantage of the ability to apply power to different wheels, but stopping in snow/ice? We don't have any benefits since most modern cars have plenty of braking power to lock up wheels on dry pavement, much less ice/snow.

And I'm an AWD lover. I've had up to 3 subarus at the same time for just myself and I think you're just making yourself look bad at this point.

exactly. This point is always lost on the misinformed. The worst part about AWD is the false sense of security it gives drivers. It allows lousy drivers to drive when they shouldn't, and get into deeper trouble than they normally would.

 

[NutBucket]

Maybe Subaru should start offering a boat anchor as a port installed option.

 

[Eug]

exactly. This point is always lost on the misinformed. The worst part about AWD is the false sense of security it gives drivers. It allows lousy drivers to drive when they shouldn't, and get into deeper trouble than they normally would.

I went out of my way to emphasize to my wife that AWD doesn't stop better than 2WD when we ordered our RAV4 Hybrid AWD, but she just looked at me and said that was obvious and wondered why I thought I felt the need to tell her.

I was a bit surprised, but then I remembered she used to own a Jeep 4x4 when we first met, so it makes sense she'd know. I'm surprised at the number of people that don't know this though.

BTW, it's interesting to read the reviews about cars and their cornering abilities, and how certain AWD-endowed cars do manage to accelerate faster around corners before breaking free. However, what I take from this is you should never be accelerating this fast around a corner on snow and ice, because you're constantly on the edge of breaking free. You should be going much, much slower. If the guy behind you honks, well, screw 'em.

 

[ra1nman]

I owned a 00' 4wd Tundra and before that a 95' 4wd Tacoma. Strangely both Toyotas did not have ABS. I came to the typical realization that there is a false sense of security having 4wd especially on ice. One quick point about not having abs for so long it teaches you is to always brake earlier than later.

I currently drive a G35x which is equipped with ABS. I sometimes get curious how icy roads are since i don't often hear my abs go off....so sometimes I randomly brake check myself when no one is around to see if the if the brake pedal starts pulsing (which it does).

Although the G35x is an AWD vehicle it is RWD bias. It drives with the rear wheels before the brains decide to engage the front wheels for stability. I can kick out the rear end to a degree before the computer intervenes. A major downside is not being able to do shitties in an empty parking lot covered with snow anymore *sad panda*

 

[freeskier93]

I went out of my way to emphasize to my wife that AWD doesn't stop better than 2WD when we ordered our RAV4 Hybrid AWD, but she just looked at me and said that was obvious and wondered why I thought I felt the need to tell her.

I was a bit surprised, but then I remembered she used to own a Jeep 4x4 when we first met, so it makes sense she'd know. I'm surprised at the number of people that don't know this though.

BTW, it's interesting to read the reviews about cars and their cornering abilities, and how certain AWD-endowed cars do manage to accelerate faster around corners before breaking free. However, what I take from this is you should never be accelerating this fast around a corner on snow and ice, because you're constantly on the edge of breaking free. You should be going much, much slower. If the guy behind you honks, well, screw 'em.

Actually, something like a Jeep Wrangler will stop better in 4wd. 4wd means the front and rear axles are locked together (in contrast to AWD where there is a differential between the front and rear), because the front and rear driveline are locked together braking forces are better distributed through the driveline. Basically it makes it harder to lock up the tires, which is incredibly valuable, especially since very few Wrangler (TJ and older) have ABS.

 

[Jumpem]

All of your arguments do not address the single point that you don't come to a stop any faster than a fwd car with the same tires. We can definitely accelerate faster, and we can change direction faster when applying throttle to take advantage of the ability to apply power to different wheels, but stopping in snow/ice? We don't have any benefits since most modern cars have plenty of braking power to lock up wheels on dry pavement, much less ice/snow.

And I'm an AWD lover. I've had up to 3 subarus at the same time for just myself and I think you're just making yourself look bad at this point.

You simply leave longer distances in front of your vehicle. That has little do with driving speed.

