^ Looks like $270 AR, $260 AP to me
:thumbsup: Very nice! I'm guessing AMD is trying to draw down stock in preparation for the R9 390(?) launch.
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:thumbsup: Very nice! I'm guessing AMD is trying to draw down stock in preparation for the R9 390(?) launch.
lehtv
Elite Member
I feel like you didn't really do your research on this one, mfenn. I can only facepalm at Antec's decision to back up a Platinum unit with only 3 year warranty. This is no doubt a result of cheaping out on the capacitors - including a CapXon 85°C on the primary side, and another CapXon (among multiple Japanese ones) on the secondary side. Remember, CapXons are third tier in JonnyGuru's book, even worse than Teapos (which aren't bad but lose to Japanese ones in reputation).
I honestly don't recommend people buy this, even at a sale price. I recommend changing this week's unit to XFX XTR 650W $95 ($70 AR)
Compared to Antec EA-650 Platinum
- built by Seasonic instead of FSP
- all-round Japanese top quality caps, none of these CapXon time bombs
- 5 year warranty instead of 3
- fully modular instead of not modular at all
- four PCIe cables instead of two, could run 970 SLI stock easily
- Gold rated, but has massively better low-load efficiency and there's literally no difference in efficiency at 100-700W judging by the graphs (see Techpowerup reviews linked below)
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Antec/EA-650_Platinum/5.html
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/XFX/XTR650/6.html
Simply put, this is a much better purchase. I would happily pay a 50% premium for the XFX XTR unit over the EA-650 Platinum. And at current prices, there are several other units that are also better picks:
Seasonic S12II 620W $70 (5 year warranty, top grade caps, no rebate hassle; the only thing you lose is a bit of efficiency)
Antec HCG-620M $80 (essentially a copy of M12II 620W, so it's the same as above but modular)
Corsair HX650 $79 AR AP (Gold rated, top grade caps, CWT built, proper zero RPM idle, modular, 7 year warranty, Corsair customer service - what's not to like? amazing unit for the price)
Rosewill Capstone 550W $40 AR (lowest I've ever seen this unit; it's a nice Super Flower build and while it's slightly small for a 290X, it'd be the perfect choice for a GTX 970)
XFX TS 550W Gold $55 AR (as above, but Seasonic-made)
Antec TP-750C $60 AR (another Seasonic with top grade caps; not necessarily the quietest unit at load but you can't really get a top quality 750W unit for any cheaper than this; not modular though)
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lehtv
Elite Member
Also, for anybody wondering if there's a catch with that Asus R9 290X being so cheap... check TPU's review. It either runs quiet or cool - not both. Quiet means 94°C load temp (yes, really - it will almost throttle).
I would bite the bullet and grab an XFX R9 290X DD for $302 AR AP. Lifetime warranty. Or a Zotac 970 for $307 and without a rebate hassle. Also lifetime warranty with registration.
I would bite the bullet and grab an XFX R9 290X DD for $302 AR AP. Lifetime warranty. Or a Zotac 970 for $307 and without a rebate hassle. Also lifetime warranty with registration.
This argument is the sort of fear, uncertainty, and doubt line of reasoning that you see repeated over and over in PSU, but for which you never see any sort of real technical backup. Those arguments are echoes of the Taiwanese capacitor plague of 2002, but really lack any justification today.
The reason that Antec used 85C caps is because when you are working with a high efficiency, you simply don't need huge temperature ratings. Case in point, at 100% load, there is only a 5.4C temperature rise.
So I stand behind this recommendation 100%. There's certainly nothing wrong with the other units that you linked of course. The TP-750C in particular dropped in price last night and is definitely at good unit at $60 AR.
Characterizing the ASUS R9 290X DCu II's noise profile as out of line with other standard R9 290X's is incorrect. It's 42 dBA in the "performance" profile. Compare it to the MSI R9 290X Lightning, PowerColor PCS+ R9 290X and MSI R9 290X Gaming and it matches or beats them.
lehtv
Elite Member
No, the reason was that Antec wanted to differentiate from others' Platinum units by offering a cheaper alternative built from cheaper parts and from a sub-par OEM. You get what you pay for, though - as we've seen, an equally inexpensive Gold unit built by a better OEM from high end parts is actually more efficient and also better in every other way. Antec tried to paint a picture that Platinum doesn't have to mean expensive, but what they forgot to paint was the part where Platinum doesn't have to mean quality either.
