AT's latest video card testing results

[Keysplayr]

And I was. That's a ten second summary of the GF100's strengths - scalability and future proofing. If I did the same for the Cypress chips, I would say - overclocking capabilities, high resolution performance, low noise, and low power consumption. The sad thing is, you're so "green with envy," anytime someone doesn't extol Fermi, you get upset. I don't think I'm the one not being honest here, as you aren't with yourself nor the rest of the forum. If you wanted a 1000 word essay extolling the virtues of Fermi for your next group meeting, you write it, that's your job, not mine.
Where's your list? You've complained, personally insulted my character, and meandered for several posts now, but I still don't see your list of Fermi's strengths. Who can't or won't again?
Funny, even MSI doesn't mention that bolded part on their site. You'd think if they engineered that into the card, they'd be all over it. Do you have a link to back that up?

Ok dude. Hey, if I insulted your character, I apologize for it. But I'm not quite sure how I did that. I've got my answers and saying, when.

/cheers.

 

[MrK6]

Ok dude. Hey, if I insulted your character, I apologize for it. But I'm not quite sure how I did that. I've got my answers and saying, when.

/cheers.

Nice job trolling the thread, contributing nothing productive, and then ducking out without backing up anything you've said. You've learned well from the "School of Wreckage." Acting like this got you to your current situation, don't forget that.

This kind of stuff needs to stop being posted in video. -Admin DrPizza

 

[RussianSensation]

GPU core temperatures has very little to do with heat dissipation.

I never said GPU core temps correlate with power consumption. All I said that for me 470 was a cooler and quieter card form what I was coming from before. So since I was perfectly fine with the 4890, 470 had none of the disadvantages you are talking about for *me*, just faster performance.

And considering you have a 4870 1GB CF setup, one of the loudest and hottest videocard setups you can get, I am not sure how you can even talk about 470 being hot and loud

 

[Wreckage]

I never said GPU core temps correlate with power consumption. All I said that for me 470 was a cooler and quieter card form what I was coming from before. So since I was perfectly fine with the 4890, 470 had none of the disadvantages you are talking about for *me*, just faster performance.

Also he would need to prove how much electricity is converted into waste heat. Which he can not. So GPU temp is probably the best gauge.

And considering you have a 4870 1GB CF setup, one of the loudest and hottest videocard setups you can get, I am not sure how you can even talk about 470 being hot and loud

His hypocrisy knows no bounds.

 

[MrK6]

And considering you have a 4870 1GB CF setup, one of the loudest and hottest videocard setups you can get, I am not sure how you can even talk about 470 being hot and loud

That title belongs to GTX 480 SLI. Considering the 4870 usually loads at around 130W (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd4870-x2_6.html) compared to, oh, how about a GTX 470, which loads at 220W (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce-gtx470-sli_4.html#sect0), you couldn't be further from the truth or more incorrect.

Also he would need to prove how much electricity is converted into waste heat. Which he can not. So GPU temp is probably the best gauge.

Functionally, all of it. That's Electrical Engineering 101.

That's reality

 

[Idontcare]

Functionally, all of it. That's Electrical Engineering 101.

This is true.

I've long wondered why individuals specifically worry so much about the actual temps of the IC.

That's not to say the IC temp doesn't matter, it does, but I generally get the impression that a large majority of people mistakenly equate IC temperature and power-consumption as if they are one and the same.

I know why I worry about the temps from a device physics point of view, and I know why I'd worry about temps from a consumer standpoint.

But for the vast majority of the situations where people seem to be worried about gpu temps it is a case of misplaced concern.

Just my opinion, I really am posing this as a question because I'd like to understand more of what motivates the concern over temps. Maybe I am the one missing something here.

 

[Wreckage]

Sucks when reality comes in and kicks your fanboy bullshit in the ass, doesn't it?

So a 60W fan will generate as much heat as a 60W lightbulb?

:\

Also if the math is so simple, please give me accurate numbers on how much waste heat each card generates. Should be no problem for you.

