Average American: Want a raise? Too bad....income could decline next 30 years

[Incorruptible]

In a Democracy, the People have the right to levy taxes and to redistribute money. Money is, after all, a creation of the State itself, having no intrinsic value w/o the State to back it up. Witness Confederate money.

Except the US was never meant to be a democracy but a republic. They don't have the right to take money from others and redistribute it.

 

[Anarchist420]

In a Democracy, the People have the right to levy taxes and to redistribute money.

This isn't a democracy. Anything that's democratic isn't a State.

Money is, after all, a creation of the State itself, having no intrinsic value w/o the State to back it up.

If the State didn't exist, people would trade one thing of intrinsic value for another and both parties would benefit rather than just the banksters and the elite.

 

[Engineer]

This isn't a democracy. Anything that's democratic isn't a State.
If the State didn't exist, people would trade one thing of intrinsic value for another and both parties would benefit rather than just the banksters and the elite.

Well, the state does exist so your argument is what exactly? That you don't want the state to exist?

(I already know the answer to this).

 

[Jhhnn]

This isn't a democracy. Anything that's democratic isn't a State.
If the State didn't exist, people would trade one thing of intrinsic value for another and both parties would benefit rather than just the banksters and the elite.

You're so lame. The whole concept of money expedites commerce, makes it possible for people who'll never meet in person to do business with each other. Being reduced to barter is a fool's paradise.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well, the state does exist so your argument is what exactly? That you don't want the state to exist?

(I already know the answer to this).

He just defines terms to suit his purposes. You can't discuss cats with a person who defines "dog" as "cat".

 

[God Mode]

Congrats, your brainwashing has been a complete success. You are incapable of thinking on your own, your thoughts are provided to you by the progressive collective. As a retired middle class former owner of one store in a franchise of thousands I can readily recognize your idiocy. Your biggest accomplishment to date may be picking your own nose but that makes you wholly and completely unqualified to understand the world around you.

Dumbasses like yourself will never accomplish anything unless someone gives it to you or you find a means to take it. The problem in this nation is your mindset. You will be a servant class worker all your days and you'll blame it on everyone but yourself. Your education was a complete and utter failure. But by all means keep picketing to get your wages doubled at McD's. I'm sure you're the best at wrapping fish filet sandwiches.

Whatever you do, please don't breed.

It's too bad that I'm better educated than you and richer than you. I just see spades and call it what it is. You live in a tiny bubble of a world if you really think business owners don't extort the under-class to better themselves while barely lifting a finger.

Do you know of the bus seat phenomenon? Whoever got the seats first and refuse to budge leaves nothing for anyone else. This is finite planet we're living on.

Your stupid family would probably starve and be on the streets if you weren't there let them ride the coattails. All you do for an argument is to be belligerent and insult. You're the one that shouldn't breed, idiot.

Retired? Former owner of a business? I remember 10-20 years ago when things were simple and easy. You wouldn't make it in this current world and I know this and that you're out of touch with reality. Choke on a chicken wing and die of cardiac arrest, fatass.

 

[OverVolt]

Japan already went down the QE path.

I suspect the effects will be the same here.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2012/07/06/Incomes-in-Japan-in-decline/UPI-53341341586286/

The Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare said in a report that 61.5 percent of households indicated they were struggling to earn a living, a record high, Kyodo News reported Friday.

Data from the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare show that the average household income for 2010 matched the average income level for 1988.

Thats all I have so far but thats what I think we have to look forward to.

Japan is on QE 8 or something.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/world/2006-07-23-japan-usat_x.htm

That is from 2006 but puts what we have to look forward to into perspective. In 2006 articles like that didn't make much sense to me, but now I can see this is clearly how things are headed. The second article is a GOOD read. Apparently articles in 2006 were much better than ones today.

Randall Jones, head of the OECD's Japan desk, concedes that the swelling ranks of the elderly have contributed significantly to rising inequality. But he and others also are troubled by another demographic group: people such as data-processing temp Takeshi Ito, who entered the job market during the economic malaise of the '90s and had to settle for part-time or irregular work. These young people, many of whom lived with their parents and enjoyed the freedom of part-time work, are known as "freeters" — a hybrid of the English word "free" and the German word "arbeit," which is used in Japan to describe temporary workers.

Cutting costs in the '90s, Japanese companies found they could save money and increase flexibility by hiring temporary workers. Non-regular workers — including part-timers, temps and workers on short-term contracts — accounted for 29% of the Japanese workforce in 2004, up from 19% in 1994, the OECD says. Part-timers, who make up two-thirds of non-regular employees, earn 40% as much per hour as full-time employees.

