ATPCG Round Table Discussion on DRM Solutions

[mmntech]

Piracy is a major problem for PC games, but so is the methodology used to stop it. There's plenty of threads on DRM on this board.

This thread is a round table discussion on DRM and piracy. Obviously the current approach is not working. Rather than complaining about it, I want to find a reasonable solution. A middle ground between gamers and publishers. A solution that balances rights of the paying gamer to be free from intrusion versus publishers rights to protect their IP. Publishers aren't going to abandon DRM but lets work to make it fair.


Thread rules:
1. No complaints, just solutions
2. Keep your solutions realistic
3. No advocating piracy
4. Keep on topic
5. Think outside the box!!

 

[Maximilian]

Im pretty sure mindcycle did this before a year or two ago.

Either way, steam is a decent solution :thumbsup: Unlike other forms of DRM its actually helpful, keeping games up to date etc, friends list, voice chat, all that assorted stuff.

Only massive negative for me is if your game dosent work, wont run on latest windows, or has other problems theres no refund or anything which sucks as PC games are prone to problems, especially if you have cutting edge hardware.

 

[Lonyo]

Steam isn't a DRM solution, it's a digital rights removal tool.

Honestly what I've heard of for BFBC2 sounds like a reasonable DRM solution, either you use a simple disc check, or you activate online.
(Or the third option, you download it via something like Steam which can be your rights "management" system).

The problem has been solved, people just need to use the solution rather than come up with their own digital rights removal systems. BFBC2 > *

And most of those other features of Steam were available before Steam through non-partisan programs like XFire. Having those features is nice, except when it serves to lock people in.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Unfortunately, in this day and age a solution requires that it at the very least fend off 0-day piracy. A true solution would prevent all piracy and never inconvenience legitimate customers, but lets not let pretend like the latter is sacrosanct and the former is disposable.

As such, unless BFBC2's disc check is somehow remaining uncracked, it's not a solution.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Just a simple CD check or serial check kind of thing. Anything more and you're just alienating your customers while not making pirates do any additional effort, and are in fact giving the pirates benefits because they don't have to deal with the DRM.

 

[pontifex]

really? another drm thread?

 

[allthatisman]

Honestly, any solution they/I/we can think of, a hacker will be able to find a way around. The only way to lessen (not defeat, that's not going to happen) piracy is to make people not want to pirate the game. In other words, there has to be a reason other than a moral one, for them to pay for a game. I personally like Steam because my games are always up to date, the platform is constantly updated, you can chat in game with other users, no CD's or CD check, when you download the game at very respectable speeds it installs it at the same time, and there are many games that can be had for less than $20 which is more than reasonable.

Aside from the way Steam operates, I would say that an online reward system that would require a serial number and an internet connection would be the only other alternative, but that would have to be on a per game basis, which doesn't always work. Software companies could also integrate advertising into the games, like in the level loading screens and the intro screens to make up for lost revenue, since even hacked games would see them.

 

[smackababy]

The only way to lessen piracy is to offer more perceived value than the game itself. I know the only CDs I've purchased in the last 5 years came with something other than the CD itself. On both purchases, it was a T-Shirt. Now, a band shirt itself costs around what a CD does, so for the same price I, not only obtained the CD legally, but I got something extra for my money.

If a developer can find a way to do this, DRM will no longer be needed. Piracy would drop. That is the only true way to defeat piracy.

 

[KaOTiK]

CD check or an online authentication for when you first install it is fine, doesn't inconvenience the buyer and the pirates are getting around it either way. Steam would be ideal to me. The most intrusive I am willing to tolerate is tying the CD key to an account type of deal even if it does kill selling a game after doing so.

 

[EvilComputer92]

Piracy is a major problem for PC games, but so is the methodology used to stop it. There's plenty of threads on DRM on this board.

This thread is a round table discussion on DRM and piracy. Obviously the current approach is not working. Rather than complaining about it, I want to find a reasonable solution. A middle ground between gamers and publishers. A solution that balances rights of the paying gamer to be free from intrusion versus publishers rights to protect their IP. Publishers aren't going to abandon DRM but lets work to make it fair.


Thread rules:
1. No complaints, just solutions
2. Keep your solutions realistic
3. No advocating piracy
4. Keep on topic
5. Think outside the box!!

You can pretend that publishers care about what we post here, or on any internet forum for that matter. The reality is that they don't, and what influences their decision are sales numbers.

If a game with Ubisoft DRM sells millions of copies, you can be sure that the uproar of the internet will not sway their minds.

Suppose MW2 shipped with Ubisoft DRM. Guess what, the internet would have roared in protest, and still it would have still sold millions on the PC. That speaks volumes more to companies than any discussion.

 

[mindcycle]

Im pretty sure mindcycle did this before a year or two ago.