 

[Idontcare]

So a 60W fan will generate as much heat as a 60W lightbulb?

:\

Sadly, yes, that is how they determine to label a 60W fan as a 60W fan and a 60W lightbulb as a 60W lightbulb.

The wattage is the power-consumption, no bones about it. Personally I blame Joule and Ohm for all this confusion, talk about a couple of real bastards

 

[evolucion8]

And considering you have a 4870 1GB CF setup, one of the loudest and hottest videocard setups you can get, I am not sure how you can even talk about 470 being hot and loud

Mr. K6 beat me to it, so in a brief, two HD 4870 CF consumes 260W while a single GTX 480 consumes more than that, and my cards aren't far behind from the GTX 480 in terms of performance (But in overall, the performance/watt edge goes to the GTX 480 when compared to an HD 4870X2) But a single HD 5870 is close to the GTX 480 and consumes much less power than the HD 4870X2.

And none of my cards uses the reference cooler, one of them uses the industry leading MSI Cyclone cooler, the same used on the MSI Cyclone GTX 460 and works like a champ and is very silent (If it can withstand the terrible GTX 460 TDP, it will withstand my card just fine), the other card uses the Sapphire black cooler which ressembles the Vapor X cooler, but without the vapor chamber technology, is also very quiet and works like a champ.

But the tittle of the hottest and most power hungry setup belongs to the GTX 480 SLI, 2nd place, GTX 470 SLI, 3rd, GTX 465 SLI, 4th, GTX 460 SLI, 5th single GTX 480, nVidia is the leader in innovation, yeah, leader with the highest heat dissipation and power consumption with little or no advantage in the performance department compared to the competition, the GTX 470 is a nice card which trade blows with the HD 5870, the edge goes for the HD 5870 and consumes considerably less power.

GTX 480 vs HD 5970 = AMD wins - Higher performance and less heat dissipation

GTX 470 vs HD 5870 = AMD wins - Same or slightly higher performance and less heat dissipation

GTX 465 vs HD 5850 = Tie in performance, lower heat dissipation goes to the AMD solution

GTX 460 vs HD 5830 = nVidia wins with higher performance and slightly better heat dissipation overall (GF104 is a very nice chip)

 

[Wreckage]

Sadly, yes, that is how they determine to label a 60W fan as a 60W fan and a 60W lightbulb as a 60W lightbulb.

The wattage is the power-consumption, no bones about it. Personally I blame Joule and Ohm for all this confusion, talk about a couple of real bastards

Oh I agree it is the power consumption, I would just think a lot of that power in the fan would be converted to kinetic energy (ie moving the air) instead of nearly all of it being lost as heat.

As far as power consumption goes, I'm curious if anyone is equally stressed over how much their Hard Drive, Optical Drive, CPU, Fans, PSU, etc. consume. From reading other sections of the forum it seems nobody really gives two shits. I just find it funny that the ATI shills try and use it here. In the past ATI cards used more power than their NVIDIA counterparts and they were not so worried back then. Honestly if it truly is an issue for anyone they are better off using a game console.

 

[Idontcare]

Oh I agree it is the power consumption, I would just think a lot of that power in the fan would be converted to kinetic energy (ie moving the air) instead of nearly all of it being lost as heat.

Power consumption is the "correct" unit of heat dissipation

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/storage/hddpower.html

In statistical mechanics we partition the various ways that energy is accounted for in a system. Kinetic, potential, chemical, electrical, etc.

When it comes to power-consumption the underlying expectation is that it is all "heat"..."heat" does not place a restriction on which energy manifold the power that was consumed has been partition into.

It is very very easy to get heat, temperature and power-consumption conflated with one another.

It is probably best to just avoid using the term heat and instead use the more clearly interpretable terms temperature and power-consumption.

(temperature by the way is just energy that is present in the kinetic energy manifold, moving that air raises the temperature of the air, another unavoidable consequence of the physics behind the math)

 

[RussianSensation]

I've long wondered why individuals specifically worry so much about the actual temps of the IC.

