Author Chris Kyle fatally shot on gun range

[xj0hnx]

If the victims were black, you'd be crying that the shooter was even arrested.

You've been playing with little ponies in make believe too long, stop making shit up.

 

[Nebor]

And if he hadn't re-enlisted, he'd be getting much of the same criticism anyway.



It's not necessarily the case that he re-enlisted because he "wanted to keep killing". It could be that he felt an obligation towards those who were already there.. I seem to recall there being issues with manpower and people being rotated back there sooner than necessary.

Maybe he really was bloodthirsty. I'm just saying these things aren't always cut and dried.

I think this plays a big part in it. It's like the old cliche saying "you're not fighting for freedom, or your country. You're fighting for the guy next to you." After my first tour in Afghanistan I realized that it was a hopeless, pointless quagmire that would ceaselessly consume American lives and money until we just walk away. But I went back for more (all my tours were voluntary) because something inside me tells me that it's better for me to die for nothing than for someone else to die for nothing. So if I can take the place of someone else, then I will, all the while arguing that they shouldn't be sending any of us there.

These feelings get exponentially stronger amongst small communities like SF groups, and SEAL teams where they will almost certainly personally know the person that goes in their place if they decide to quit. I can only imagine that's what kept Chris Kyle going.

 

[sigurros81]

I think this plays a big part in it. It's like the old cliche saying "you're not fighting for freedom, or your country. You're fighting for the guy next to you." After my first tour in Afghanistan I realized that it was a hopeless, pointless quagmire that would ceaselessly consume American lives and money until we just walk away. But I went back for more (all my tours were voluntary) because something inside me tells me that it's better for me to die for nothing than for someone else to die for nothing. So if I can take the place of someone else, then I will, all the while arguing that they shouldn't be sending any of us there.

These feelings get exponentially stronger amongst small communities like SF groups, and SEAL teams where they will almost certainly personally know the person that goes in their place if they decide to quit. I can only imagine that's what kept Chris Kyle going.

And this is why I hold the armed forces community in high esteem. Douches like Eskimocopy is one of those fair-weather enlistee that demonstrated zero knowledge or reasoning for why soldiers do what they do, and pompously demonstrate his ignorance like he actually is proud of it.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I thought the kerfuffle over Ron Paul's tweets about Kyle's death were interesting. From http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ial-message-about-murdered-navy-seal-veteran/ -

Former presidential candidate Ron Paul is taking heat for a tweet he sent out Monday afternoon about the Navy SEAL who was killed at a Texas gun range over the weekend.

Chris Kyle, 38, a decorated Iraq war veteran, a former SEAL and author of “American Sniper,” was shot and killed Saturday. Police arrested Eddie Ray Routh, 25, a veteran authorities say may have a mental illness related to his military service.

In response to the news, Paul tweeted: “Chris Kyle’s death seems to confirm that ‘he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.’ Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn’t make sense.”

Paul has since walked back his criticism of Kyle, calling his death "a tragic and sad event." Interestingly, though, his own supporters' website - http://www.ronpaul.com/2013-02-04/ron-paul-chris-kyle-had-it-coming/ - still has a page bearing the headline "Ron Paul: Chris Kyle Had it Coming."

 

[cwjerome]

Your rationalization for your own contempt is bullshit. You may have enlisted, you may have worn the uniform, but you were never a soldier.

I'm glad you got out. I wouldn't want you next to me.

He was never a soldier, he was in the Navy. I think we can pretty much guess the situation though... joined up for the short term in relative peace for the education bennies and promptly promptly shat himself once serious action started going down. Which is all fine since he was probably on a PT profile the whole time and annoyed everyone in his unit with mealy-mouth liberalism.

I have general respect for those who are in the military and other occupations that require a fair amount hard work and sacrifice. I believe in the values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage, and believe the military is a place where these principles can really come out and are more common than in most occupations. This does not mean I worship the military or the people in it like Eskimospy pretends, I can fully criticize the military or anyone in it with no problem. I simply respect the institution and in a general sense the people in it.

What I won't do is be a modern-day Jane Fonda and criticize service members because they choose to join and do their job, which is basically what Eskimospy's diatribe amounts to.

 

[Nebor]

Paul has since walked back his criticism of Kyle, calling his death "a tragic and sad event." Interestingly, though, his own website - http://www.ronpaul.com/2013-02-04/ron-paul-chris-kyle-had-it-coming/ - still has a page bearing the headline "Ron Paul: Chris Kyle Had it Coming."

Sigh. Now my mind is filled with Ron Paul look-a-likes and deranged looking veterans performing Cell Block Tango from Chicago.

 

[sigurros81]

He was never a soldier, he was in the Navy. I think we can pretty much guess the situation though... joined up for the short term in relative peace for the education bennies and promptly promptly shat himself once serious action started going down. Which is all fine since he was probably on a PT profile the whole time and annoyed everyone in his unit with mealy-mouth liberalism.