I'm fairly sure there was a thread similar to this one but I couldn't find it. I think DRM has changed enough that new discussion is warranted. A few years back there seemed to be a bigger split, for vs against. The current DRM climate seems to have changed that however, as most people (on this forum at least) are pretty put off by "always online" DRM among other recent forms. I don't see as many posters trying to justify the need for harsher DRM, as was the opposite a few years back. I'm sure you can remember a few of those 20+ page threads right? lol

The only way to lessen piracy is to offer more perceived value than the game itself. I know the only CDs I've purchased in the last 5 years came with something other than the CD itself. On both purchases, it was a T-Shirt. Now, a band shirt itself costs around what a CD does, so for the same price I, not only obtained the CD legally, but I got something extra for my money.

If a developer can find a way to do this, DRM will no longer be needed. Piracy would drop. That is the only true way to defeat piracy.

Exactly. This is essentially the Stardock model and one that I fully support. Give the consumer greater incentives to purchase your game, not extra roadblocks to have to deal with. IMO, when the focus shifts from "combating" piracy and deterring used sales, and moves back to the consumer and what he/she might want, only then will we will truly see a measurable shift in piracy trends.

 

[Arglebargle]

I think companies should focus on combatting '0-day piracy', with the DRM coming off at a particular point where the sales start to dive. Especially in MP games, where having a strong community helps drive sales.

Adding value is also a good approach. In game things that are only available after registration perhaps. And adding non digital value, as already mentioned, T-shirts for example.

I was reading up on Stalker:CoP forums recently, and a lot of the people had DL'd the Russian version that was released early, and playing with subtitles. Many bought the localized version when it released. The Steam guys have mentioned this (staggered releases) as a strong attractor to unauthorized downloading of games.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I think companies should focus on combatting '0-day piracy', with the DRM coming off at a particular point where the sales start to dive. Especially in MP games, where having a strong community helps drive sales.

Adding value is also a good approach. In game things that are only available after registration perhaps. And adding non digital value, as already mentioned, T-shirts for example.

I was reading up on Stalker:CoP forums recently, and a lot of the people had DL'd the Russian version that was released early, and playing with subtitles. Many bought the localized version when it released. The Steam guys have mentioned this (staggered releases) as a strong attractor to unauthorized downloading of games.

Only problem is combatting 0-day piracy requires new software to fight it. If you use an old solution it'll be broken -1 day. Creating a new drm that works for a few weeks probably costs as much to make as the game itself.

 

[Powermoloch]

A simple disk check, no installation limits, no authorization limits. That's how much I would ask for, why would I be screwed out from re-installation if I buy a product from a B&M store?

 

[Arglebargle]

Only problem is combatting 0-day piracy requires new software to fight it. If you use an old solution it'll be broken -1 day. Creating a new drm that works for a few weeks probably costs as much to make as the game itself.

If that's the case, wouldn't the piracy number have to equal your sales numbers to make it a worthwhile proposition?

If you do come up with one, then it could be amortized across all your releases, I guess.

If companies were just doing this for just a limited amount of time, I would be less PO'd at it. Though I am patient enough that I would (mostly) just wait for the later sales....

 

[Fenixgoon]

i think steam works pretty well. its DRM isn't overly instrusive, and it has an offline mode as well as network play.

the *only* problem is the inability to transfer games. Games should be transferable so you can sell/trade them.

That being said, the simpler DRM the better. CDkeys only would be great for MP games. I hate having disc checks.

 

[Lonyo]

A simple disk check, no installation limits, no authorization limits. That's how much I would ask for, why would I be screwed out from re-installation if I buy a product from a B&M store?

i think steam works pretty well. its DRM isn't overly instrusive, and it has an offline mode as well as network play.

the *only* problem is the inability to transfer games. Games should be transferable so you can sell/trade them.

That being said, the simpler DRM the better. CDkeys only would be great for MP games. I hate having disc checks.

Im pretty sure mindcycle did this before a year or two ago.

Either way, steam is a decent solution :thumbsup: Unlike other forms of DRM its actually helpful, keeping games up to date etc, friends list, voice chat, all that assorted stuff.

Only massive negative for me is if your game dosent work, wont run on latest windows, or has other problems theres no refund or anything which sucks as PC games are prone to problems, especially if you have cutting edge hardware.

And this is why BFBC2 has the solution. Everyone gets the choice of how they want their DRM.

 

[Arglebargle]

Technically, you can sell games on Steam accounts if you move the entire account. If you set up each game as a seperate account, then it's doable. Much more work than I'd be willing to do.

To anyone who doesn't sell their games, this is a non issue, though it is a negative for those who do wish to.

 

[KeithTalent]

Technically, you can sell games on Steam accounts if you move the entire account. If you set up each game as a seperate account, then it's doable. Much more work than I'd be willing to do.

To anyone who doesn't sell their games, this is a non issue, though it is a negative for those who do wish to.

Selling your account is against ToS and they can ban you if they find out.

I used to care about selling my games, but not anymore, it's just not worth the hassle anymore. I much prefer just having them all on my PC and not having discs lying around to clutter up my house. I prefer to clutter my house with Blu-rays instead.