MrK6 you are confusing heat/noise and power consumption. A card can be hotter and louder and consume less power - 4890, 4850, 4870 - because they have less efficient air coolers. I would only care about power consumption IF the card also ran hotter and louder. Let's address the 3 key issues of higher power consumption: (1) Cost of electricity (2) Noise (3) Heat. As far as I am concerned, when I build a computer system for gaming, power consumption is ONLY relevant when it impacts temperatures and noise.

(1) The cost of electricity is so low, it's irrelevant for *me*. If a person games for 3 hours per day 365 days a year, at 15 cents per kW, that amounts to just $14.80/year extra, while getting framerates 60%+ faster than say a single 4870. So stating that a single 4870 runs 90-100W cooler at load in regard to electricity cost is insignificant for anyone who enjoys gaming. Besides, 4870 consumes just 50-60W less than the 470 not 100W. http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...s/30321-nvidia-geforce-gtx-470-review-29.html
354 vs. 306W from link below.

So Evo8 and MrK6, you guys are are running your Quads overclocked, and yet arguing about power consumption of a videocard, while running CPUs that consumes 80-100W more power overclocked....But yet you guys are doing it because the temperature permits it, and don't care about the additional electricity costs!

(2) Temperature - lower the temps of my computer components is far more important than the extra 90W power consumption difference. If I cared about power consumption, why would I overclock the i7 @ 3.9ghz? That's easily adding another 100W of power. Why didn't I go higher than 3.9? Not because of power consumption, but because of additional temperatures.

If a 4890 is running at 55*C and my GTX470 is idling at just 38-43*C, why is a lower idling card not better? IDC, a card with higher idling temps will have heat spots on it which will result in rising case temperatures, plain and simple. In addition, it will dump much hotter air into the case because it isn't able to exhaust it fast enough into the room.

(3) Noise - As a result of #2, videocards tend to also run at higher fan speeds to curb the additional heat. Again, 4870/4890/4850 run at much higher idle temps, while I can lower the fan speed of the 470 to just 32 percent and get < 40*C temps - http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...65-sapphire-radeon-hd-4890-1gb-review-21.html

At load, 4870 and 4850 series were hardly cooler than the 470, and both ran much hotter at idle. Again, 470 doesn't run any hotter than 275/280/285 did either at load or at idle.

It's pretty obvious from Zotac AMP! 480 that a better cooler makes all the difference and suddenly power consumption is a non-issue for Fermi cards - 27*C drop at load: http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Zotac-GTX-480-Amp-Edition/?page=14

It's just a shame that NV shipped 470/480 cards with such poor air coolers.

Here is another way to think about power consumption - Evo8, Idontcare and MrK6 - would you choose a watercooled GTX480 or an air cooled 5870?

If power consumption is a concern, you'd never choose the water cooled 480 This is why I personally believe temperature and noise are ultimately the most important factors, not power consumption.

 

[Wreckage]

.

It is very very easy to get heat, temperature and power-consumption conflated with one another.

It is probably best to just avoid using the term heat and instead use the more clearly interpretable terms temperature and power-consumption.

That is more in line with what I am talking about. Ah well making a mountain out of a mole hill we is. ^_^

 

[DrPizza]

Also he would need to prove how much electricity is converted into waste heat. Which he can not. So GPU temp is probably the best gauge.

100&#37;
Simple physics. See: conservation of energy. The temperature of the card is dependent on how quickly the heat is removed to the cooler, surrounding air. I know nothing about fans, but every watt that a fan uses is also converted into heat in a closed room. The kinetic energy gained by the air is dissipated as heat due to drag.

 

[MrK6]

This is true.

I've long wondered why individuals specifically worry so much about the actual temps of the IC.

That's not to say the IC temp doesn't matter, it does, but I generally get the impression that a large majority of people mistakenly equate IC temperature and power-consumption as if they are one and the same.

