Attn: Car Audio Enthusiasts...I need some advice

[virtuamike]

Ummm, people use kickpanels to install component speakers. With coax everything is one piece so it goes in the door. Kickpanels let you place your components together without having to drill out door. Plus putting the tweeters on the floor instead of up by the windshield helps if they're too bright, problem with a lot of tweeters.

And kumanchu, how can you compare a Pioneer 7300 to a Kenwood z919? You're talking about a $300 price difference!! Make things even and compare the Pioneer Premier DEH-920R. Only reason I brought up the 7300 was because I was assuming mpg was on a tight budget and didn't want to spend the money and go all separates.

Nationally syndicated magazine? Am I supposed to be impressed with that? Come on now, you all know how it works. They always rate products that give the most features and are the most innovative at the lowest price the best. That's why PC World rates the GeForce MX higher than a GTS GF2. You expect that to fly with the hardware junkies here? Same applies to car audio. I can honestly give a rat's ass about what a nationally syndicated magazine has to say, they probably get paid to write the crud they publish. More often then not it's morons writing to morons. The same guys that would take a Geforce MX over a GTS.

Of course you wouldn't want to take my opinion to seriously. Check user reviews here:
Link
And if that's not enough, walk into a shop and ask what they think about the Aiwa. Or go read the reviews on the hardware sites. Ah hell, just check the review Anandtech has:
Link
Main points: steering remote isn't the greatest. Some people have probs with skipping. Long loadup time. Not the same playback functionality as PC (no playlist support!?!, only randomize files in directory not whole CD, lag between seeking and even going to the next track). Come on now, you get more functionality out of a Rio!

And trust me, if you've ever owned anything made by Aiwa, you'd know that the build quality definately leaves something to be desired. Who's in charge of their product quality? I've had a walkman go south after 2 months (Japanese model that they don't even have in the States, remote died and charger went screwy), the CD on my sister's stereo tweak out, and my gf's system go weird every once in a while (clock and radio randomly resets, trouble reading CD's).

 

[Zucchini]

Ummm, people use kickpanels to install component speakers. With coax everything is one piece so it goes in the door. Kickpanels let you place your components together without having to drill out door. Plus putting the tweeters on the floor instead of up by the windshield helps if they're too bright, problem with a lot of tweeters.

I'm confused, kick panels are the factory speaker holes right?

 

[Doodoo]

Kick panels are the things by ur foot in the corners.

 

[kumanchu]

<< And kumanchu, how can you compare a Pioneer 7300 to a Kenwood z919? You're talking about a $300 price difference!! Make things even and compare the Pioneer Premier DEH-920R >>



as I stated above:
a Kenwood eXcelon KDC-X615 or KDC-715S go for around 350 and would beat the pants off of a pioneer DEH-P7300.

if you are going to quote me, don't mess it up.

if i am considering Car Audio equipment i don't go by something reveiwed by l33t haxxors of anandtech, i go by the stereo junkies opinions
Car Sound Peoples Choice
note that it was VOTED in there by &quot;CAR SOUND's editors and installer advisors make their picks for the top products of the new year&quot;. now let me see, proffessional installers opinions... 'nuff said.



<< You expect that to fly with the hardware junkies here? Same applies to car audio >>



heh, this statement alone would be scoffed at by audiophiles across the nation. Rules are different outside anandtech, you should learn to deal with them.



<< And trust me, if you've ever owned anything made by Aiwa, you'd know that the build quality definately leaves something to be desired. Who's in charge of their product quality? I've had a walkman go south after 2 months (Japanese model that they don't even have in the States, remote died and charger went screwy), the CD on my sister's stereo tweak out, and my gf's system go weird every once in a while (clock and radio randomly resets, trouble reading CD's). >>



no i haven't owned anything made by AIWA, but i trust these people with thier top picks. if pro's can't chooose their own equipment, then who can? as electronics goes, there are still lemons. no matter what brand you buy, there will always be lemons. ever received defective computer hardware before? among other hardware i've received a defective geforce 2 gts, but you don't see me whining about nvidia or creative? i've recieved bad tbirds, bad abit's, etc. the list is long, as i have been a &quot;hardware junkie&quot; for a while and been cycling through hardware for a few years now. do i knock on AMD for a bad chip? you can't stereotype a brand (pardon the pun), and as it seems, you have only had experience with the lower end aiwa units. i've seen cheapo pioneer headunits fry, and smoke. i've seen LOTS of car audio equipment go bad. do i blame it on the BRAND? if i did, then just about every brand of car audio equipment sucks. nothings good, and nothing is worth buying. failure rates among brands is about the same, jensen and pyramid being a bit more outstanding. otherwise its all roughly the same. its too bad you got lemons, but don't be bitter. life goes on.



