Attorney jobs increasingly outsourced to India

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Oh my! Do I feel edified and vindicated? You bet!

You all ATOT fanatics hush now and go back to your mundane what ever it is you do. We had a real live what ever he is drop in to illuminate our otherwise darkened view of law reality.

I had completely forgotten that our founders were die hard lawyers who knew we helpless followers were stupid. I some how figured they didn't give women the vote back then cuz them women folks were even more stupid than the stupid men. But, that aside, I can't imagine the founders creating the preservation of the profession subtly hid within the founding document The Lawyer and Accountant Job Security Act. I thought it novel when Reagan proposed it. Amazing they could do that. Simply amazing just how much more intellect those lawyer patriots had.

Ah well... Guess it is time to read another thread since this one is filled with the absence of cogent thought or some such as that. I leave, however, with the knowledge of my misconception... or was that in the Abortion thread... I'm so confused...

Weak post dude...

 

[CptObvious]

My $0.02:
The attorney jobs being outsourced are mainly temporary gigs - document review positions that were prevalent in New York City, Washington, D.C. and several other large legal markets. Most of the people employed at these companies were/are new law graduates unable to find work or solo practitioners trying to supplement their income. The gig can last anywhere from 1 day to several months, depending on how many documents can be reviewed. There are no benefits or job security, but the pay rate ($35/hr in NYC and DC) made it attractive for grads with six-figure student loans.

The work itself is rather simple for a lawyer or even a paralegal with some experience, but monotonous. It involves reviewing documents (internal memoranda, e-mails, etc.) and flagging those that might be relevant to ongoing litigation. The improving technology has made outsourcing inevitable. Nowadays all documents are scanned in a system and can be accessed anywhere, and computers with OCR can scan documents for a 'first pass' and eliminate extra work.

Whatever the Indian attorneys are making now - maybe $15 an hour from pure speculation on my part, is a fortune over there, so companies can attract the best and brightest from there vs. whoever they can get for that much here. Personally, I think it's part of a trend that could hurt the American economy as a whole, rather than just looking at short-term savings by big law firms, but it's not going to stop soon.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: stateofbeasley
Law is different than medicine or engineering.

Law school is a joke of a requirement. Even the professors admitted that most of what they taught was so abstract that it was useless in the real world. Some more technical areas, like tax, are an exception.

Likewise, licensing requirements are an expensive joke. The bar exam has almost zero relevance to actual law or practice. The multistate portion tests very old common law that is largely obsolete, and the essays are little more than a repeat of 1st year subject examinations. You basically take a 10 week cram course costing $2500-$3000 and then take the bar. Any first or second year law student could pass this exam.

There is a place for academic thought in the law, but not everyone needs this gobledegook. Physicians have internships and teaching hospitals. Lawyers have some shallow summer associateships if they are lucky, but no rigorous professional training.

What experience do you have with law school, the bar exam, and profession in general? I'm curious if this is your first hand opinion or merely a repeat of what you've heard from other people.

I went to law school and am licensed in two states. When I say law school is academically easy, and the bar exam a pathetic excuse of a licensing requirement, I do so out of personal experience.

Everyone from practicing lawyers to the law professors knows it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard professors say how useless the bar exam is.

 

[Underclocked]

As I read Safeway's remarks, it becomes even clearer why we need to flush lawyers out of lawmaking. It hardly takes a self-proclaimed "smarter than thou" to write laws. It only takes lawyers to bypass or abuse clear intent. It only takes lawyers in congress to feather their own nests. It only takes lawyers to render the justice system near useless (outside of their own interests).

I suppose almost all lawyers live inside their bubbles of superiority.

After all, the rest of us are so stupid.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: stateofbeasley

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
No matter where you get a degree, unless you pass the bar for a given state, you are not allowed to practice within that state infront of a court.

What it seems:
You have is contract type law handling/paperwork that is being outsourced.
The papework is being reviewd, analyzed for large corporations that would normally have legal AIDES handling verification.

This is the OP's answer. Lawyers are still doing just fine, and while new graduates are finding things tough in this economy that's true about every single profession. As long as you don't go to a shit law school, you're fine. If those guys in India aren't members of the state bar association the best they can do is document reading, etc... things that were shit jobs for lawyers anyway.

