Attempt at "cheapest viable Facebook / browser build".

[Torn Mind]

That was my understanding, too. That the Haswell iGPU and the AMD FM1 iGPU were of similar performance.


I'm not sure why you feel that way about Linux. Linux Mint is mostly usable about like Windows 7.
Surely, the user will be able to figure out how to launch Firefox, and possibly even how to update regularly.

Power management in Linux, or trying to set max CPU clocks, involves editing text files and even editing them correctly doesn't mean the setting are retained after rebooting. That's the sort of "in-between" power user who doesn't totally know Linux but wants some of the Windows customizability at his disposal, and conveniently so. I can do that in Windows by fiddling with Power Options, and chances are, the setting will stick.

I can offer a warranty. Since it's free, though, I think something like 30 days is more appropriate.

Ok, so now we've moved the goalposts from a web-browsing / Facebook-level machine, to video-editing, in order to justify an i3? LOL. The A4-3420 web-browses just fine, a friend of mine deployed one for his GF just recently. (Edit: Ok, technically, he deployed an A4-3300, which is mostly the same APU, just running at 2.5Ghz instead of 2.8Ghz.)

Anyways, the SSDs in question that I ordered, benchmark REALLY slowly in write speed, but that might be because they are 90% full. (I had to reduce the test size, because the free space left on the drive after Win10 64-bit 1607 was installed, wasn't enough to run the default test size in CDM.)

Edit: Ok, maybe I'm behind the times, and more people edit video these days than they used to. (YouTube, Facebook, Cell Phone, etc.)

I remember editing video (after capturing it) @ NTSC analog rates, on a 1.4Ghz Athlon XP CPU. (That's back when you had to own a capture card, to do anything with video.)

Surely, a decent dual-core could handle 1080P video.

Edit: But if we're speccing a video-editing machine, AMD FX CPUs are tops there. Forget a sub-standard i3 CPU, you should go with an FX-6300, 6350, 8300, 8320e, etc.

FX breaks the budget in more ways than one. I don't see many prebuilt FX PCs. Two, they need a discrete GPU. Finding all that for ~$200 bucks, and also accounting for the $$$ that flows out from power consumption.

Facebook/web-browsing will have some other general purpose tasks associated with it.

Given the pervasiveness of cell phones and recorded video, I doubt it will never happen. It's a light duty task, because it'll probably be cutting at most. But at this bargain basement price point, the raw speed of a CPU is still valuable. Facebook allows for video uploading for sharing too, and sometimes raw video may not be what the user wants to upload. Now, perhaps it is normally done through mobile phones and most of the videos are raw, but you cannot discount that some folks will edit their vids a little.

Or if someone is a youtube maniac, which is actually quite plausible for many "average users".

Or even, if this is truly a family who can't afford many computers, is the only one all members use. So, while the adults might only do word files, perhaps the youth learned about archiving his/her favorite youtube videos with youtube download manager. Suddenly, the meager 64GB SSD is filled. Now, you need some buffer so you aren't trapped because Windows itself has insufficient disk space, perhaps 10-15GBs. So, in actuality, there is about 20-30 GBs of free, always usable space. 20 GBs for the Windows folder and Program Files, 10-15 so Windows doesn't run out of space for itself.

Having used a Celeron+SSD myself, I loved the snappiness of the SSD but running out of space is no fun indeed. I was into the bitcoin stuff, but my technically uninclined sister certain loved using space too with her torrents and youtube watching. So now, I am suffering with a 3770k I plan to unload for profit and a enterprise spinner drive. Once I sell the 3770K, it's back to the old Celeron G550, lol. But even though the typical annoyances of the spinner are present, clock speed is not totally suppressed. When script heavy pages are loaded, the computer tears through them in Chome faster. Subtly, but definitely faster. Putting the mouse on the tabs have their titles flash faster as well. Facebook, is pretty much instantaenous loading on the i7.