Some still shut out of jobs

Although Japan's economy is humming again — even beginning to experience labor shortages — freeters are still being shut out of full-time jobs as they approach their 30s. Japanese companies favor hiring recent graduates, training them well and molding them into loyal employees; freeters are viewed as damaged goods, harder to train and discipline. "Companies are reluctant to hire freeters," says Hisashi Yamada, senior economist at the Japan Research Institute. "Freeters will get old as freeters."

Sound familiar? We went down a path that will stagnate us for decades in all honestly. Temp workers, part-time workforce, wealth inequality, a stigmatized permanently unemployed group. Yup.

I think the only reason Japan has been able to be stagnant for so long and survive is because it was just a small fraction of the global economy. This is now happening the world over. Greece, Spain, USA, Japan, China, UK, France, Germany. Its crazy. Essentially the entire western world +1. China had the 1-child policy and has demographic problems now too.

 

[Jhhnn]

Except the US was never meant to be a democracy but a republic. They don't have the right to take money from others and redistribute it.

Obviously, you're mistaken. Reference the sixteenth amendment.

 

[boomerang]

Heck for me it's the actual small business owners, those that still are working to make things work. It's them and their employees that seem to be the ones that are doing well.

Exactly right. You see that and I see that. But our angered progressive friend has nothing but disdain for that business owner. That business owner is part of the problem.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35118902&postcount=22

 

[Jhhnn]

Do you know of the bus seat phenomenon? Whoever got the seats first and refuse to budge leaves nothing for anyone else. This is finite planet we're living on.

Too true. Righties suffer from certain idealizations left over from the western frontier & watching too many John Wayne movies, too much of the Lone Ranger, too much right wing Libertopian propaganda.

The western frontier closed over 100 years ago, but in their heads, it's still open, with untapped riches just there for the taking. It shapes their ideology entirely.

 

[Zaap]

The only thing finite is the so-called progressive's intellect. It's VERY finite. In fact, though many of them seem to think they're the smartest people in the world, the majority of them are just not very bright. No other way to put it.

Sitting around and lamenting that everything has 'already been done' has itself been done since the dawn of time. It's always the shortsighted morons who think there's no possible way to invent anything more, to do anything differently, to think of something no one else has thought of.

Probably it happened with cavemen- the dumbasses sat around and said, "that's it, the good ol' days are over. Someone already invented the club. Nothing else can ever be done. Ideas are finite, it's a finite planet." Then one of them got off their ass and invented fire. The dumbasses then insisted that was all there would ever be...

...and so on right up to present day. Dumbasses sitting around lamenting that all "the wealth" has been created, all "the ideas" have been thought of, everything's finite, everything is limited.

No. You're just one of the stupid people.

 

[Acanthus]

Exactly right. You see that and I see that. But our angered progressive friend has nothing but disdain for that business owner. That business owner is part of the problem.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35118902&postcount=22

Which small business are we talking about?

The deli, the gas station, or the hedge fund?

Conservatives don't seem to be able to separate these.

 

[Acanthus]

The only thing finite is the so-called progressive's intellect. It's VERY finite. In fact, though many of them seem to think they're the smartest people in the world, the majority of them are just not very bright. No other way to put it.

Sitting around and lamenting that everything has 'already been done' has itself been done since the dawn of time. It's always the shortsighted morons who think there's no possible way to invent anything more, to do anything differently, to think of something no one else has thought of.

Probably it happened with cavemen- the dumbasses sat around and said, "that's it, the good ol' days are over. Someone already invented the club. Nothing else can ever be done. Ideas are finite, it's a finite planet." Then one of them got off their ass and invented fire. The dumbasses then insisted that was all there would ever be...

...and so on right up to present day. Dumbasses sitting around lamenting that all "the wealth" has been created, all "the ideas" have been thought of, everything's finite, everything is limited.

No. You're just one of the stupid people.

Wait. You understand what a conservative is, right?

 

[Zaap]

^ and speaking of one of the stupid people...

 

[Abraxas]

Wait. You understand what a conservative is, right?

He had me. Seriously. I could not tell him apart before, but this guy is more Sophitia than Sophitia, that is the only way any of this makes sense. Well done sir.

 

[Zaap]

^ Stupider shows up! LOL!

 

[Abraxas]

^ Stupider shows up! LOL!

No, name calling will not convince everyone that your argument is good when it shows a complete misunderstanding of what it means to be conservative or progressive. I will give what to you is an extremely subtle hint though, the answer to both can be found in "conserve" and "progress".