KT

 

[Tristicus]

Piracy is a major problem for PC games

 

[GrumpyMan]

I think every game manufacturer should have an agent in every city and town in the US and around the world. So if you want to play your game you call them and this guy comes over and says, "OK, go ahead and play". He then takes out the CD puts it in your computer and when you're done he takes out the CD and goes home until the next time you want to play.

 

[coloumb]

I wonder how many % of gamers actually give a damn about PC DRM and where it's headed? Ask these same questions to people who shop at Walmart, Gamestop, Target, etc and most of them will probably give you a blank stare.

Ubisoft's latest DRM scheme is actually pretty damn good - it didn't prevent piracy, but it did prevent 0-day piracy and it's more of a pain to get it working that simply downloading a "cracked" executable. I see that as the future of PC gaming - required but not constant internet connection. And by registering the game - you would receive additional goodies [DLC's, t-shirts, electronic coupon for % off your next purchase, etc]

I don't really think there is any other way - hardware based solutions can be easily mod'd, serializing CPU caused mass privacy havoc [Intel tried this with the P3], and software based solutions are just too easy to crack by reverse engineering.

Recent link regarding ubi drm and other forms of drm - interesting that they couldn't get any official rep from ubisoft for an interview...

http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/214178/analysis-digital-rights-management-in-pc-gaming

 

[TheJTrain]

First, I'd make the suggestion that any discussion along these lines needs to be divided into two discussions: one for digital sales (Steam, D2D, Impulse) and one for hardcopy retail sales. Those are two very different transactions, from multiple perspectives: consumer expectations, consumer value, producer cost, and especially consumer's legal rights. With that in mind, I have no problem with what Steam & D2D etc. do right now - of course, I never buy anything digitally unless it's under $10 or DLC, so I may not be the best-qualified to offer opinions on that side of the equation.

For retail hardcopy purchases, I propose a combination of what EA did with Dragon Age & Mass Effect 2 and what they did with Bad Company 2.

From DAO/ME2:
- No SecuROM
- CD key
- One-time-only DLC key (for new purchases only)

From BFBC2:
- The option of either doing an offline install, in which case there's no phoning home for registration but a CD-check is required every time; or doing an online install, in which you don't need the CD in when you play

I'm ONLY ok with the irrevocable-registration-to-your-unique-account mechanic if there is multiplayer functionality involved. Bioshock 2 (using GFWL) and BFBC2 both did this right: you can install & play singleplayer without irrevocably tying the game's serial to your unique account (thereby preserving transferability, a legal right of the consumer under the codified-into-law First Sale Doctrine), but if you want to play multiplayer you've got to tie it to your account, for stat-tracking, updates, punkbusting, etc. Even DAO & ME2 did this right when it came to getting DLC, including the free "bought-it-new" DLC - you never had to tie your game serial to your unique EA account to get it.

 

[Pia]

I think companies should focus on combatting '0-day piracy', with the DRM coming off at a particular point where the sales start to dive.

Correction: the reasonable time for when DRM should come off for most games is not some nebulous sales figure shift, but when a fully functional pirate copy enters circulation. Of course I'd applaud also eventually stripping it off if a working pirate copy does not appear, but we all know how rare that is.

If only game "journalists" had anything to do with actual journalism I believe they would bring up this issue often in the form of a question: "Mr. Publisher, it has come to our attention that pirates have been enjoying a fully functional version of your game for three months, and your game has since been patched two times to remove bugs and improve the user experience. Why have the customer-inconveniencing DRM features X and Y likewise not been removed in either of the patches, when their effect on pirates has demonstrably dropped to zero, and they must cause at least the occasional customer support expense at your end?"

 

[Fenixgoon]

I wonder how many % of gamers actually give a damn about PC DRM and where it's headed? Ask these same questions to people who shop at Walmart, Gamestop, Target, etc and most of them will probably give you a blank stare.

Ubisoft's latest DRM scheme is actually pretty damn good - it didn't prevent piracy, but it did prevent 0-day piracy and it's more of a pain to get it working that simply downloading a "cracked" executable. I see that as the future of PC gaming - required but not constant internet connection. And by registering the game - you would receive additional goodies [DLC's, t-shirts, electronic coupon for % off your next purchase, etc]

I don't really think there is any other way - hardware based solutions can be easily mod'd, serializing CPU caused mass privacy havoc [Intel tried this with the P3], and software based solutions are just too easy to crack by reverse engineering.

Recent link regarding ubi drm and other forms of drm - interesting that they couldn't get any official rep from ubisoft for an interview...

http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/214178/analysis-digital-rights-management-in-pc-gaming

ubisoft's scheme is ridiculous - it does not allow for offline play. PERIOD. establishing a connection periodically with an authentication server is absolute insanity for single player games. obviously for MP games this is a non-issue. but SP? really?

a one-time authentication should be what's required, *AT MOST*, for an SP game.