<< I'm confused, kick panels are the factory speaker holes right? >>


no, they are custom made speaker boxes that would fit in the far front lower corners of your car. they are generally angled towards the driver. When made properly they look like they are supposed to be there from the factory. a common problem with using kickpannels is that for people that drive stick, they no longer have that convenient footrest, and find the area around the pedals to become cramped. some companies have pre-made kickpanels for specific cars.



<< Ummm, people use kickpanels to install component speakers. With coax everything is one piece so it goes in the door. Kickpanels let you place your components together without having to drill out door. Plus putting the tweeters on the floor instead of up by the windshield helps if they're too bright, problem with a lot of tweeters. >>



other reasons to use kickpanels:
1.) they even the soundstage by making the speakers approximately the same distance from your ears, especially since the tweeters would be placed with very different distances, the left tweet being about 1.5-2 ft away, and the right tweet being a little over 3.5 ft away. when you separate components, and they are on the same amp channel, audio processors h
2.) you can't always fit the speakers you want in your door.
3.) when you separate components, and they are on the same amp channel, audio processors that calculate time delay get &quot;confused&quot;.

not all kickpanels house both midbass driver and tweeter, but some only still have the midbass driver. tweeters are highly directional, and since your legs and a potential passengers legs would drastically cut their efficiency, people still mount them closer to ear level, as that is optimal. a way around the time delay factor has been found by using compression drivers.

and once again, kickpanels are NOT feasible within the specified budget.

i agree that rear speakers are of nominal importance, most competitors kill their rear speakers when competing, or don't have them at all. they produce a fill type of effect that gives the feeling of being &quot;surrounded&quot; by sound, you don't actually hear any definition from them. the only people that would truly hear them would be people sitting in the back seat. also a 6x9 will be able to produce more bass than an identical 6.5&quot; round midbass driver, BUT the sacrifice is sound quality. circular speakers give the most accurate sound, having oval speakers adds distortion. the reason that viperoni brought up about them holds very true. like i said, they are only for fill, as long as they can offer that &quot;fill&quot; effect, they are doing their job, tweeters can compensate for the loss of integrity accross the range, and everyone knows that subs can always produce more bass.



<< That means that you could use almost any crappy speaker, but it's always a good idea to use all the same speaker (like get polk 6.5's in the back if you have polk components in the front kinda deal), to keep the timber the same across the soundstage. >>



i think that you are a little confusing in this statement, i think what you are trying to say is that you should keep to the same model speaker, changing sizes doesn't matter much, and may actually help. this is what we call voice matching. different speakers have different voices. size does not alter the voice of a speaker. shape, construction, materials, and design change the voice of a speaker. this keeps the range flatter, not the soundstage ^_^.

 

[virtuamike]

<< if i am considering Car Audio equipment i don't go by something reveiwed by l33t haxxors of anandtech, i go by the stereojunkies opinions >>



I'm sorry, I didn't know Anandtech reviews weren't respected here.
Audio junkie review



<< as I stated above: a Kenwood eXcelon KDC-X615 or KDC-715S go for around 350 and would beat the pants off of a pioneer DEH-P7300.

if you are going to quote me, don't mess it up. >>


KDC-715S Review
Is this the same 2 low-voltage RCA output HU that will beat the pants off a 3 high-voltage RCA output DEH-7300?
BTW here's a link



<< you can't stereotype a brand (pardon the pun), and as it seems, you have only had experience with the lower end aiwa units. i've seen cheapo pioneer headunits fry, and smoke. i've seen LOTS of car audio equipment go bad. do i blame it on the BRAND? if i did, then just about every brand of car audio equipment sucks. nothings good, and nothing is worth buying. failure rates among brands is about the same, jensen and pyramid being a bit more outstanding. otherwise its all roughly the same. its too bad you got lemons, but don't be bitter. life goes on. >>