Also, if a Platinum unit is perfectly fine with 85°C caps, then why have only 3 year warranty? Why not show customers that you have confidence in your own product by backing it up with proper 5-7 year warranty?
Not that I don't disagree with you about the capacitors - I'd rather defer to JonnyGuru than you on matters of PSU components - but XFX XTR and HX650 are still considerably better units for the price. The warranty alone makes them worth it, and the added low-load efficiency and modularity are nice bonuses. If you're intending to maximize value for money with this $1000 build, EA-650 Platinum is not the best unit you could've recommended. However, I can understand why you'd be disinclined to make changes because you view it as "good enough".
I didn't characterize its noise profile out of line, I was talking about thermal efficiency which is better on almost all other aftermarket 290X's. This allows all other 290X's to achieve both quiet and cool operation, whereas Asus 290X DCII is one or the other. Cards like Lightning, Gaming, PCS+ and XFX DD don't have to heat up to reference 94°C to acheive quiet operation.
EDIT: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...5702-powercolor-r9-290x-pcs-4gb-review-7.html
°C
Code:
PowerColor PCS+ 63
Gigabyte WF3 OC 71
XFX DD 72
Asus DCII, perf 78
Asus DCII, silent 94dBA
Code:
Asus DCII, silent 43.2
PowerColor PCS+ 45.9
Gigabyte WF3 OC 47
Asus DCII, perf 51.8
XFX DD 52.5Asus in performance mode:
versus XFX: +6°C, -0.7 dBa
versus Gigabyte: +7°C, +4.8 dBa
versus PowerColor: +15°C, +5.9 dBa
XFX, Gigabyte and PowerColor all run considerably cooler. Gigabyte and PCS+ also run considerably quieter. PCS+ in particular is in a league of its own, I can't see how you could possibly think Asus DCII even comes close to matching PCS+.
It doesn't matter how quiet Asus runs in silent mode because it sacrifices all of its thermal headroom. To achieve the same quiet 43.2 dBa on other cards, the user can customize the fan profile and still end up with plenty of thermal headroom.
EDIT2: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/r9-290x-lightning-performance-review,3782-7.html
MSI Lightning is similarly on a whole other level than Asus DCII, there is no comparison.
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Essence_of_War
Platinum Member
If as you point out, they're trying to differentiate as a platinum unit for less cost, then that 3 years of extra warranty (which has to be included in the price of every product) is eating into the margins on being a lower-cost platinum alternative.
It's highly speculative to map directly from length-of-warranty to quality-of-product in the commodity market.
JG has sort changed on this recently also. See recent reviews of the CWT's new build of the Corsair RM850 and Andyson's N700 Titanium
For example:
lehtv
Elite Member
Lower initial cost, yes - but what about long-term cost? If a customer wants a low initial cost product, Platinum is not an option anyway. The whole point of Platinum is to reduce long-term running costs over Gold, and secondarily to further improve thermal and noise characteristics. Long warranty gains its appeal from that same long-term thinking, so it's counter-intuitive for a unit to be highly efficient but not guaranteed to work for any longer than your typical 80Plus rated unit. Someone needs to tell Antec that you can't reap the benefits of Platinum efficiency over an otherwise equal Gold efficient unit in just 3 years.
I didn't go from length-of-warranty to quality-of-product, I went the opposite direction. I judged the quality of the product primarily from the OEM that made it, the capacitors used (both the 85°C rating, and the brand where I deferred to JonnyGuru's judgment), and the evidently sub par low load efficiency (clear evidence that the brand and OEM only cared about passing the certification requirements rather than actually having high efficiency in the real world).
The short warranty is simply congruent with these observations. It's typical for units using CapXon capacitors to only have 3 year warranty, so Antec's decision to back it up with only 3 year warranty was no doubt a result of not having enough confidence in their product to give it 5 years instead. And the point was also that plenty of units that are the same price or cheaper come with 5 years of warranty and thus offer better long-term value even if they were only Bronze efficient.
That's interesting, thanks. Does this mean JonnyGuru also stops scoring against CapXons?
Also, I'd have more confidence in CapXons if Antec gave their unit 5 year warranty - but as I've stated this isn't the only issue with the unit value-wise. Even with 5 year warranty, it isn't the best purchase you could make for $70 AR at the moment - it still loses out to XFX XTR 650W on low-load efficiency, zero RPM mode, modularity and number of PCIe connectors... and I'd still prefer a 5 year warranty with 105°C rated caps over 5 year warranty with 85°C rated caps with all other things being equal.