 

[Zaap]

Nothing about progressives is about progress. Most of you are -exactly as charged- pretty dim. Pretty much all of your 'ideas' are tired, outdated, disproven- you're just never knowledgeable enough to know it. Your feeble minds arrive at the most primitive, childish notions that have no connection to civilized, rational thought- mostly just emo-driven cromagnon stuff like "Me jealous!" "Me want!" "Me take!" and yet you think the nonsense you hatch from that is something new or novel.

You're not even bright enough to know that the post I was responding to is a couple of so-called 'progressives' whining about how the world is finite and there's nothing left for them boo hoo, and how it's no longer the wild west- all the usual crutches of the terminally unimaginative and frankly, the sentiment of the stupid.

 

[boomerang]

I couldn't agree with Zaap more. We can't afford to humor those with the progressive mindset any longer. You hamper innovation, you kill the entrepreneurial spirit, enslave people under the guise of helping them to suit your childish needs, create mayhem and blame others for all of your shortcomings. It's mass arrested development. A slew of people that have never matured past their early teens making the types of decisions that we know scientifically teens are unsuited to make because their brains are not fully developed.

They've infiltrated the government and because they want, want, want, they borrow, borrow, borrow. Making childish decisions that weaken our economy, weaken the nation, create far greater poverty and grow the dependent class under the guise of helping them. Just like children, when faced with their mistakes, they blame somebody else. Wasn't me! Who with children hasn't heard that excuse?

Well children, the pendulum swings. When the tables are turned watch out. You'll reap what you've sown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqEwFzxI1a8

 

[Jhhnn]

The only thing finite is the so-called progressive's intellect. It's VERY finite. In fact, though many of them seem to think they're the smartest people in the world, the majority of them are just not very bright. No other way to put it.

Sitting around and lamenting that everything has 'already been done' has itself been done since the dawn of time. It's always the shortsighted morons who think there's no possible way to invent anything more, to do anything differently, to think of something no one else has thought of.

Probably it happened with cavemen- the dumbasses sat around and said, "that's it, the good ol' days are over. Someone already invented the club. Nothing else can ever be done. Ideas are finite, it's a finite planet." Then one of them got off their ass and invented fire. The dumbasses then insisted that was all there would ever be...

...and so on right up to present day. Dumbasses sitting around lamenting that all "the wealth" has been created, all "the ideas" have been thought of, everything's finite, everything is limited.

No. You're just one of the stupid people.

Nice straw man- a standard tactic of the Libertopian right.

The vast, vast majority of Americans work for somebody other than themselves, often a corporate entity. It's been that way for many generations. Fit your Lone Ranger/ John Galt mentality into that.

Righties always go on about advancing themselves within the system, never a bad idea, but when the system is devolving into hereditary Lords & Serfs, the system doesn't leave much for the Serfs. That's particularly true when the Lords don't keep their Serfs employed, preferring to use cheaper Serfs on the other side of the planet. The Lords still want their economic rents, however, putting their serfs in a bit of a bind.

 

[Exterous]

About 80% of what you listed has to do with taxes or healthcare (or both in some cases).

Can I get a citation for 80%? I am willing to bet legal hurdles, worries, costs, especially regarding liability, comprise far more than 20% of the issues small businesses face. Look at the small businesses facing dire hurdles because of unfavorable liability and legal costs: Blitz USA, Bucky Balls, Lawn Jarts, the list goes on and on and on. How many are settled we don't hear about?

That doesn't even touch on the patent law mess.

Fine, eliminate the business tax altogether and if necessary, impose a small sales tax or income tax increase to cover the difference. I'm sure that the employers will make up the difference with higher wages and benefits now that they aren't taxed, right?

I am not saying eliminate - I am saying streamline. Simplify the tax code (and lending practices, and health care laws and the legal process and the export process etc) Small businesses usually aren't the ones paying CEOs outrageous sums of money that many complain about so why the resistance to streamlining the process and make it easier to start and grow a small business?

65% of all new jobs created are created by small businesses
http://www.sba.gov/content/small-business-trends

Yet we're still down ~5 million small business jobs since 2005 and down 100,000 small businesses
http://www.census.gov/econ/susb/

Small businesses sustained the middle class yet the climate is strangling them. If you strangle your biggest job creating segment why be surprised that job growth and pay is low?

I'm sure that some stuff needs to be streamlined but part of what businesses do here are brought on by themselves: example the constant evolving ISO certifications that are pushed on the manufacturers, often by their customers. I've spent time doing those certifications and it's horrible in costs and I saw NO benefit from what was being force upon us by our customers (Ford, Chrysler, etc).