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the Aiwa qualifies as high end. Or maybe it's high end by default, since they can't engineer a better unit. And does buying low end mean that the product is predisposed to be defective? Hardly think my $200 Walkman qualified as low end (full metal case, mic and tuner record capabilities, rechargeable, full digital controls, compact form factor). And you should tell the families of the people killed by Firestone tires to not blame it on the brand. I'm sorry I got lemons too, especially since I'm a perfect 3 for 3 as far as Aiwa is concerned. Of course after talking to people, doesn't sound like I'm the only one. And yes, I've been the victim of computer hardware gone bad. Had a Maxtor get bad sectors after 2 weeks, a Quantum after 15 months. I've had CD-ROMs go bad, SCSI cards fry, modems fry, fans fail, power supplies stop working. It's just that I've learned that buying quality parts makes a big difference as far as reducing hardware failures go.



<< proffessional installers opinions... 'nuff said. >>


I see, so the people that get paid to sell this stuff and install this stuff vote it the best. Just because a lot of people buy the stuff doesn't make it great. It's the first MP3 car player they've ever seen, what are they going to say? That it sucks compared to something else out there? And can't forget the editors. I have lots of faith in editors, especially when they rate a Geforce MX higher than a GTS. Or rate Sony Wega higher than Panasonic SF.

My point is that when I want an honest opinion about something, I'm going to ask a consumer. Someone that spent money on it, not someone that gets money because I bought it from them.

 

[kumanchu]

<< I see, so the people that get paid to sell this stuff and install this stuff vote it the best. Just because a lot of people buy the stuff doesn't make it great. It's the first MP3 car player they've ever seen, what are they going to say? That it sucks compared to something else out there? And can't forget the editors. I have lots of faith in editors, especially when they rate a Geforce MX higher than a GTS. Or rate Sony Wega higher than Panasonic SF. >>



installers aren't paid to sell. plus these guys are pro's, they aren't sitting around at electronics stores, they have clientelle paying them upwards of $300,000 per car. and since when were all editors of all magazines the same? editors don't sell equipment either. they are editors, i never knew that selling audio equipment was in their job description.\



<< Is this the same 2 low-voltage RCA output HU that will beat the pants off a 3 high-voltage RCA output DEH-7300? >>



this doesn't matter! he can't afford an amp! so what are 3 outputs that he's not going to use have to do with this thread? the kenwood pushes 22W rms, and i beleive the pioneer pushes 16W rms. and if he WERE going to have a system that takes advantage of a 3rd output for subs, that third output would be 2v, the other two are the 4v outputs on the pioneer. plus in real competition, no one uses that 3rd output, its just distortion for us. on the other two channels no matter what the output voltage is we use line drivers, which push the signals to 8v or 15v depending on what we want. instead we get headunits we like; go with it; and ignore features that are of little to no consequence.



<< Go with an alpine head unit if possible, I swear by 'em! The pioneer that I have right now is suck, not that all are, but ones I have dealt with are. I'm going back to alpine as soon an I can scrape the dough together. >>



wow there is a consumers opinion eh?



<< Someone that spent money on it, not someone that gets money because I bought it from them. >>



and who gets blamed FIRST when something goes wrong? the INSTALLER! wow! revelation: installers know best about longevity, frequencies of lemons etc. would they recommend a product that would be comming back to them with complaints? its as much a hassle for the installer to have to do their work twice / troubleshoot.



<< KDC-715S Review
>>



your link goes to where its rated 4.75 out of 5. doesn't that mean its a good unit? eh? with people saying stuff like:


<< this is an awesome deck , the d-mask+ wows people who ride with me, i have always loved kenwood, i started with an old krc-580, then had a krc-s200, krc-405, now this deck >>



sooo now.. next question?

 

[virtuamike]

<< this doesn't matter! he can't afford an amp! so what are 3 outputs that he's not going to use have to do with this thread? >>


I gathered from this thread he has 800-900 to spend. So I figure $350 for head, $200 for amp, $150 for fronts, $120 for rears, and there's still leftover for wires and install. Then he still has one preout for a sub later on.



<< plus these guys are pro's, they aren't sitting around at electronics stores, they have clientelle paying them upwards of $300,000 per car. >>


Wow, that's a lot per car. Guess me and my $300 disqualifies me as an educated consumer. My question is, if you have $300,000 to spend, why even bother with an MP3 HU? I would use that money and buy a house.