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Essence_of_War
Platinum Member
I don't know that they've explicitly said "no scoring against CapXon" but from the most recent reviews, my impression is that they're no longer scoring against electrolytics by the big chinese manufacturers: Ltec, Teapo, OST, and Capxon without additional good reasons. I could be wrong or not understood perfectly, and that could be dependent on the overall build quality or be subject to other conditions that haven't been fully ironed out yet.
No, the reason was that Antec wanted to differentiate from others' Platinum units by offering a cheaper alternative built from cheaper parts and from a sub-par OEM. You get what you pay for, though - as we've seen, an equally inexpensive Gold unit built by a better OEM from high end parts is actually more efficient and also better in every other way. Antec tried to paint a picture that Platinum doesn't have to mean expensive, but what they forgot to paint was the part where Platinum doesn't have to mean quality either.
Also, if a Platinum unit is perfectly fine with 85°C caps, then why have only 3 year warranty? Why not show customers that you have confidence in your own product by backing it up with proper 5-7 year warranty?
That's not how warranty expenses work, at least not in publicly traded companies that follow GAAP. The length of a warranty is not a direct statement about how much "confidence" a company has in a product, nor does it make any direct claim about the quality of the components contained therein.
The way warranty expenses work is that you take the estimated rate of failure on a per unit time and multiply that by the length of the term and the cost of repair. On a unit such as a PSU which is likely to be replaced rather than repaired, your cost to repair is essentially your manufacturing cost plus shipping. That expense is then accrued whenever you sell the unit, and as such must be included in your margin calculation.
Obviously, by the equation for the warranty expense, there are 3 ways to lower warranty cost:
1. Reduce the failure rate estimate. This is hard on a new product based on a new platform because your estimates are essentially just guesses. It's also hard to adjust this estimate after the fact for a given product without taking write-downs.
2. Reduce the manufacturing cost. Reducing the raw materials costs is one way to do this, but obviously that doesn't necessarily have a direct correlation to component quality because there are many ways to reduce component cost.
3. Reduce the warranty term. This is straightforward and easy to predict the effect of.
So you can see how if you're a product manager who wants to hit a certain price point, reducing warranty length can be a valuable tool because it is adjustable all the way up to product launch, even if you have a ton of inventory already sitting in a warehouse. That doesn't necessarily mean that the product is of lower quality.
This is simply a factually untrue statement based on the data presented in the source that you cited in reply #1055 (TPU). Here's the data:
ASUS DCuII (performance) 78 C / 42 dBA = 1.86 C/dBA
MSI Lightning 71 C / 42 dBA = 1.69 C/dBA
PowerColor PCS+ (performance) 68 C / 49 dBA = 1.38 C/dBA
MSI Gaming 79 C / 41 dBA = 1.92 C/dBA
The DCuII isn't the best, but it's not the worst either, which is why I take exception to your claim in reply #1055 that it's somehow a card with a "catch".
Let me make one thing abundantly clear: I do not make the claim that my weekly build maximizes value in a mathematical sense (i.e. is the most efficient build given perfect market information). However, I do make the claim that it is a good build with solid parts, and that you won't end up with a bad machine if you following. In other words, it the best build that I can find at the time that I make it. I am human, and I do miss some deals and prices will change for people looking at the market after the fact.
That's why I don't objection to people offering alternatives (in fact I welcome it). I do take objection when people make claims, such as the ones made in replies #1054 and #1055, that the parts I recommended are somehow bad or should be avoided.
lehtv
Elite Member
In the part you quoted, I wasn't talking about how warranty expenses work.
All I'm saying is - as long as there's a correlation between warranty and quality in power supplies on the whole, the customer can look at the warranty length and expect, on average, lower quality from a product with short warranty than from a product with long warranty. It doesn't matter to the customer exactly why the company chooses 3 year instead of 5 year warranty - the fact the they did choose 3 year is enough to raise doubt. And when doubt has been raised, the customer reads a review to see if said doubt is unfounded, and lo and behold, in a 3 year warranty unit he finds 85°C CapXons instead of 105°C Nippon Chemi-Cons - which implies, but does not prove, that in this particular case there is a direct relation between length of warranty and quality of product.
Correct, it doesn't follow necessarily. Yet as I said above length of warranty and quality tend to correlate in the PSU world. The three parameters you listed can be set in various ways for a given warranty cost. From the customer's point of view, the best case scenario is option 1, i.e. when the failure rate estimate is reduced without undue increase in manufacturing cost. This results in a maximally reliable unit that's covered by long warranty (since costs didn't need to be cut by reducing the warranty term), and competitively priced against units with shorter warranty.