The hint that this story is alarmist is that you're forced to say 'increasingly' without providing numbers.

It's not just low-end document review.

Legal research, drafting of contracts, and other due diligence work are going offshore.

Even document review itself is practice of law in many circumstances. If an Indian attorney is marking a document as Relevant to issue X, Y, or Z, he is making a legal determination on that document. If an Indian attorney is marking a document as Protected by Privilege, he is making a legal determination on that document. These are judgments based on application of current law.

your an alarmist dude!! Knock the crap off!! Sheese....

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: stateofbeasley
Topic Title: Attorney jobs increasingly outsourced to India
Topic Summary: Wage abritrage makes many U.S. law degrees increasingly worthless

Well since this is yet another industry out of control ($200hr) I have zero sympathy.

Dave,
Until they out source the courts I think most civil and criminal law will stay here. I think the only bit that can be outsourced would be research which is usually a paralegal function anyhow. BUT notwithstanding the OP link, I think the ABA will sort out anything that is untoward going on.
$200 per hour... wow :+)

That must be the average of large firms.

My friends daughter left an intellectual property specializing firm to clerk for a Magistrate in Federal Court cuz she made more there than in the firm. Guess that may not be the same everywhere or in every case...

$200 per hour is low for most big firms.

The lawyer is probably only making $75-100 of that.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Underclocked
As I read Safeway's remarks, it becomes even clearer why we need to flush lawyers out of lawmaking. It hardly takes a self-proclaimed "smarter than thou" to write laws. It only takes lawyers to bypass or abuse clear intent. It only takes lawyers in congress to feather their own nests. It only takes lawyers to render the justice system near useless (outside of their own interests).

I suppose almost all lawyers live inside their bubbles of superiority.

After all, the rest of us are so stupid.

Sigh. This argument gets really old.

First, the issues you raise apply to anyone that puts his interests above the law, attorney or not. Remove lawyers from the legislative process and the same greedy bastards will figure out a way to get what they want. This is the nature of authority and power, not the law profession.

Your argument is especially aggravating since it only ever applies to lawyers and not the other professions. Compared to doctors, the average person is stupid when it comes to medicine. Compared to engineers, the average person is stupid when it comes to engineering. In the same way, compared to lawyers, the average person is woefully ignorant of the law and the legislative process. This isn't because lawyers think they are superior, just like engineers and doctors don't consider themselves to be superior. This is because lawyers spend a significant amount of time studying the law (shocking, I know). This is no different than any other specialty, profession, or job.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: stateofbeasley
I went to law school and am licensed in two states. When I say law school is academically easy, and the bar exam a pathetic excuse of a licensing requirement, I do so out of personal experience.

Everyone from practicing lawyers to the law professors knows it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard professors say how useless the bar exam is.

Thanks for the post. I must say I'm not really surprised by this at all.

I am currently in law school, but my undergraduate degrees are in civil engineering and business. Compared to my engineering studies, law school is extremely easy. I also think the bar exam is similar to the Fundamentals of Engineering exam that I took as an engineering student on the road to becoming a Professional Engineer. The exam was quite easy, at least for someone that had been studying civil engineering for four years. I don't recall the overall pass rate, but I do know it is very high. The exam doesn't prove that I'm a competent engineer or much of anything, really.

 

[Underclocked]

daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Underclocked
daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

I still contend that you will have the same problems, because it is a result of power not profession. The liars, thieves, and power hungry fools will simply be engineers, doctors, and accounts (of which there are already plenty).

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that there are few professionals more dangerous than accountants. They can do anything you want with numbers and still make the books balance.

 

[Underclocked]

Well, there is probably some basis in law for that balancing act.

 

[Safeway]

Daniel1113, saying that law school is easy is a bit of a stretch. To get into a good program, you need a good undergraduate GPA and a good LSAT. Once in the program of choice, if law school were as easy and as trivial some here believe it to be, then there would be a 100% retention rate, not counting voluntary withdrawals. That isn't the case.

I, too, came from a top engineering program. I consider law school to be much different, but not necessarily easier. In undergrad, I spent maybe an hour or two a day outside of class going over materials and doing homework. No more or less during exams and finals. With this minimal time investment, I pulled off a high GPA. In law school, I read 100 to 120 pages per day, going over materials for roughly 6 hours a day. During the weeks leading up to examinations, and during the final study week, I worked the material over and over, drastically increasing the time I spent reviewing the material. One shot on an examination - one final grade - is all that you have to take away from a course.