<< wow there is a consumers opinion eh? >>


Here's a consumer opinion about the Aiwa
Hmmm, 20-30 sec seek time isn't too good. But 2 minutes?
And not to stereotype a brand, but . . .
Ok ok, so maybe the Alpine opinion is a little off, they're not that great anymore are they? 10 years ago they were the best, now they is suck

Ok ok, so the Kenwood is good, I'm not saying that it's terrible. It's just that to be better, shouldn't you be everything that the competition is and more? Alright, so I haven't found reviews on the DEH-7300. But I do know that on paper it looks great, and if it's anything like their previous models then it'll definately perform to spec.



<< And who gets blamed FIRST when something goes wrong? the INSTALLER! wow! revelation: installers know best about longevity, frequencies of lemons etc. would they recommend a product that would be comming back to them with complaints? its as much a hassle for the installer to have to do their work twice / troubleshoot. >>



Let's see, they nominate the only 2 MP3 car decks on the market largely available for retail. Hmmmm, if I'm unhappy with the Aiwa, what else are they going to give me? Hello, I'd like to exchange this Aiwa. What? No one else makes these things? Point is that people are going to keep them and complain, not bring them back and complain, because they don't have many other options.

Also interesting how they nominate the only MD recordable car deck too. Seems they place emphasis more on innovation than anything else, even if it is imperfect.

 

[virtuamike]

Just curious, but anyone else want to jump in?

 

[mpg]

All these head units play AM/FM correct?

 

[Mears]

I ignored a lot of the posts since some of them seemed to be quite useless. I'm not going to go into telling you how to build up your system liked you asked because there are so many different options that could be made and depending on your tastes my ideal setup could be quite different from yours. However, I will tell you a few things:

Don't buy from CC or BB. Their stuff is all overpriced and you pay a lot for installation. Trust me, if you can build a computer, with a little time and effort you can also setup your own system. I would recommend the forums at www.elitecaraudio.com or www.termpro.com There you can look around at reviews for components in your price range and good online dealers and also get information on how to install stuff. I'm also going to suggest that you stay away from Pioneer head units and the regular sony line. I know many people are going to flame me for this, but these are probably are going to be the same people who think that RF and JL are the best sub makers ever. I've seen the preouts of two different pioneer decks fry and the low end sony stuff is just junk. Maybe look into a mid-line kenwood or lower end nakamichi.

 

[kumanchu]

<< Ok ok, so the Kenwood is good, I'm not saying that it's terrible. It's just that to be better, shouldn't you be everything that the competition is and more? Alright, so I haven't found reviews on the DEH-7300. But I do know that on paper it looks great, and if it's anything like their previous models then it'll definately perform to spec. >>



a major difference between computer hardware and audio equipment is that you don't really do more than 1 thing with audio equipment, listen to it. just cause you have more features to play around with doesnt make it better. i don't design systems to be fun to play with, or that have high fps in their nifty little screen. i design systems around the best sound i can make or loudest sound i can make. i've competed in sq and spl. you don't score points for having a nifty screensaver or anything on your headunit.

and about the aiwa: it was just a THOUGHT. i'm not pushing the unit, just something to THINK about when looking at headunits. i've mentioned many times that people should buy what they think sounds best, and take all recommendations with a grain of salt.

and yes all these headunits have tuners for am/fm; as far as tuners go, the kenwoods i've mentioned and the pioneer that virtualmike has suggested have excellent tuners, if you get a cheap headunit, you get a cheap tuner, and if you listen to the radio, that always sucks.



<< Let's see, they nominate the only 2 MP3 car decks on the market largely available for retail. Hmmmm, if I'm unhappy with the Aiwa, what else are they going to give me? Hello, I'd like to exchange this Aiwa. What? No one else makes these things? Point is that people are going to keep them and complain, not bring them back and complain, because they don't have many other options. >>



is this saying the kenwood 919 is bad? i would think that the unit is quite the opposite. i'm not trying to say the aiwa is amazing, but there has to have been a good deal of reasons for them to recommend it, if it were just for its mp3 functionality, then why not the rockford fosgate box too?