Techpowerup tests on an open test bench, not in a closed case. In Tom's Hardware's tests (also linked earlier), Asus DCII and MSI Gaming are roughly on par on the test bench, just as in Techpowerup's tests, with MSI winning by a small dBa margin. But when tested inside a case, Asus runs 9°C hotter and 0.4 dBa louder. There's the catch again. No, I'm not saying Asus 290X is a bad card per se, I'm saying if there's an XFX or a PowerColor PCS+ or a Tri-X or even an MSI Gaming for a similar price, then one of those is a better purchase.
All of this is quite obvious and completely fine by me. edit: actually, the part about not maximizing value wasn't obvious, the rest was.
Yet given better market information than what you had when you pieced the build together, those parts are bad purchases for what they cost and they should be avoided. No, they are not bad parts per se, they are bad parts per dollar compared to what else is available, and that is the only basis for my criticisms. But given what you say about not trying to maximize value here, I take back what I said in #1054 about changing this week's PSU.
I still recommend against buying the EA-650 Platinum and the 290X DCII for reasons stated, because else it wouldn't make any sense for me to recommend alternatives. Arguing against X is the flip side of arguing in favor of Y when X and Y are direct competitors.
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Making decisions based on uncertainty and doubt is not something that I have ever recommended. Take the warranty for what it's worth at face value, which is a length of time in which the product will be replaced, but don't try to draw conclusions which simply cannot be drawn from a warranty period.
It is unfortunate that a customer who read reviews of a high efficiency PSU with with 85 C capacitors would likely find similar fear-based arguments them. It's a good thing that some PSU reviewers like JonnyGuru are critically evaluating the "conventional wisdom" that many PSU reviewers blindly spout.
Look at it this way: if somebody posted a build with an i3 4330 and a NH-D15, you would probably tell them that they were spending way too much on their cooling system. Likewise, spending extra for 105C capacitors on a unit which doesn't touch 60C in 40C ambient is probably a waste of money. That doesn't mean that the 85 C capacitors are lower quality or more likely to fail.
The DCuII was the best value R9 290X at the time of making my list. It is not a bad card with a "catch" as was claimed in #1055. We can argue sources back and forth for days, but the fact is that the conclusions drawn in #1055 simply did not follow from the source provided. I hope that you can understand how that could grate on me one post after being accused of not doing the research.
Certainly there are cards with more efficient cooling systems, but they would cost you more based on the prices at the time that I made the post. Since the DCuII isn't somehow a lemon with a horrible cooler, but is instead in line with standard cards, it is the best value for an all-around system.
I think that you're misunderstanding me here. I did not say, "I don't try to maximize value". I said that I could notguarantee that my build meets the mathematical definition of maximum value. I absolutely do try to maximize value, but I am human and I can't see everything.
This is a bit of a false dichotomy. There is a difference between:
(a) offering a (better) alternative due to shifting prices, a different use case, or something that I just plain old missed
and
(b) making claims that the parts are bad recommendations derived from lack of research and which should not be purchased even at sale prices as were made in #1054 and #1055.
I welcome (a) but will vehemently defend my recommendations in the face of (b). That's not becasue I want to win value arguments or that I'm "disinclined to make changes," but because I do put effort into researching and recommending solid parts and I do believe that someone could take my build every week and be happy with the result.
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lehtv
Elite Member
There is no uncertainty and doubt in me that warranty and quality correlate to a degree where, instead of simply taking warranty "at face value", it makes sense for a customer to consider its implication on quality when making a purchase decision. Units which don't perform well in reviews tend to have short warranties, and units which do perform well in reviews tend to have long warranties, simple as that.
I already told you - the use of 85°C CapXon capacitors and an OEM less reputable than Seasonic implies but does not prove that in this particular case (that being the case of Antec EA-650 Platinum), there's a connection between quality-of-product and length-of-warranty. This is as far as could be from "drawing a conclusion" while still having an opinion.
Bad analogy. Any cooler that is not Intel stock cooler is overkill. It is a well established fact of the past decades of Intel overclocking that it is voltage, not temperature, which kills processors.