Is law school easy? No. Is law school technically difficult? No. Is law school time consuming and frustrating and stress inducing? Yes.

And to those that still disregard the 'ignorant public' argument, thank you. You helped prove my point.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Safeway
Daniel1113, saying that law school is easy is a bit of a stretch. To get into a good program, you need a good undergraduate GPA and a good LSAT. Once in the program of choice, if law school were as easy and as trivial some here believe it to be, then there would be a 100% retention rate, not counting voluntary withdrawals. That isn't the case.

I, too, came from a top engineering program. I consider law school to be much different, but not necessarily easier. In undergrad, I spent maybe an hour or two a day outside of class going over materials and doing homework. No more or less during exams and finals. With this minimal time investment, I pulled off a high GPA. In law school, I read 100 to 120 pages per day, going over materials for roughly 6 hours a day. During the weeks leading up to examinations, and during the final study week, I worked the material over and over, drastically increasing the time I spent reviewing the material. One shot on an examination - one final grade - is all that you have to take away from a course.

Is law school easy? No. Is law school technically difficult? No. Is law school time consuming and frustrating and stress inducing? Yes.

And to those that still disregard the 'ignorant public' argument, thank you. You helped prove my point.

You pretty much outlined what I meant by easy. There is a decent amount of reading and work required, and it is stressful due to the single final exam and whatnot, but the material itself isn't technically difficult, at least compared to what I'm used to. This is just my opinion, of course.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Underclocked
daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

I still contend that you will have the same problems, because it is a result of power not profession. The liars, thieves, and power hungry fools will simply be engineers, doctors, and accounts (of which there are already plenty).

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that there are few professionals more dangerous than accountants. They can do anything you want with numbers and still make the books balance.

Good accountants are also the ones responsible for ensuring taxes get paid, bringing down corrupt companies like Enron and Worldcom, and providing valuable protection and direction for industries all over the world.

 

[BoomerD]

If you haven't seen this yet...you should:

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/266

I'm against outsourcing ANY job from the USA for the sole purpose of increasing profits.

If it's OK to outsource IT work or "tech support," why is it any different to outsource some aspects of legal work? or Accounting? Economics? Engineering? or any "non-hands on" type of job?

Any company that outsources jobs from the US to India, or China, or ?? should pay heavy tarrifs on the products of that outsourcing, even if it's not "real goods" produced.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Underclocked
daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

I still contend that you will have the same problems, because it is a result of power not profession. The liars, thieves, and power hungry fools will simply be engineers, doctors, and accounts (of which there are already plenty).

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that there are few professionals more dangerous than accountants. They can do anything you want with numbers and still make the books balance.

Good accountants are also the ones responsible for ensuring taxes get paid, bringing down corrupt companies like Enron and Worldcom, and providing valuable protection and direction for industries all over the world.

I'm glad you understand the point I was making. There are good accountants and there are bad accountants. A bad accountant can be just as damaging as a bad lawyer. The same with engineers, doctors, etc.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Phokus
WHAT careers?

Seems like they're trying to outsource EVERYTTHING. First manufacturing, then software engineering, now lawyers. Even some medical professions are being outsourced (I.e. radiology).

edit: oh yeah and i've witnessed lots of outsourcing of accountants/financial professionals as well.

offshored. you wouldn't mind if it was outsourced. hiring outside legal counsel is outsourcing and is common practice.




anyway, the state just decided we need another public law school because there isn't one in the DFW area. we're graduating too many lawyers as it is and now we're going to have more. wtf.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Underclocked
daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

How do you propose that people resolve their differences if we don't have lawyers? Do the lawyers just swoop down out of nowhere, getting involved in people's business and muddling things up, or do people go to them first and often offer to pay them for their lawyering services?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ElFenixanyway, the state just decided we need another public law school because there isn't one in the DFW area. we're graduating too many lawyers as it is and now we're going to have more. wtf.