<< Wow, that's a lot per car. Guess me and my $300 disqualifies me as an educated consumer. My question is, if you have $300,000 to spend, why even bother with an MP3 HU? I would use that money and buy a house. >>



no i never meant it made you an uneducated consumer, but that there is still a lot more for you to learn. and as far as those type of cars go, we installers get a car and the owner says, &quot;make it look good, sound good, etc&quot; and i'll pay you. installers choose all of the equipment going in, they don't get paid more for getting different equipment over another. the only way they get more of these type customers is to please their current customer. why would they choose something inferior? especially with a budget like that? and i'm aware that you may not agree spending money in this fashion, but when you can make a decision like that on a whim then more power to you. i'm pretty sure these people aren't living in houses valued at $300,000.

 

[kumanchu]

/me cheers for velodyne subs
/me looks at his IDQ subs and cheers some more

mears has good advice. i'd take it into account ^_^

but in my opinion, letting a qualified person install major components is always a good idea, headunits can be done by anyone with a knife, screwdriver, solder, electrical tape, wiring harness, and install kit. but if you are going to go out of factory spec sizes/shapes on speakers and installing amps, let a qualified installer do it.

 

[mpg]

I bought 2 pioneer 180W front 2 pioneer 200W reer a fosgate 100Wx4 AMP (these three from Best Buy) and KDC-715S Deck (Circuit City). Plus I got the dynamat setup. Also its being installed by Circuit City, worked out good. About $1.3K ish altogether. Thanks for the help!

 

[mpg]

honestly the fosgate's BB had didn't sound that good compared to the pioneer that i bought.

 

[The Stigenator]

try the Aiwa Headunit that is also an MP3 player.

 

[virtuamike]

Reason the Rockford was nominated was because it wasn't CD-based. Uses solid state memory, just like portable MP3 units. Also notice that hard drive units didn't get mentioned.

CD based is definately the way to go. Media is cheap, large established base of people with burners. That's why the Kenwood and Aiwa got nominated. Are they perfect? No. The Aiwa and the Kenwood can definately improve as far as MP3 playback goes. But they are innovative. They are the first to the market. And that's why they get #1. Not because they're good but because they're the first CD based HU's. From reviews looks like the Aiwa has better MP3 playback than the Kenwood, of course Kenwood has better SQ.

And you're right, I have a hell of a lot more to learn about car audio. I just started on my own car system, $500 into it so far. Been researching for the last year reading every possible review, looking through every car audio forum. Talk to the installers, sales people, everyone that could possibly have an opinion. And although I get into a hell of a lot of arguments, I get a lot out of it. I don't think Pioneer is the best. Hell, I wish I went with Clarion Pro Audio. Still feel that as far as features vs price, Pioneer is the best. Kenwood Excelon and Sony ES great too. But come on, who doesn't like the dolphins? Chicks dig dolphins.

I still think the Kenwood 715s is one preout short. I would've gone Excelon series, gotten the 3 4V preouts. Looks like with the current setup if you want to add a sub you'll have to use one set of RCAs into the 4 channel for the speakers and the other set for sub. Lose fader control via HU, have to manually adjust from amp. Still, good choice on the purchase especially the Dynamat. Shops have it cheaper than BB though, looks like they just started carrying the stuff.

 

[Doodoo]

Personally...i wouldn't let CC or BB touch my system. And dun believe everything u read in those magazines.

 

[virtuamike]

<< And dun believe everything u read in those magazines. >>


My sentiments exactly. Reading opinions by installers in mags w/ editors and hearing what installers have to say when you walk into a shop are two different things entirely.

Also I don't think I'd mind too much letting someone at CC or BB work on my system as long as they sound competent. As far as shops go they're only as good as the people that work at them, but that doesn't mean a good installer working at a place like BB is going to do a bad job regardless of how much he knows. Couple of installer buddies of mine wouldn't mind working at BB just for the discounts (during the PS2 Christmas craze knowing anyone that worked at BB was a good thing). I even brought my car in to BB to have my MB Quarts installed just because I didn't have all the tools up here at school to saw out the speaker basket, didn't terribly mind.