So, if I have HDD and faster CPU, I will suffer longer load times for windows and apps, but browsing through Facebook itself will be better, provided that I don't start hammering the page file. The slower CPU+SSD

The A4 is indeed across the threshold of tolerable. Heck, perhaps even a TF-20 on a laptop with Vista is tolerable(I picked up the laptop literally from the trash). But the deceptively script-heavy Facebook could certain bog down on a slower CPU, or at least, put some waiting into the experience. There are lot of things that pop in or pop out when mousing over or searching for. When you scroll to the bottom, Facebook downloads more pics/ youtube links, or something. The i7, with Speedstep off is seamless when RAM isn't loaded up. Obviously, a used i7's price is way out there. But an Intel with 3 GHz has similar single thread performance. If there are two systems available, the one with the much faster single thread performance will still have a compelling case even if it has a HDD.

The SSD basically masks the constant back-and-forth between page file and browser if it is Chrome we are dealing with here, thus allowing for the experience to be remain seamless once you fill up RAM and really start hitting the pagefile.

Cliff Notes: SSDs are a nice thing to have IF you don't run out of space and can tolerate slower rendering of webpages, however subtly so.
Even a spinner cannot hold down faster IPC provided that the browser hasn't gobbled up all the RAM or is overwhelmed with too many scripts from too many sites. One will suffer from load times and "drag" while interfacing through Windows. Basically, this is the tradeoff.

Actually, this leaves me wondering what it would be like if the pagefile is on a dedicated SSD of 16-32GB while the main system is on a HDD....Windows loading would be slower, but a browsing session can go to many tabs with little degradation.

 

[XavierMace]

Let me ask, have you ever compared an FM1 A4-3420 2.8Ghz dual-core, versus a Haswell G1820 Celeron 2.7Ghz?

Their graphics is comparable, and the Haswell probably has maybe 30% CPU advantage.

Do you realize how ridiculous sound right now? You're trying to dismiss a 30% performance difference like it's no big deal just to justify another bad purchase. A G1850 is more like 50% and thats still going out of the way to try to find something that doesn't completely slaughter the A4. As others have mentioned you can get refurbished i3 and i5 rigs for the price you are talking about that will destroy the A4

 

[jmmtn4aj]

OP did you assess a need with patrons of soup kitchens for PCs that can browse Facebook and apparently do little else, or are you just looking to put parts together for fun and the 'charity' is merely an ancillary benefit--a way to dispose of the results, rather than the main goal?

A desktop computer requires a certain amount of space in their homes and a dedicated internet connection, both of which might be an issue considering you intend to distribute the PCs in place that gives out free meals. The extremely gimped storage space makes it unlikely that they would be able to install and learn to use programs like Word or Excel, which are probably the most basic of IT skills that people receiving their first computers should be looking to build in order to get an entry-level office job. I've lived a relatively privileged life and I hope I'm not generalizing or patronizing the less fortunate, but I can't imagine being able to browse Facebook is very high on the list of priorities for someone living in poverty. If it is, then they can already do it on a basic Android smartphone, and if they don't already have a smartphone, then that is what you should be giving them, because it is infinitely more useful than a computer that cannot be easily moved, requires an internet subscription, and can then only be used to browse the web.

Charity is laudable, but I get the sense that this is a 'let them eat cake' scenario. Note that Nick Negroponte already did something something similar on a far greater scale and failed. He hoped that gimped (but affordable!) computers distributed to the rural poor with no internet infrastructure or relevant training would somehow magically lift education outcomes. From an article - 'as Shaikh suggests, OLPC is a classic case of a development program more tailored to the tastes and interests of its funders, than the needs of the people it was supposed to help.'

 

[whm1974]

jmmtn4aj does have a point here. This does sound a bit like an "let them eat cake" scenario. A basic smart phone does sound like a better solution then a very barely usable system.

 

[VirtualLarry]

OP did you assess a need with patrons of soup kitchens for PCs that can browse Facebook and apparently do little else, or are you just looking to put parts together for fun and the 'charity' is merely an ancillary benefit--a way to dispose of the results, rather than the main goal?

First of all, it's not a "Soup Kitchen", it's a "Food Pantry". Soup Kitchens are for the homeless, Food Pantries are for people that have lower incomes, that have housing, and a place to cook meals.
Second, this is the first thing that I thought of, that someone might be able to actually benefit from the cheap FM1 CPU+mobo+heatsink combos I picked up a few months back, for around $50.
Thirdly, I know people on Disability, and they're not looking to "get a leg up", they're hooked on Facebook and the like all day.

A desktop computer requires a certain amount of space in their homes and a dedicated internet connection, both of which might be an issue considering you intend to distribute the PCs in place that gives out free meals.

Not free meals, free food to cook meals. Anyways, you're right, a PC requires a certain accommidation to have and use properly. I plan to distribute some literature, to point out where they can get cellular internet for $15/mo for the first year, and $10/mo thereafter. (I signed up for it myself. It's not much, but it works.)

The extremely gimped storage space makes it unlikely that they would be able to install and learn to use programs like Word or Excel, which are probably the most basic of IT skills that people receiving their first computers should be looking to build in order to get an entry-level office job.

Well, if I put Windows 10 on, I was thinking of maybe using the 160GB zero-POH factory refurb HDDs I have, since they have more room, and maybe sticking in the SSD for the pagefile, as someone mentioned as a possibility.

Linux Mint 18 Mate comes with LibreOffice.

I've lived a relatively privileged life and I hope I'm not generalizing or patronizing the less fortunate, but I can't imagine being able to browse Facebook is very high on the list of priorities for someone living in poverty.

If my experience with some of my clients is typical, then I'm afraid that you couldn't be more wrong.

If it is, then they can already do it on a basic Android smartphone, and if they don't already have a smartphone, then that is what you should be giving them, because it is infinitely more useful than a computer that cannot be easily moved, requires an internet subscription, and can then only be used to browse the web.

Charity is laudable, but I get the sense that this is a 'let them eat cake' scenario. Note that Nick Negroponte already did something something similar on a far greater scale and failed. He hoped that gimped (but affordable!) computers distributed to the rural poor with no internet infrastructure or relevant training would somehow magically lift education outcomes. From an article - 'as Shaikh suggests, OLPC is a classic case of a development program more tailored to the tastes and interests of its funders, than the needs of the people it was supposed to help.'

Point taken. But what am I going to do with ten FM1 mobos+CPUs? They run Win10 just fine, and browse pretty well, all things considered, and they can watch 1080P H264 video easily (YouTube, etc.).
I just think that they may be a bit less salable than I originally estimated, given the Skylake G3900 excellent iGPU, backed up by solid CPU performance.

Edit: And btw, Where OLPC failed, it appears that Facebook is succeeding, with their "Facebook basic internet". At least, it has taken over India, as I understand it, and they're proposing bringing it here to the USA.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Let's say that my proposed configuration is "not viable", due to the lack of capacity of the SSD, and the slow write speed, which I was not expecting.

I still think that the A4 FM1 APU is a viable option for a CPU and board, if only because the iGPU is roughly equivalent to a Haswell iGPU, and for browsing, that's as or more important than raw CPU grunt.

So, let's look at: RAM, storage, and OS, separately.

My proposed RAM config, is a dual-channel 2x2GB DDR3-1600. Which I've already ordered five kits of that.

I do already have several kits of 2x8GB DDR3-1866. (FM1 supports 1866 RAM)

I think putting 16GB of RAM, given current rising RAM prices, is needless overkill. But a config with a single DDR3-1866 8GB DIMM is probably pretty viable. (That's how I have my A4 APU test box configured.) But no dual-channel, not sure how much that matters for media decoding and web browsing, as opposed to actual 3D gaming.