Doesn't the ABA accredit the law schools? If so, what good is the ABA for lawyers? If the ABA isn't looking out for lawyers' interests and their quality of life, then what good is it? Perhaps it's time for lawyers to shun the ABA and to form a new organization that will advocate for their interests, part of which should include cutting the number of law school seats in half. Let's make it more like the medical profession where production of new attorneys is closer to demand for them.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Underclocked
daniel1113, use of the word ignorant and use of the word stupid are two very different things. You seem to understand that very well.

My focus on lawyers is simply because I believe they (as a group) do far more damage to our country than any other profession. Otherwise, you would be totally correct.

I think it would be a vast improvement to have more ignorant engineers, ignorant accountants, and ignorant Xs involved in lawmaking.

How do you propose that people resolve their differences if we don't have lawyers? Do the lawyers just swoop down out of nowhere, getting involved in people's business and muddling things up, or do people go to them first and often offer to pay them for their lawyering services?

In many cases, the lawyers do exactly that. They FIND people with grievances and persuade them to sue...Look at the ADA lawsuit-chasing bizness...Attorneys who, even though they aren't handicapped themselves, travel around looking for violations of the ADA, then sue the businesses...and of course, offer a settlement amount less than they've sued over. :roll:

 

[Safeway]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
anyway, the state just decided we need another public law school because there isn't one in the DFW area. we're graduating too many lawyers as it is and now we're going to have more. wtf.

http://untsystem.unt.edu/lawschool-2/index.html

This will be a Tier 4 school, Tier 3 at best. Graduates will come out expecting decent money and will be forced to take $50,000/year positions, if that.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Safeway

Originally posted by: ElFenix
anyway, the state just decided we need another public law school because there isn't one in the DFW area. we're graduating too many lawyers as it is and now we're going to have more. wtf.

http://untsystem.unt.edu/lawschool-2/index.html

This will be a Tier 4 school, Tier 3 at best. Graduates will come out expecting decent money and will be forced to take $50,000/year positions, if that.

i dunno if you've been reading the press, but basically there are about 25% of lawyers making ridiculous gobs of money coming right out (though it looks like the huge firm system is about to collapse, on the other hand people have probably said that for a while), and the rest are in those $50,000/year positions

that web site is horrible. errors all over the place. and it looks like it's just a bunch of 'we're jealous of houston' going on. wtf. i thought dallas ignored us down here.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Doesn't the ABA accredit the law schools? If so, what good is the ABA for lawyers? If the ABA isn't looking out for lawyers' interests and their quality of life, then what good is it? Perhaps it's time for lawyers to shun the ABA and to form a new organization that will advocate for their interests, part of which should include cutting the number of law school seats in half. Let's make it more like the medical profession where production of new attorneys is closer to demand for them.

states can accredit their own law schools if they want. california does that. texas so far hasn't.

 

[Safeway]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Safeway

Originally posted by: ElFenix
anyway, the state just decided we need another public law school because there isn't one in the DFW area. we're graduating too many lawyers as it is and now we're going to have more. wtf.

http://untsystem.unt.edu/lawschool-2/index.html

This will be a Tier 4 school, Tier 3 at best. Graduates will come out expecting decent money and will be forced to take $50,000/year positions, if that.

i dunno if you've been reading the press, but basically there are about 25% of lawyers making ridiculous gobs of money coming right out (though it looks like the huge firm system is about to collapse, on the other hand people have probably said that for a while), and the rest are in those $50,000/year positions.

75% of students graduate from bad law schools. I will enjoy $160,000.

 

[polarbear6]

Getting a law degree from India is very easy if you want OP, And there are no law schools in India(IDK what they are called ). The universities offer a 3 year long course .. If you pass it you get a LLB degree, Then you get attached to a senior lawyer(may be the bench or what ever they call them). Only then you will be called a lawyer

But there is a tiny incy wincy problem.... This is approximately the size of our constitution http://elearningstuff.files.wo....com/2007/09/books.jpg
If you have the confidence that you can mug up the whole book .. come here and be a lawyer ..

I suggest instead of whining that the good jobs are going to some other country .. Why not try to improve the quality of your work huh ?? And may be lower the price tag ??

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm amazed at the persistence of this belief that most lawyers do well and that more than a relatively tiny percentage of law school grads come out with six figure job offers. I'm pretty sure that, traditionally, the six figure job offers only went to the top 50% of the class at the top 20 law schools, and that was before the depression.