With power supplies, my intention here is not to prove anything either way, but to work with likelihoods. Units using 85°C capacitors tend to have shorter warranties than units with 105°C capacitors. Units with CapXons or Teapos tend to have shorter warranties than units with Chemicons or Rubycons - to name a few. If warranty period was a mere cost decision, we would expect it to be independent of what capacitors are being used. (In fact, given that long warranty costs more than short warranty, and that higher rated capacitors cost more than lower rated ones, we would expect units using lower rated capacitors to have longer warranties than units using higher rated capacitors because you wouldn't need to cut costs twice to reach the same cost of manufacture+warranty. But this is slightly besides the point here.)
No, I cannot understand that. The TPU link #1055 was only intended as a source for the claim that the DCII runs either quiet or cool. In calling it a "catch", there was implicit the assumption that other cards did not suffer from this dichotomy, an assumption I've since proven using other sources. In so doing I also disproved your assertion that the DCII "matches or beats" Lightning, PCS+ or even Gaming. It's worse than all of those, and it's worse than the XFX that I recommended in its place.
It is clearly not in line with "standard cards" such as the ones we've compared it to in this thread, PCS+ and Tri-X in particular, but MSI Gaming, XFX DD and Gigabyte WF3 as well. I don't intend to go over the previously posted detailed comparisons all over again.
My intention has been to post a few alternative recommendations, but I feel that to do so, I must also post critiques of the parts you've recommended, parts which my alternative recommendations compete with. If there's nothing to criticize in your recommendations, then there's no need for an alternative. That's all - there's no need for you to admit obvious things like you're only human, and I have no need to try to squeeze confessions of failing at being perfect, nor do I demand your build to meet any "mathematical definition of maximal value". That would be silly.
However, I would like some clarification on the part "I can't see everything". Are you admitting here, that EA-650 Platinum was not the best value at the time you posted - that had you noticed the XFX XTR or HX650, for instance, you would've recommended those instead? If so, why so vehemently defend the EA-650 Platinum?
I don't mind if you defend your recommendations, that's fair enough by me. However, re-reading the post #1054 I can understand why you'd get defensive - sorry if it came across like an attack. #1055 - not so much, the language there was pretty neutral.
Most people probably would be happy with the result, yes. But that's hardly an achievement deserving of the effort put into the build, don't you think? You could simply post a link to an iBuyPower $1000 PC and achieve the same result, more or less. No, I've always believed the point of this thread to be much more than just recommending a "solid build that someone could take and be happy with". The point has been to cater to an audience conscious about quality and value for money. To me, the build has always been a pretty close approximation of the maximum in either category that you can get for a $1000 gaming PC - and I congratulate you for that. Naturally - without even really thinking or making a conscious choice about it - I voice my concerns if the parts you've recommended seem to deviate further away from that maximum than they do normally. I don't do this to "police" you, I do it to complement your efforts.
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Essence_of_War
Platinum Member
Who cares what kills processors in the longterm? The reason we recommend aftermarket coolers at all is that they allow you to not-throttle while applying more voltage to stabilize your overclock, so it was a perfectly good analogy. If you're not overvolting to stabilize an overclock, and why would you with a locked-down i3, your CPU is going to run pretty cool unless you're AVX'ing the hell out of it or double your computer case as a cat-den.
lehtv
Elite Member
As you say, you can't overclock an i3, thus your reason for recommending aftermarket cooling does not apply. Therefore, any aftermarket cooling is overkill, and singling out Noctua D14 as being overkill makes no sense, therefore bad analogy. It was implicit in mfenn's analogy that other aftermarket would not be overkill for an i3-4330, when that is clearly untrue. EDIT: Just to be clear, the use of "overkill" here only has to do with reliability, stability and lifetime - the same metrics by which capacitors in power supplies are judged.
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Please refer to the figures posted in #1057 and #1062 and see if you can understand the basis for my claim that it is in line with standard R9 290X's. Note that I am not trying to convince you to accept my reasoning here, it is clear that I will not be able to do that. I only want you to understand the basis for mine.
I've already stated in three different posts that I am happy to accept that there are good alternatives to my choices and I welcome you to post them. That includes all of the parts that you have listed. I am defending the EA-650 Platinum because you made the claim that is a bad power supply, even when on sale. I disagree 100% with that assertion for the reasons stated.
My analogy was regarding spending more on a part which has little added benefit versus an alternative. The primary benefit of aftermarket cooling on an i3 is to get rid of the high load noise level of the stock Intel cooler (65W version). Many aftermarket coolers achieve this at a much lower price point than an NH-D15.
Overall. it seems to me that we have very different fundamental perspectives on things like warranties, the meaning of the measurements posted in #1057, #1058, #1062, #1063, and the way to provide constructive criticism. It's extremely unlikely I am going to convince you, and you are likewise not likely to convince me.