 

[kumanchu]

acutally to wire a sub, you can retain fader control easily, you just use rca splitters, and split the signal to the rear. and in anycase, a third preout is really over rated. i've found that they cause more distortion than just splitting a signal, and have found it better to invest in a line driver.

not to mention, that once you tune your system correctly, you pretty much don't ever have to do it again. and you don't loose fader control as it can be tuned from the amp. yes, its harder, but once you tune your system correctly; you never have to touch those settings again untill you change your system. Granted they are fun to play with, but not really necessary ^_^.

but as long as mpg is happy with what he gets, thats all that matters eh?

oh and i dont' think it was rated #1, it was just &quot;picked&quot; they listed in alphabetical order my manufacturer i think.. ie thats why i said &quot;one of the best&quot;..

ooooO! and i forgot to mention, have the installers over at ciruit city mount your amp to an amp rack, don't have them just screw it into the back of your seat. even if its a very simple amp rack, it will look much better.

 

[mpg]

Ok I will, one question that has been lingering in my head. I bought an amp setup kit, and my amp is supposed to goto all my speakers 100W x 4, will the amp kit (i think its a fosgate) be able to do this?

 

[Doodoo]

The third preout isn't overrated at all....and why would you even need a line driver? If you set ur gains right and have decent voltage preouts..u shouldn't need one. A line driver is jus another peice of unneeded equipment that can introduce noise.

If thats 100x4 rms...if u got 4 guage power wire u should be good.

 

[virtuamike]

Line driver is what you need when you don't have 4V preouts. 2V is usually not decent but whatever floats your boat.

And the reason you don't want to go with an RCA splitter is because your sub output is now dependent on how you adjust your fader. The more you fade to the rear, the louder it gets along with the rear speakers. In short this is the Mickey Mouse way of doing things. It is not a clean install. And I honestly can't see how having 3 preouts would cause more distortion especially when the highest end models usually come standard with 3 (even the Kenwood Z919 although it's only 2V). If it did cause that much distortion, why doesn't Clarion go 2 preouts with its DRX9575RZ? Why not tell everyone to use an RCA splitter? This is equivalent of saying to someone doing home theater that they don't need a sub output. Just run the sub in line with the main speakers.

I think an installer would say go clean. Get the 3 4V preouts. Do all your tweaking from the HU. Don't even mess with the gain controls on the amp, and definately don't get a line driver. Cuts down on the number of components. Cuts down on time spent putting everything together. And in the end if done right it should cut down on money spent.

If the amp is RF it should be 100Wx4 rms @ 4 ohms. Given the price of the entire package that's what it better be.

 

[virtuamike]

Here's some physics 101. V=IR. Voltage is constant along the line. When you split the line you increase resistance, so what happens is I decreases. Well guess what I is? I is current, and since P=VI, you now have a corresponding decrease in power. When you add a line driver you're increasing V to compensate. And in somehow doing all that math the sound is somehow cleaner? Increasing resistance, decreasing current, and then increasing voltage causes distortion to go away? You be the judge. I say the 3rd RCA output matters.

 

[kumanchu]

<< Ok I will, one question that has been lingering in my head. I bought an amp setup kit, and my amp is supposed to goto all my speakers 100W x 4, will the amp kit (i think its a fosgate) be able to do this? >>



the amp setupkit probably includes a fuse, power wire, ground wire, and a remote wire. this is what is necessary to get an amp working in a car; and i don't believe that it includes speaker wire, but cc might be throwing that in for free, or using very cheap generic wire that they have in the shop, i would inquire about this, and do as you judge best; as differences in quality of speaker wire in the guages you would be using is debatable.



<< The third preout isn't overrated at all....and why would you even need a line driver? If you set ur gains right and have decent voltage preouts..u shouldn't need one. A line driver is jus another peice of unneeded equipment that can introduce noise. >>



only truly CHEAP line drivers introduce significant amounts of noise, in general they have proven to be quite reliable and clean. and if you are doing all of your adjustments from your headunit, you are introducing MUCH more distortion opposed to tuning your system from either your amps or processor. oh and not to mention this third preout is 2v in almost all cases i have seen, and if we are talking about your so called &quot;decent voltage&quot; then why not run 4v or 8v? the answer is, their installers don't even use them, they are there as a feature to be put on a list. they aren't there for their functionality, or else it wouldn't be a single preout, it would be another SET of 2, as a lot of pro's mount subs into doors, and can create some stereo separation (even if it is miniscule).



<< If you set ur gains right >>



of course you would set your gains right, who in their right minds wouldn't?