 

[tortillasoup]

Actually, something like a Jeep Wrangler will stop better in 4wd. 4wd means the front and rear axles are locked together (in contrast to AWD where there is a differential between the front and rear), because the front and rear driveline are locked together braking forces are better distributed through the driveline. Basically it makes it harder to lock up the tires, which is incredibly valuable, especially since very few Wrangler (TJ and older) have ABS.

This is only relevant if you're using engine braking. You don't need 4wd to do regular braking. It could be useful if you could have a brake system that redistributed the braking power bias from front to rear on the fly but they figure that ABS is good enough even though it's useless on ice.

 

[freeskier93]

This is only relevant if you're using engine braking. You don't need 4wd to do regular braking. It could be useful if you could have a brake system that redistributed the braking power bias from front to rear on the fly but they figure that ABS is good enough even though it's useless on ice.

Has nothing to do with engine braking, affect of the engine on low traction braking is a different topic.

Think of it this way, if you also have lockers (I do not advise however having lockers engaged for winter street driving) then all the wheels are locked together through the drivetrain. That means when you hit the brakes it is not possible to lock up just one wheel, either none lock up or they all do. If some wheels have traction but others don't then it will prevent the wheels with no traction from locking up.

Essentially, it is a way of adjusting brake bias.

It is rather meaningless though for newer cars since they all have ABS, but for older non ABS vehicles it does make a huge difference. I drive a '97 TJ (no ABS), it goes from a feather on the brake pedal locking up some wheels to more "normal" braking.

 

[tortillasoup]

Has nothing to do with engine braking, affect of the engine on low traction braking is a different topic.

Think of it this way, if you also have lockers (I do not advise however having lockers engaged for winter street driving) then all the wheels are locked together through the drivetrain. That means when you hit the brakes it is not possible to lock up just one wheel, either none lock up or they all do. If some wheels have traction but others don't then it will prevent the wheels with no traction from locking up.

Essentially, it is a way of adjusting brake bias.

It is rather meaningless though for newer cars since they all have ABS, but for older non ABS vehicles it does make a huge difference. I drive a '97 TJ (no ABS), it goes from a feather on the brake pedal locking up some wheels to more "normal" braking.

any car that has a differential lock AND hub locks is in a completely different category. However, even that said, TFL (youtube) did some tests comparing fwd and 4wd both with and without snow tires. Snow tires are extremely valuable!!!

 

[freeskier93]

any car that has a differential lock AND hub locks is in a completely different category. However, even that said, TFL (youtube) did some tests comparing fwd and 4wd both with and without snow tires. Snow tires are extremely valuable!!!

Principal is still the same with open diffs, just to a lesser extent. I agree about snow tires. There's a reason I don't drive the Jeep in snow; wide, off road tires meant for rock crawling (plus shot wheel base) are a terrible combination. I'll take a cushy AWD sedan with snow tires and all the traction aid bells and whistles any day of the week.

 

[tortillasoup]

Principal is still the same with open diffs, just to a lesser extent. I agree about snow tires. There's a reason I don't drive the Jeep in snow; wide, off road tires meant for rock crawling (plus shot wheel base) are a terrible combination. I'll take a cushy AWD sedan with snow tires and all the traction aid bells and whistles any day of the week.

with an open differential, there wouldn't be any biasing then because power always moves to the wheel with least grip. The braking force wouldn't be manipulated by the drivetrain then. If you have decent grip yeah that can have an effect but then the issue is moot unless you're like racing or something.

 

[Rustican]

If you're you're doing short trips in non hilly areas a FWD car with snow tiers will suit you fine. For longer trips you might want something more capable since the weather may changed on you in route and having AWD will help you get through unplowed roads. Going up hills are also a strength that AWD has.

Subarus have a well earned reputation. Areas where there are heavy snows are Subaru country for a reason.

Consumer reports review of Subaru, Honda and Toyota in the snow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-TQdIqFvZo