Fads come and go (Six Sigma, Lean, Sustainability) Many start (and continue) with good ideas but get so bloated by corporate requirements that they loose significance. I'd be surprised if that's something new to the business world

I'm a safety nut so it will be hard to convince me that the safety rules need to be relaxed or removed.

I'm not trying to

 

[Engineer]

Can I get a citation for 80%? I am willing to bet legal hurdles, worries, costs, especially regarding liability, comprise far more than 20% of the issues small businesses face. Look at the small businesses facing dire hurdles because of unfavorable liability and legal costs: Blitz USA, Bucky Balls, Lawn Jarts, the list goes on and on and on. How many are settled we don't hear about?

I was just basing the 80% on what you quoted, not anything looked up. Regardless, I don't think that the average small business spends 20% of it's 'burden' on legal liability, but that's just a guess. Many small business have few issues with that kind of stuff (the company I work for does not).

That doesn't even touch on the patent law mess.

While we may have a mess with patent laws, how many actually effect small business? Really effect them?

I am not saying eliminate - I am saying streamline. Simplify the tax code (and lending practices, and health care laws and the legal process and the export process etc) Small businesses usually aren't the ones paying CEOs outrageous sums of money that many complain about so why the resistance to streamlining the process and make it easier to start and grow a small business?

I've said it for years, eliminate it. It brings in very little revenue compared to income taxes. Raise the income tax rate a tad or go to a sales tax (which will tax both domestic and foreign products). There will be no more excuses from taxes as being the hurdle that small business (or large too) face in hiring and running the business.

Oh, and we're down millions of business because we just had the Great Recession. No surprise there.

Small businesses sustained the middle class yet the climate is strangling them. If you strangle your biggest job creating segment why be surprised that job growth and pay is low?

It might sustain it right now but I'm not sure that the middle class was built on small business or that small business resulted from a strong middle class that resulted from an industrialized USA. More research would need to be done on my part.

 

[bshole]

Righties always go on about advancing themselves within the system, never a bad idea, but when the system is devolving into hereditary Lords & Serfs, the system doesn't leave much for the Serfs.

Especially with the righties CHEERLEADING it. I really don't get them. They see the unions and factory workers getting their throats slit and they literally SUPPORT it. These mental giants don't appear to realize that their throats will be meeting the proverbial knife in very short order. The rich and powerful have been murdering America for several decades now, it is time for America to strike back. I want to see the rich and powerful to suffer greatly for what they have done.

 

[jhbball]

I couldn't agree with Zaap more. We can't afford to humor those with the progressive mindset any longer. You hamper innovation, you kill the entrepreneurial spirit, enslave people under the guise of helping them to suit your childish needs, create mayhem and blame others for all of your shortcomings. It's mass arrested development. A slew of people that have never matured past their early teens making the types of decisions that we know scientifically teens are unsuited to make because their brains are not fully developed.

They've infiltrated the government and because they want, want, want, they borrow, borrow, borrow. Making childish decisions that weaken our economy, weaken the nation, create far greater poverty and grow the dependent class under the guise of helping them. Just like children, when faced with their mistakes, they blame somebody else. Wasn't me! Who with children hasn't heard that excuse?

Well children, the pendulum swings. When the tables are turned watch out. You'll reap what you've sown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqEwFzxI1a8

take a step back from your computer. try to breathe.

 

[Exterous]

I was just basing the 80% on what you quoted, not anything looked up. Regardless, I don't think that the average small business spends 20% of it's 'burden' on legal liability, but that's just a guess. Many small business have few issues with that kind of stuff (the company I work for does not).

Well, to be fair - legal liability is a bit broad. Work safety is a legal liability. Wages are a potential legal liability. HR has potential legal liabilities up the wazoo so your HR department costs can be attributed in part to liability burden. Work contracts? Legal liability. Do you do work in a building? Well, legal liabilities in terms of ADA and accidents there. If you rent the cost is passed on through rent cost.

My issue is not that there are liabilities (well, some of it is) but the cost they result in. The system is bloated, slow and expensive

While we may have a mess with patent laws, how many actually effect small business? Really effect them?

I don't know but it seems to me that any company with important IP has to deal with it. It could be my bias from working at a company that has to constantly worry about defending its IP though (which ties into the legal liability portion because its expensive)

Oh, and we're down millions of business because we just had the Great Recession. No surprise there.

That does make it tough to decern trends but the small business leaders who have survived have found the climate to be more hostile than the past. Unfortunately I don't think there is any good data to show how much this is a problem. I don't see how the current climate doesn't favor mega-corps with massively compensated CEOs at the expense of small businesses more than even 5 years ago though