<< Line driver is what you need when you don't have 4V preouts. 2V is usually not decent but whatever floats your boat. >>



if you took a volt meter to the rca's (if they WERE using rca signal cable) of pro systems you will notice that they are running 8v, or sometimes 15v (depending on where you measure and what LINE DRIVERS they are using). how do they acheive this with 4v preouts? eh? ever wonder why the third preout for the subs always seem to be at 2v? thats because pros don't use them. they are a feature for a regular consumer to look at when comparing features vs cost, not sound vs cost. they CAN be nice, but loose their functionality quick.



<< And the reason you don't want to go with an RCA splitter is because your sub output is now dependent on how you adjust your fader. The more you fade to the rear, the louder it gets along with the rear speakers. In short this is the Mickey Mouse way of doing things. It is not a clean install >>



not true. take note of gain noted above. also when you tune your system correctly, then you don't monkey around with the fader anymore. and in anycase, when you can afford to get a good set of subs, and a good amp to drive it, its time to get a processor anyway ^_^. in addition you have only stereo preouts, one for the left channel, one for the right; your fader doesn't work any more, its all in tunning either the gain on your amps or the levels on your processor.



<< Here's some physics 101. V=IR. Voltage is constant along the line. When you split the line you increase resistance, so what happens is I decreases. Well guess what I is? I is current, and since P=VI, you now have a corresponding decrease in power. When you add a line driver you're increasing V to compensate. And in somehow doing all that math the sound is somehow cleaner? Increasing resistance, decreasing current, and then increasing voltage causes distortion to go away? You be the judge. I say the 3rd RCA output matters. >>



here is some circuit analysis 1 for you:
splitters use parallel wiring: I increases, R decreases, V would decrease, but you have to note that headunits/processors are INDEPENDANT VOLTAGE SOURCES, so no matter what they will run thier specified voltage, they are not DEPENDANT sources as you somehow have assumed; true, headunits aren't meant for lots of seperations (lots of spliters), but hey here steps in mr. linedriver.

P=VI yes i know. amps don't respond to the input power, they respond to changes in potential ie, the V, and ignore input current. the formula P=VI when used in operational amplifiers (in our case the car audio amp) V is constant, I is modulated according to the input V and that is how it will drive a speaker to create sound. the line driver isn't there to &quot;compensate&quot; its there to make better definition. not to mention that V and I in YOUR scenario are still linearly related, so P would still be the same.

i have never actually been a judge, but judges seemed to like my car when i was competing or so my trophies would say. So did mtx when i was competing for them in spl, and ID when i was competing in sq.

Once again i would like to reiterate: if he's not going to be using it anyway, who cares? you must always take into consideration whether or not he's going to use it. in this particular case he ISN'T, nor does he HAVE to have that extra pre-out for future upgrades.

 

[virtuamike]

Hmmm, I think we're talking about completely different equipment here. No, I haven't actually taken a voltmeter to the RCA's. I don't have much experience with pro equipment. All I've seen is the consumer level stuff. What I do know is that most consumer level RCA is rated at 2V. The next step up are the 4V preout units. Yet at the same time I've never seen a HU that has 4V FR outputs and a 2V sub output. Either all 3 are 2V or all 3 are 4V.

I thought the whole time here we were talking about cost. Obviously if you want to run 8V or 15V then you're going to need line drivers, but is this honestly something people do at the consumer level? My point is that going from 2V to 4V makes an audible difference, better to do that from the HU then to go buy a line driver. If I'm that concerned about saving money by skimping and getting 2V what makes you think I can afford to buy top quality line drivers? From your perspective you're saying the simpler the source, the less distortion right? I personally don't see how that can be cost effective. You're right, I'd definately go line drivers if I want to build the mother of all systems. But that's not what we're talking about on this budget are we? Like you said yourself, can't even fit kickpanels in at this budget so why even mention line drivers? We're not talking sound comp, we don't need 8v line driver. But if you can get 4v compared to 2v for $50 more than why not? Compared to a high end unit, how much more will that $300 HU distort?

OK I goofed on the circuit diagram I had drawn out. I drew it out and had the splitter on the AMP rear output, not the HU rear output for some reason. So it had rear speakers and sub on the same output. In that case it'd definately sound horrible. Yes, I understand that amps and HU are independent voltage sources. So are line drivers for that matter.

On a further note I thought that line drivers make your system sound better because you can set your amp gains down and not push them so hard, thus getting cleaner sound. But with 2V outputs from the HU wouldn't you have the gains on the amp set higher than if you had 4V outputs?