Thank you for understanding how post #1054 could (and was) taken as an attack and I accept your apology. I respect and appreciate your opinions as well as the time that you have put into this, but we are differing on such a fundamental basis that I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
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lehtv
Elite Member
All I see in #1057 is your misinterpretation of my post, which I then cleared up in #1058.
#1062 - sure, given what you had researched about the card at the time, I can understand why you'd want to defend it against the claim that it's not in line with other 290X's.
Excuse me but you have no basis to say that I've claimed EA-650 Platinum is a bad power supply. This is what I've actually said regarding the EA-650 Platinum:
"I honestly don't recommend people buy this, even at a sale price."
Does not say: EA-650 Platinum is bad or unreliable.
Does say: Its sale price simply does not make it good enough value to be worth considering with respect to the competition (= the units posted in #1054). Specifically, I am talking about the current sale price in the current market, not some general sale price in a general market. Context.
"only 3 year warranty [...] no doubt a result of cheaping out on the capacitors"
Does not say: EA-650 Platinum on the whole is bad, or even that the capacitors are bad.
Does say: In a 5 year warranty unit, you'd probably see higher rated capacitors from a more expensive OEM.
"Antec tried to paint a picture that Platinum doesn't have to mean expensive, but what they forgot to paint was the part where Platinum doesn't have to mean quality either. "
Does not say: EA-650 Platinum is a bad quality unit.
Does say: EA-650 Platinum uses lower quality parts, is from a generally lower quality OEM, and/or lacks other quality-related features (modularity, long warranty, zero RPM fan) when compared to many units whose wattage and price it competes against.
Okay. It seemed to me you were making an analogy regarding the connection between reliability and temperature, since that would've been fitting when talking about the reliability of capacitors with different temperature ratings.
I'm not sure if these perspectives are in any way fundamental, they seem more like value-for-money related opinions or habits which we've acquired from experience and research. Opinions can change, and should change.
I'm not very happy that you assume an attitude that's near-immune to being convinced. I'm even less happy that you assume me to have a similarly limited attitude, despite all the patience, attention to detail and interest in evidence and reasoning that I've shown here.
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vailr
Diamond Member
mfenn always takes the position that saving $10 on two sticks of memory is more important than purchasing equivalent specced but lower voltage memory. Or similar kinds of purchase recommendations (ignoring the power requirement differences and related heat output) when it's nVidia vs. AMD video cards.
Which seems muddle-headed, to me at least.
You cannot reference another member's moderator status when they are posting as a member. This is both unfair and irrelevant to any member discussion at hand.
Perknose
Forum Director
Which seems muddle-headed, to me at least.
You cannot reference another member's moderator status when they are posting as a member. This is both unfair and irrelevant to any member discussion at hand.
Perknose
Forum Director
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Thank you.
I have re-read your post #1055 and notice that you did mention that those alternatives are perhaps better but cost more. I was hot under the collar from your previous post and did not read the that one carefully enough.
Thank you for clarifying your intent. We are in agreement that the EA-650 Platinum is not bad, but that better alternatives existed at that time and that price point. I mentioned the TP-750C @ $60 AR in particular back in #1056.
The specific phrase that made me think that you were claiming the EA-650 was a bad unit was "I honestly don't recommend people buy this, even at a sale price." (Emphasis mine). The use of the indefinite article (a) instead of the definite article (the) lead me to believe that you were talking about general market conditions versus this specific market, which would typically be indicated with the definite article.
You have now clarified that you were talking about the specific market and not a general one, so I take no issue with your post. It is my fault that I wasn't specific about my interpretation of your post in the beginning but instead based my argument on an inaccurate interpretation of your post.
I was frustrated when I posted those things, and should not have done so. For that I apologize. I absolutely do appreciate and respect your contributions.
lehtv
Elite Member
Alright. Thanks for the chilled out response.
True enough, I agree that using the definite article would've been unambiguous. I tend to make simple mistakes like this, perhaps partly due to the fact that English is only my second language, and partly due to not always considering how I might be misinterpreted. I'll try to avoid creating confusion in the future.
mfenn said:
True enough, I agree that using the definite article would've been unambiguous. I tend to make simple mistakes like this, perhaps partly due to the fact that English is only my second language, and partly due to not always considering how I might be misinterpreted. I'll try to avoid creating confusion in the future.
Markfw
Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
Mods are volunteers, we don't make a dime.
Let me tell you, that would be a huge raise! :awe:
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