I know why I worry about the temps from a device physics point of view, and I know why I'd worry about temps from a consumer standpoint.

But for the vast majority of the situations where people seem to be worried about gpu temps it is a case of misplaced concern.

Just my opinion, I really am posing this as a question because I'd like to understand more of what motivates the concern over temps. Maybe I am the one missing something here.

In my experience, people obsess over it because it's an easy concept to understand. Lower temperatures are better than higher temperatures, and I think even the novice enthusiast knows or will come to know that lower temps give longer life to a part, increase overclocking ability and stability, and are generally good. However, it seems there are a lot of misplaced/uninformed correlations or FUD that spread from there that simply are not true. Some of the comments from above are perfect examples of that. However, these are just guesses, and I too, would like to know what motivates people to such concern as well.

So a 60W fan will generate as much heat as a 60W lightbulb?

:\

Also if the math is so simple, please give me accurate numbers on how much waste heat each card generates. Should be no problem for you.

A fan is a mechanical part that does work as it generates movement, so some of the energy is used to do work and another fraction of it is lost as heat (these exact amounts depend on the efficiency of the motor). A 60W light bulb is a different circuit, where it can be said that the "work" done is done in producing light. If the 60W bulb is an incandescent bulb (and I recall correctly), about 8% of that power is used to produce light (measured in lumens) while about 92% is lost has heat. Some of the new fluorescent bulbs are much more efficient, and produce about about five times more light (again, measured in lumens) than a similarly rated incandescent bulb, but I digress. In either case, neither of these are a video card, which converts greater than 99% of the power it uses into heat, as there's not any significant work taken to flip transistors.

I hope I broke that down enough and I tried to give some basic examples to explain these concepts. If you don't understand, please feel free to ask questions. I think reading up on the concepts of "work" and "power" over at Wikipedia will also aid you in understanding these concepts.

 

[Martimus]

This is true.

I've long wondered why individuals specifically worry so much about the actual temps of the IC.

That's not to say the IC temp doesn't matter, it does, but I generally get the impression that a large majority of people mistakenly equate IC temperature and power-consumption as if they are one and the same.

I know why I worry about the temps from a device physics point of view, and I know why I'd worry about temps from a consumer standpoint.

But for the vast majority of the situations where people seem to be worried about gpu temps it is a case of misplaced concern.

Just my opinion, I really am posing this as a question because I'd like to understand more of what motivates the concern over temps. Maybe I am the one missing something here.

Having personally tested tens of thousands of electrical components under different temperatures, voltages, and currents, I know why I care about temps. Mostly because the temperature has a direct correlation to the electrical characteristics of the IC, and the IC will suffer permanent damage if it is pushed to its electrical limits. (Pushing too much current through a Zener diode will permanently move the breakdown region, to the point it no-longer regulates at the same voltage, for example).

I know I continue to use the same example, but it is an example that I have personal experience with. It is also the reason I rarely overclock things, and why I try to keep from running a PSU near its maximum load. I have worked on PSU design for long enough (especially in FMEA type work where we find all the failure modes and design failsafes for failures) to know that you never want to run any electrical component near its maximum threshold for any period of time - especially something like a PSU that could easily destroy all other elctrical components in your system.

 

[evolucion8]

Oh I agree it is the power consumption, I would just think a lot of that power in the fan would be converted to kinetic energy (ie moving the air) instead of nearly all of it being lost as heat.

As far as power consumption goes, I'm curious if anyone is equally stressed over how much their Hard Drive, Optical Drive, CPU, Fans, PSU, etc. consume. From reading other sections of the forum it seems nobody really gives two shits. I just find it funny that the ATI shills try and use it here. In the past ATI cards used more power than their NVIDIA counterparts and they were not so worried back then. Honestly if it truly is an issue for anyone they are better off using a game console.

Well, the difference is that in previous generations, the HD 4870 consumed more power at idle compared to the GTX 260+ and the latter consumed slightly more at full load, but both cards were comparable in terms of performance (The edge goes for the AMD solution), and the GTX 280 consumed more power at full than the HD 4870 and also was consistently faster by a small margin relative to its higher power consumption.