Storage, I have some various 60GB "Chinese" SSDs, as well as a stock of Corsair Force LS 120GB MLC SATA6G 2.5" SSDs.

OS, if I were to put Windows 10 on there, I would buy more $20 product keys from Bonanza, and hope for the best. (900 positive reviews for one of the vendors...). For Linux, well, it's free. If I put CloudReady on there, then more than the 16GB SSD would probably be pure overkill.

 

[XavierMace]

Once you factor in an actual legit license and a keyboard and mouse, you are at the same price as this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA10V4VP3718&cm_re=I3-_-9SIA10V4VP3718-_-Product

And that will destroy the A4.

Seriously though VL. If you ignore everything else, heed this: Selling or even donating computers with shady keys is a bad idea. Those $20 keys are not legit. Eventually they will be a problem.

 

[Yuriman]

Working in a PC shop myself, one thing I notice is that customers who buy really low end machines (e.g. AMD cat cores, dual core APUs, Atom "Celerons") come in far more frequently complaining the machine has become unusable. We charge a flat $100 for a deep cleaning of viruses and malware, or if they choose instead, to have their data and programs backed up, Windows reinstalled, and everything restored. Customers with $200 machines give us $100 far more frequently because their machines become unusuably slow much more quickly. Sure, these machines can be alright with a clean Windows installation, but there's very little margin for bloat.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I put the newest 64-bit build of CloudReady on, and it plays 1080P @ 30 VP9 YouTube just dandy. The small SSD doesn't appear to be a problem for CloudReady. That's with a single 8GB DDR3 DIMM, and a mild OC to 106 FSB.

 

[cbn]

Virtual Larry, how do these APUs run with Linux (Ubuntu or Mint)?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Those $20 keys are not legit. Eventually they will be a problem.

Kind of like Canadian Pharmacies?

 

[VirtualLarry]

how do these APUs run with Linux (Ubuntu or Mint)?

It sort of runs, under Mint 18 Mate, but it didn't show any proprietary drivers available for the iGPU. Seemed a bit choppy playing 1080P vids on YouTube. CloudReady, OTOH, was smooth, as is Win10.

 

[cbn]

It sort of runs, under Mint 18 Mate, but it didn't show any proprietary drivers available for the iGPU. Seemed a bit choppy playing 1080P vids on YouTube. CloudReady, OTOH, was smooth, as is Win10.

Was this with Firefox or Chromium?

P.S. Fglrx (AMD's proprietary Linux driver) was removed from Ubuntu 16.04...so that explains why you don't see that option in Mint 18.

 

[VirtualLarry]

CloudReady boots off of the USB stick, or the internal 16GB SSD once installed, but there's no HDMI audio. :|

Had to plug in a pair of speakers.

 

[Torn Mind]

Keep on playing with fire with those $20-30 keys. I doubt that all of them will retain their activation.

 

[piasabird]

Just use your smart phone.

 

[whm1974]

Working in a PC shop myself, one thing I notice is that customers who buy really low end machines (e.g. AMD cat cores, dual core APUs, Atom "Celerons") come in far more frequently complaining the machine has become unusable. We charge a flat $100 for a deep cleaning of viruses and malware, or if they choose instead, to have their data and programs backed up, Windows reinstalled, and everything restored. Customers with $200 machines give us $100 far more frequently because their machines become unusuably slow much more quickly. Sure, these machines can be alright with a clean Windows installation, but there's very little margin for bloat.

I'm of the belief that if you must buy such low end machines due to cost or what have you, don't run Windows on them. Either use a suitable Linux distro or get a ChromeOS system instead.

 

[Rifter]

i just cant see this being more effective/useable than a used $100-200 smartphone.

 

[whm1974]

i just cant see this being more effective/useable than a used $100-200 smartphone.

Other then a bigger screen and keyboard, neither do I.

 

[Yuriman]

I'm of the belief that if you must buy such low end machines due to cost or what have you, don't run Windows on them. Either use a suitable Linux distro or get a ChromeOS system instead.

While I'm in agreement, these are OEM machines, picked up at places like Best Buy. The owners are not coming to me for purchasing advice.

 

[whm1974]

While I'm in agreement, these are OEM machines, picked up at places like Best Buy. The owners are not coming to me for purchasing advice.

And if they were, guys like us most likely would advise them to save their money and steer them to something much more usable.

 

[XavierMace]

Kind of like Canadian Pharmacies?

Don't say we didn't warn you when it blows up in your face.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Don't say we didn't warn you when it blows up in your face.

LOL. Not like Microsoft doesn't sometimes invalidate RETAIL-BOXED copies of their software too. (Purchased at legitimate software outlets, like Newegg and "shipped and sold by" Amazon.) So paying more is no guarantee that you won't have problems with the license.

Edit: And don't you buy PCs at auction, and then resell them, "With COA", when you know full well MS considers those COAs to be invalid, and that you are required to purchase "Refurbisher COAs", from some place like TechSoup, in order to resell them like that, legally?

So, don't lecture me on using out-of-region licenses. You know full well that Microsoft doesn't charge $100 USD, worldwide, for Windows licenses. Especially in those countries, where the average person makes $20 USD per month. If "global trade" is good for the goose, then it's good for the gander. Re-importation of licenses is a natural effect.

If you're going to be a stickler for the "rules", let me remind you of the MS Refurbisher documentation:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/skylake-pentium-g4400-overclocking.2457583/page-3#post-37900417

And then your reply, which essentially was, "well, those may be the rules, but MS has never enforced them against individuals".

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/skylake-pentium-g4400-overclocking.2457583/page-4#post-37900530

So, is this another pot-kettle-black conversation in this thread?

Edit: Your own words:

Can you show me ONE example of Microsoft contacting an individual on eBay or Craigslist and questioning the licensing of the install? Again, there's a huge difference between an actual business selling these by the thousands and some guy selling a bunch of old computers on eBay/Craigslist.

So, I'm not concerned, if you're not.

 

[XavierMace]

LOL. Not like Microsoft doesn't sometimes invalidate RETAIL-BOXED copies of their software too. (Purchased at legitimate software outlets, like Newegg and "shipped and sold by" Amazon.) So paying more is no guarantee that you won't have problems with the license.

Edit: And don't you buy PCs at auction, and then resell them, "With COA", when you know full well MS considers those COAs to be invalid, and that you are required to purchase "Refurbisher COAs", from some place like TechSoup, in order to resell them like that, legally?

No I don't.

If you're going to be a stickler for the "rules", let me remind you of the MS Refurbisher documentation:
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/skylake-pentium-g4400-overclocking.2457583/page-3#post-37900417

And then your reply, which essentially was, "well, those may be the rules, but MS has never enforced them against individuals".

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/skylake-pentium-g4400-overclocking.2457583/page-4#post-37900530

A) As discussed in that thread. I don't sell systems as a business and don't sell them as refurbished. You do and don't try to claim other wise.
B) You are talking about two different issues. Those threads were addressing having a valid COA but no media. You are buying keys without an actual COA.

If you think those keys you are buying are just from other regions, you're lying to yourself.

 

[Torn Mind]

As far as I understand it....
I don't think the written rules make exceptions if you are a business or individual. The letter of the law is quite clear that the original media, whatever it is, was given over to the recipient, or else the software license was not transferred.

But, if XavierMace just picks them up and sell them as they come out of the storage facility without loading up Windows, then the software wasn't transferred anyway. Although, he definitely could "refurbish" the ones they forget to wipe, lol. That is a proper transfer of software according to the EULAs. If someone buys a box with a COA and intends to be the END USER, I think MS goes, "whatever".