I have general respect for those who are in the military and other occupations that require a fair amount hard work and sacrifice. I believe in the values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage, and believe the military is a place where these principles can really come out and are more common than in most occupations. This does not mean I worship the military or the people in it like Eskimospy pretends, I can fully criticize the military or anyone in it with no problem. I simply respect the institution and in a general sense the people in it.

What I won't do is be a modern-day Jane Fonda and criticize service members because they choose to join and do their job, which is basically what Eskimospy's diatribe amounts to.

:thumbsup:

 

[fskimospy]

And this is why I hold the armed forces community in high esteem. Douches like Eskimocopy is one of those fair-weather enlistee that demonstrated zero knowledge or reasoning for why soldiers do what they do, and pompously demonstrate his ignorance like he actually is proud of it.

I love how this thread has devolved into personal insults and a competition between you clowns as to who can straw man my argument the most. You guys are pathetic.

The personal motivations behind his return to combat are irrelevant as to his responsibility for the consequences of his choices. He is responsible for his actions and is open for criticism as to their results. People here see criticism of military members and fly into a rage without thinking. I don't.

 

[fskimospy]

He was never a soldier, he was in the Navy. I think we can pretty much guess the situation though... joined up for the short term in relative peace for the education bennies and promptly promptly shat himself once serious action started going down. Which is all fine since he was probably on a PT profile the whole time and annoyed everyone in his unit with mealy-mouth liberalism.

I have general respect for those who are in the military and other occupations that require a fair amount hard work and sacrifice. I believe in the values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage, and believe the military is a place where these principles can really come out and are more common than in most occupations. This does not mean I worship the military or the people in it like Eskimospy pretends, I can fully criticize the military or anyone in it with no problem. I simply respect the institution and in a general sense the people in it.

What I won't do is be a modern-day Jane Fonda and criticize service members because they choose to join and do their job, which is basically what Eskimospy's diatribe amounts to.

What you also won't apparently do is read my posts, because I never criticized him. But hey, you can do better than this. A fat guy that nobody likes? If you're going to waste everyone's time with stupid insults while not even bothering to bread the person who you are insulting, at least make your insults good.

 

[Incorruptible]

He was never a soldier, he was in the Navy. I think we can pretty much guess the situation though... joined up for the short term in relative peace for the education bennies and promptly promptly shat himself once serious action started going down. Which is all fine since he was probably on a PT profile the whole time and annoyed everyone in his unit with mealy-mouth liberalism.

I have general respect for those who are in the military and other occupations that require a fair amount hard work and sacrifice. I believe in the values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage, and believe the military is a place where these principles can really come out and are more common than in most occupations. This does not mean I worship the military or the people in it like Eskimospy pretends, I can fully criticize the military or anyone in it with no problem. I simply respect the institution and in a general sense the people in it.

What I won't do is be a modern-day Jane Fonda and criticize service members because they choose to join and do their job, which is basically what Eskimospy's diatribe amounts to.

+1!!! I never knew this but its nice to know the truth and who I am dealing with, This makes thing much more clear and understanding

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

+1!!! I never knew this but its nice to know the truth and who I am dealing with, This makes thing much more clear and understanding

What do you make of the fact that your hero Ron Paul has taken essentially the same (actually a more hostile to Kyle) position as eskimospy about this death?

 

[Incorruptible]

What do you make of the fact that your hero Ron Paul has taken essentially the same (actually a more hostile to Kyle) position as eskimospy about this death?

I disagree with what Ron Paul said and it was insensitive. Just because I support Ron Paul doesnt mean I disagree with everything he says

Ron Paul never said that he deserved to die, this is an outright lie and shameful from the articles that posted it

He simply quoted the Bible and questioned why you would take someone with PTSD to a gun range

You should check his whole response

Clarified for dvc on the lies from the media

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I disagree with what Ron Paul said and it was insensitive. Just because I support Ron Paul doesnt mean I disagree with everything he says

Ron Paul never said that he deserved to die, this is an outright lie and shameful.

He simply quoted the Bible and questioned why you would take someone with PTSD to a gun range

You should check his whole response

I did not say Ron Paul "said that he deserved to die." You made that up and attributed to me (just as you have done in the past). His supporters' website, however, does attribute just that sentiment to him: http://www.ronpaul.com/2013-02-04/ron-paul-chris-kyle-had-it-coming/

 

[Incorruptible]

I did not say Ron Paul "said that he deserved to die." You made that up and attributed to me (just as you have done in the past). His supporters' website, however, does attribute just that sentiment to him: http://www.ronpaul.com/2013-02-04/ron-paul-chris-kyle-had-it-coming/

I never said you did but the articles which reported on this did

 

[DominionSeraph]

Interesting, first Keith Ratliff then Chris.

Damn libruls, keeping FPSRussia from acquiring the weaponry Ratliff needed to protect himself. If only he had had more guns, I'm sure he'd be alive today.

 

[sigurros81]

I love how this thread has devolved into personal insults and a competition between you clowns as to who can straw man my argument the most. You guys are pathetic.

The personal motivations behind his return to combat are irrelevant as to his responsibility for the consequences of his choices. He is responsible for his actions and is open for criticism as to their results. People here see criticism of military members and fly into a rage without thinking. I don't.

Not sure how it's a personal insult. I've seen what you have posted in this thread, and it's pretty indicative that you're bitter about something and you're just passing it off as a fair criticism of a murder victim, so don't even kid yourself trying to defend what you've said is justified. What I bolded in your quote makes absolutely no sense in the context of our discussion of a soldier (Kyle), but in your little world, apparently it does. You failed every step of the way to comprehend why a soldier does what he/she does, and you yourself said you were once a soldier. Pathetic really. I'm sorry if you're butthurt, go ahead and pull a Ron Paul.

 

[fskimospy]

Not sure how it's a personal insult. I've seen what you have posted in this thread, and it's pretty indicative that you're bitter about something and you're just passing it off as a fair criticism of a murder victim, so don't even kid yourself trying to defend what you've said is justified. What I bolded in your quote makes absolutely no sense in the context of our discussion of a soldier (Kyle), but in your little world, apparently it does. You failed every step of the way to comprehend why a soldier does what he/she does, and you yourself said you were once a soldier. Pathetic really. I'm sorry if you're butthurt, go ahead and pull a Ron Paul.

I'm not bitter about anything, I greatly value the time I spent in the military and I would do it again in a second. This is just the latest in the series of completely unfounded accusations you guys feel the need to throw my way. You can always tell when someone has lost an argument when they try to pull out the butthurt card.

What I've said is completely justified and in fact should be completely uncontroversial to thinking people. Someone being a soldier does not absolve them of the consequences of their actions, particularly when they volunteered for it. Someone being a war hero does not make them free from criticism. I will continue to defend the right of people to criticize this guy all they want, and I find America's military fetishism to be really fucking creepy, well on display here.

You can continue to rage, try to invent ways to delegitimize my opinion, whatever. I'm very comfortable with it and I find it frankly sad that you are having so much trouble with it. Either you never understood the difference between defending the right to criticize and agreeing with criticism or you are symptomatic of the very problem I was referring to.

 

[momeNt]

Not sure why everybody is jumping on eskimo, he's said nothing to warrant the personal attacks. Yet everybody is entrenching deeper and deeper into their attacks on him and probably forgot why they are attacking him.

 

[Jaepheth]

From what some other veterans with PTSD are saying it seems gun ranges are cathartic for some sufferers, but playing with matches for others.
It really depends on the individual.

Personally, I'm filing the blame for this event under "Shit happens."
It's a pretty thick file. Seems 98.987% of all news gets filed there.

 

[Alex C]

Sigh. Now my mind is filled with Ron Paul look-a-likes and deranged looking veterans performing Cell Block Tango from Chicago.

Best thing I've ever read in all of P&N.

 

[davmat787]

Why should people be required to give respect to those who voluntarily did things they found reprehensible? That's ridiculous.

I don't really have feelings about this guy either way, but America's military fetishism has really gotten old/creepy to me.

If you think America's (in general) love or outright respect of those who serve is creepy, I can't imagine what you would think of Roman times when the powerful would lust for, and seduce even, those Gladiators who put on a particularly vicious display of killing prowess.

Point being, I can't really think of any civilization that has not glorified its warriors. Maybe someone else can, but by and large I am guessing this holds true.

At least you have the freedom to not show or have that respect if you wish.

 

[fskimospy]

If you think America's (in general) love or outright respect of those who serve is creepy, I can't imagine what you would think of Roman times when the powerful would lust for, and seduce even, those Gladiators who put on a particularly vicious display of killing prowess.

Point being, I can't really think of any civilization that has not glorified its warriors. Maybe someone else can, but by and large I am guessing this holds true.

At least you have the freedom to not show or have that respect if you wish.

I'm not aware of a single other western country that has a comparable attitude towards their military. This doesn't mean they disrespect their members, but they certainly don't glorify them the way we do here.

If you have a nation that you think matches up to the US I would be interested to hear it.

 

[tcG]

I don't see how doing what American soldiers do in foreign countries is in any way honorable or even right.

Being a soldier is only laudable if our foreign policy is designed to actually defend the country, not if it is designed to promote insider interests, causing deaths and instability in the process. Soldiers of most developed countries are little more than mercenaries who are ignorant at best, and morally reprehensible at worst.

 

[Nebor]

I don't see how doing what American soldiers do in foreign countries is in any way honorable or even right.

SPC Nelson Whitney tends to the wounds of a man injured in a building collapse in the aftermath of a hurricane that devastated Haiti.

You're so right. What a dishonorable dirtbag.

 

[sigurros81]

I don't see how doing what American soldiers do in foreign countries is in any way honorable or even right.

Being a soldier is only laudable if our foreign policy is designed to actually defend the country, not if it is designed to promote insider interests, causing deaths and instability in the process. Soldiers of most developed countries are little more than mercenaries who are ignorant at best, and morally reprehensible at worst.

You should go to the local VA and listen to some of the stories, you might learn a thing or two about life.