But the GTX 480 performance advantage over the HD 5870 isn't that much to justify its much higher power consumption and heat dissipation, it isn't relative and its out of proportion compared to the performance gains to withstand such terrible TDP. A considerably faster HD 5870 consumes slightly more power than a single GTX 460!!! (Between 20W and 32W more) But a GTX 470 which is almost an exact match for the HD 5870 consumes far more than that (Between 42W to 54W) more. So at least is justified to the HD 5870 to consume slightly more power since it provides you more performance, but not for the GTX 470 and neither the disproportionated GTX 480, in SLI is a monster in terms of power consumption and heat dissipation.

Russian Sensation), my CPU is overclocked to 3.82GHz, but it idles most of the time, and only in rare scenarios it can come close to its theorical TDP, but a GTX 480 or any other videocard during gaming usually gets much closer to its estimated TDP than any processor regardless of the type of load. (Unless if you use Linpack as a software productivity)

 

[Idontcare]

Well Trollckage,

I've already posted in this thread as a member so I can't/won't take any actions as a mod but I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that my personality is such that I find this sort of posting to be quite distasteful, let alone needless and counter to fostering an environment that invites new members, as well as us old ones, the desire to interact with the community.

There are ways to respectfully disagree with our fellow forum members, and then there are ways to just try and cause angst and disrespect. The angst needs to stop, the constant prison-yard shivving in the side needs to stop.

In video threads where I am capable of acting as a mod I fully intend to take action with posts that run in the same vein as the one I'm quoting above.

Consider this a video forum-wide notice. All sides need to take a step back and readjust their approach to one another in here.

Feel free to take this up with me in PFI or pm if you feel further clarification is warranted.

(note: I am NOT posting this as a mod, I am NOT using the quoted post as an example for any other reason than that it was the closest at hand for me to quote, hence authorship was removed, this does not mean that other mods will not be taking action with the material in this thread, imo there is a fair amount of actionable posts in this thread...)

 

[evolucion8]

<snip>

Well, this is a troll post;

Also he would need to prove how much electricity is converted into waste heat. Which he can not. So GPU temp is probably the best gauge.


His hypocrisy knows no bounds.

If he throw me stones, don't pretend that I will throw flowers back to him, it doesn't excuse my behavior, hence I edited it.

 

[Wreckage]

If he throw me stones, don't pretend that I will throw flowers back to him, it doesn't excuse my behavior, hence I edited it.

Sure when you take what I said out of context (which you clearly did).

However tied to this post

And considering you have a 4870 1GB CF setup, one of the loudest and hottest videocard setups you can get, I am not sure how you can even talk about 470 being hot and loud

That does seem hypocritical does it not. Having a hot, loud, power hungry (compared to a single card setup) crossfire rig and then going on rants about heat, noise and power....

I did not turn your screen name into a personal attack such as you did. I was attacking your post, while you attack the poster. There is a clear difference.

 

[SlowSpyder]

That does seem hypocritical does it not. Having a hot, loud, power hungry (compared to a single card setup) crossfire rig and then going on rants about heat, noise and power....

I did not turn your screen name into a personal attack such as you did. I was attacking your post, while you attack the poster. There is a clear difference.

See, the thing is that a 4870 CF set up is not hot and power hungry when compared to it's equivalent Nvidia set up, a GTX260 SLI configuration. They offer similar performance and similar power/heat characteristics.

Current generation AMD and Nvidia parts are fairly far a part in power/heat for not all that different performance. A GTX470 SLI setup is probably a bit faster than a 5870 CF setup, but the 470 set up uses a lot more power. And then there is the GTX480. It's a lot slower than a 5970 while using roughly the same power (actually more from what I remember, though just a little more).

While I don't care too much about power use (I do look at it, but it's not make or break for me) some people do. Many have a 500ish watt power supply. Some have smallish cases with maybe one fan. Some are quite happy with 85% of the performance for 60% of the power use (I didn't look at the actual power use, but I figure it's somewhere around that).

So I don't see it as hypocritical at all.

 

[Idontcare]

[this conversation can be moved to PFI or pm if you prefer it to be non-public, or if the OP prefers we not clutter up their thread with this OT discussion...for now, since the conversation is public and being held in this thread I will add my thoughts to it here]

Well, this is a troll post;

If he throw me stones, don't pretend that I will throw flowers back to him, it doesn't excuse my behavior, hence I edited it.

I can appreciate your point of view on that, it was getting a little...tense...but what we'd like to see is you coming to one of the mods asking us for a sanity check before taking matters into your own hands and firing back, needlessly risking gaining an infraction in the process.

Maybe we agree with you and ask you to standby while we help mediate the other side of the situation, or maybe we help you see the post in a different light and you might come to see that it was all just a misunderstanding of some kind. A lot can happen when you take moment to breath before reacting.

And I did notice, and appreciated, that you took the action yourself to edit and clean it up. We are all human and prone to react quickly when things get a little heated, that is partially why the edit button is there. :thumbsup:

Sure when you take what I said out of context (which you clearly did).

However tied to this post

That does seem hypocritical does it not. Having a hot, loud, power hungry (compared to a single card setup) crossfire rig and then going on rants about heat, noise and power....

I did not turn your screen name into a personal attack such as you did. I was attacking your post, while you attack the poster. There is a clear difference.

At issue here is the subjective nature of deciding whether something or someone is acting in a manner that is hypocritical.

There is no litmus test for that. No one can tell you that your opinion of the post is wrong.

But we can tell you that we do expect your public reaction to the post - and the manner in which you choose to communicate your opinion - to be a little more tactful.

You don't want to have your opinion viewed as being worth any less than the value you place on it.

If you value your opinion, wish to share your opinion, and you want others to value and respect your opinion then it behooves you to choose your words wisely. Otherwise what is the point in expressing your opinion to begin with?

And to be honest I don't know too many people who aren't hypocrites in some way or another...who likes to drive the speed limit and yet we expect/desire everyone else to obey the laws? Its all subjective and hardly worth our time to take anyone to task over our perception of their hypocrisy.

File it under "some things are best left unsaid" and have more relaxing, less combative, time on the forums

 

[Wreckage]

See, the thing is that a 4870 CF set up is not hot and power hungry when compared to it's equivalent Nvidia set up, a GTX260 SLI configuration. They offer similar performance and similar power/heat characteristics.

Current generation AMD and Nvidia parts are fairly far a part in power/heat for not all that different performance. A GTX470 SLI setup is probably a bit faster than a 5870 CF setup, but the 470 set up uses a lot more power. And then there is the GTX480. It's a lot slower than a 5970 while using roughly the same power (actually more from what I remember, though just a little more).

While I don't care too much about power use (I do look at it, but it's not make or break for me) some people do. Many have a 500ish watt power supply. Some have smallish cases with maybe one fan. Some are quite happy with 85&#37; of the performance for 60% of the power use (I didn't look at the actual power use, but I figure it's somewhere around that).

So I don't see it as hypocritical at all.

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/12

Recent benchmark with power figures.

At idle the 4870 is worse than everything they tested even a 470.

At load it's worse than a 260.

 

[evolucion8]

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/12

Recent benchmark with power figures.

At idle the 4870 is worse than everything they tested even a 470.

At load it's worse than a 260.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2626/9

At idle, the HD 4870 consumes more power, definitively truth, but at load, it merely consumes 4 more watts and also is faster with newer, shader intensive games.

 

[Wreckage]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2626/9

At idle, the HD 4870 consumes more power, definitively truth, but at load, it merely consumes 4 more watts and also is faster with newer, shader intensive games.

That link is from 2008

If you read the TR review I linked (which uses newer games). The 4870 loses every benchmark, in some cases by a large margin. :thumbsdown: