ATOT Legal Scholars - "Failure to Control Speed" Citation - Looking for Advice

[destrekor]

https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/failure-to-control-speed/

Very broad definition but sounds about right for what happened.

" The driver should control the speed of the vehicle as necessary to avoid colliding with another person or vehicle."

Yup, in this case it's basically saying "you should have been going 0 MPH, but you didn't and hit someone."

 

[stargazr]

I had a similar experience a few years ago getting off I-35, but there wasn't a stop sign, just yield. I was watching traffic as it cleared while creeping forward. The guy in front of me stopped to wait for traffic in another lane, and I should have been watching him.

Anyway I didn''t get a ticket, but the cop said there wasn't much he could do and it was my fault in the accident report. Anytime you run into the back of someone it is almost always your fault legally. I would just pay the ticket.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I'm also a member of the club. Car in front of me started his right turn, and I let my car move forward while looking left to see if there were cars coming. Surprise! He had second thoughts and stopped his turn. His trailer hitch put a nice semicircular dent in my front bumper; his pickup truck unmarked. We chatted and agreed we both needed to get home for dinner. Clearly my fault, but thankfully no big deal.

I have to wonder what your guy was thinking when he decided to call the police when he must have known his license had expired. Amazing!

As others have said, I'd probably just pay the ticket and move on. It is interesting, however, that my daughter managed to total my old Camry by driving head-on into a tree without getting a ticket; that was IMHO a clear case of failure to control speed.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Anyway, at least in Ohio, if there is a definitive at fault driver, they get a ticket. And their insurance foots the bill, as we have an at-fault system. (Michigan has a "no fault" insurance system that I still can't comprehend how it exists).

The police, when called to a scene, are likely going to do one of two things: declare it a no-fault accident and cite no drivers, cite drivers for something other than fault( maybe? not sure on this one), or cite driver(s) for fault. All parties are considered individually as far as I know, i.e. multiple drivers could be cited at fault or something equivalent.

I don't think OP will be getting off scot-free just because the other driver had a suspended license. First there could be a work/medical exception for driving, and in court this driver could individually argue against his ticket (in other words an unrelated case/docket) by way of explanation and further documentation that might not have been on hand. Also, regardless of that outcome, in that your car struck his car which you admitted completely.

Now it's possible that to demonstrate for insurance purposes that there is an at-fault driver they have to issue some kind of citation, likely something broad if it's not a serious accident. You can probably argue it down to a lesser citation, not sure if it could be something that gets wiped out entirely.

Admittedly I am not entirely familiar with the process as I have never been cited at fault or otherwise cited for any accidents. For speeding, sure. First accident I was in someone pulled out in front of me, another was a highway multi-car fatality accident. That one, angrily, was found to be a no-fault accident following the investigation. I got royally fucked thanks to that one, as my car was totaled and I had liability-only insurance -- as I owned it outright as a hand-me-down I stupidly thought this was a good idea -- and thus insurance paid out nothing, not even for the rental car. Lesson learned: never again carry anything other than comprehensive ("full coverage"). Current car will be paid off at the end of the year and I won't be changing my insurance coverage. Nope.

Wow - just out of curiosity do you work in the legal realm of this type of stuff? You obviously seem well informed.

Also - the driver had a suspended license likely from getting some type of citation (speeding, driving without insurance, etc...) and forgetting about it. I'm guessing he just forgot about the court date/ticket altogother. I never understand people like that. But I mean, just to put it into perspective, in order to write down my insurance information the dude grabbed some random mail piece in his car and wrote on the back of it lol. That doesn't surprise me - I don't have random mail in my car or in my house. I address whatever is in the mail because shit that comes in the mail is SRS BUSINESS. I know that sounds like a joke - but it really isn't. There is a reason why they say the IRS will never contact you by phone - only through mail. I take my mail serious.

Regardless, the guy from the wreck isn't going to be showing up as a witness to my case as a witness to state such. Overall I find this to be ridiculous. Like I said in my other messages, I GET IT. If I do something bad (speed, drive without insurance, park where I shouldn't etc... I pay up)... But in my 15 years of driving I have never heard of this shit.

I'm in all honest sad people are agreeing with this too - It's a law that is SPECIFICALLY designed to generate revenue - hence the broad English definition. It's a complete load of shit to justify writing a ticket for an accident. I already feel shitty enough for the accident - plus insurance hikes for the accident - but on top of it you have to write me a citation? Fuck off scumbag cops. Like I said, you could write a ticket for this for hitting a squirrel that runs into the middle of the road. You didn't adjust your speed fast enough!

Last time I had a wreck was in college when I was young, stupid, and (more importantly) had a seizure while driving. The cop came to get a police report... made a report... and went on his merry way. So this whole writing a ticket thing is just completely new to me. Had I known this I would have insisted not calling the cops for a report - and to be honest, next time if the person insists I would simply give him my information and leave.



Also FWIW - I live in Texas. Not sure if anyone here is knowledgeable about driving/traffic laws in Texas - but if it helps....

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

That does sound like a stupid law if it's not taking the speed limit into account. You hit someone doing probably no more than 5km/h it's not like you were doing 100 in a 40 zone and smashed into someone, but the ticket/charge is making it sound like that and will appear as such on your record. I would get a good lawyer and fight it so they can downgrade it to something more reasonable that would be on par with bumping into someone.

Though if this ticket is less than a grand and does not involve demerit points then it might not even be worth fighting. It's a BS charge but what can you do, it's you against the cop's word basically.

Ticket will definitely be less than a grand, I would hope less than $300 to be honest. This shitty county/city hasn't even gotten the citation in their system for me to look up the fine yet.

This is the first time I've gotten a ticket, and it has no court date on it and no fee/fine... Apparently I'm supposed to either call them and ask or somehow look it up online? Absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Also - it's the cop's word against mine but here is the problem: The cop cannot cite what happened. He wasn't there.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You weren't on the clear to proceed after stopping at the stop sign. The vehicle you bumped you incorrectly assumed to have left that intersection, was still in front of your vehicle. In this particular situation you look left (check incoming traffic), right (to check if it's clear/person crossing), and then left and right again before proceeding to cross and turn right.

I live near 3 STOP SIGNs and most of the drivers of these vehicles don't a complete STOP, they slow down and go.

Now based on what you and that other person told the LEO, the ticket was issued. I'd pay the fine and move on.

if you bump somebody's car because of your own movement, you're at fault. this is regardless of whether or not they have a license or not.

as for whether or not to take it to court, IANAL. i'd probably just pay it but it might not hurt to ask a lawyer. they might know of some way to play it to avoid the points and record.

I full on admitted it if you read my OP. It was my fault for hitting the person.

My issue and reason for posting is STRICTLY for the citation - which looks like the legal written law is a load of shit.

Again, I've had a previous wreck in my life where the cop came - made a report and went on his merry way. Do you guys just live in areas where this is normal to always write citations for every accident or something? Maybe I'm just unaware of what is normal?

I mean just knowing that there are practically thousands of car accidents around the US every single day, it seems ridiculous to act as if writing a citation for each accident is reasonable.

 

[ImpulsE69]

The only times in the accidents where police were involved tickets were not written was if it was weather related (or animal related). Generally, if you don't want a ticket, you don't call the police. If the guy called the police, and there was no visible damage/he wasn't hurt, most likely he's looking to do some insurance damage on your behalf would be my guess. Or he's just paranoid.

If insurance is your worry, then it can't hurt to appear and fight it....but I find it highly unlikely they'll lower or drop it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

My advice is to pay more attention when driving and stop getting angry over the expected punishment when it comes, especially when you already accept the blame for being an idiot. The cop was doing his job and, quite frankly, I think more of these citations need to be enforced daily. It seems that various "reckless driving" and "failure to stop" and all that stuff is so rarely enforced these days. I've watched cops pull up to a stoplight, just behind a dude that blatantly ran that light a few seconds before, and just not doing anything. It's nuts.

Hell, I got pulled over for CA stopping through a stop sign about 3 feet in front of my house 2 years ago. I did it, I get it, it was my fault. I even told myself that week that this is something that I keep doing around here, and need to adjust back to "East coast rules" before I get nailed for it. I got nailed for it. whatever. I wish that cops would hang out on that street more often, because it's nothing but ricers farting their way up and down the street all day long, pounded through that stop sign and others.

your comparison to hitting a squirrel as the same incident related to your citation is stupid.

How is the comparison stupid? By that broad legal definition, it fits the bill. That's my point though - creating laws specifically just to generate revenue is ridiculous. Creating laws to enforce safety standards such as speeding limitations makes sense.

Also I'm not angry in the slightest - at least not at any of the other parties (other driver or the cop). If anything I'm just disappointed in myself that I had to waste another human's time because of my own stupidity. If anything just find it ridiculous in that I'm already going to get hit with insurance costs for the wreck - now I'm going to get additional insurance costs from the citation for the SAME fucking event? Seems a bit twisted, no?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I'm also a member of the club. Car in front of me started his right turn, and I let my car move forward while looking left to see if there were cars coming. Surprise! He had second thoughts and stopped his turn. His trailer hitch put a nice semicircular dent in my front bumper; his pickup truck unmarked. We chatted and agreed we both needed to get home for dinner. Clearly my fault, but thankfully no big deal.

I have to wonder what your guy was thinking when he decided to call the police when he must have known his license had expired. Amazing!

As others have said, I'd probably just pay the ticket and move on. It is interesting, however, that my daughter managed to total my old Camry by driving head-on into a tree without getting a ticket; that was IMHO a clear case of failure to control speed.

Glad to not be the only one. Seems that multiple people here like myself made the mistake of assuming the driver in front of us had intelligence.

In all honesty though, it's not surprising to me the guy I hit didn't know he had an expired license.... All it takes is to get a speeding ticket or parking ticket and forgetting about it.

I mean, I would never forget about a ticket because I MAKE SURE I don't - but there's plenty of people that are just simply unorganized in life and never check their mail or read their mail. Doesn't sound surprising to me in the least. The guy took my information on the back of an envelope if that tells you something about his prudent he is about ensuring he reads his mail.

I do get a slight grin though - insisting you call the cops but getting fucked over yourself heh.

 

[destrekor]

Seems that multiple people here like myself made the mistake of assuming the driver in front of us had intelligence.
.

Yup that's the first mistake. The only time we can assume any intelligence is behind the wheel is when artificial intelligence truly takes the wheel everywhere.

 

[JEDIYoda]

He was plying pocket pool!!

 

[zinfamous]

How is the comparison stupid? By that broad legal definition, it fits the bill. That's my point though - creating laws specifically just to generate revenue is ridiculous. Creating laws to enforce safety standards such as speeding limitations makes sense.

Also I'm not angry in the slightest - at least not at any of the other parties (other driver or the cop). If anything I'm just disappointed in myself that I had to waste another human's time because of my own stupidity. If anything just find it ridiculous in that I'm already going to get hit with insurance costs for the wreck - now I'm going to get additional insurance costs from the citation for the SAME fucking event? Seems a bit twisted, no?

It's stupid because you aren't going to be cited for hitting a squirrel.

I mean, that was pretty easy, wasn't it?

Yes, I agree that it sucks the other dude got the cops and insurance involved, especially it it wasn't a real damage situation. It pretty much screwed both parties. I've been lucky in the past, where I was unable to slow down, due to rain an traffic, to let someone merge (spacing), so I sped up a little bit, then the old lady in front of me stopped her car, for some reason, on the expressway. Obviously, this was still all my fault. Damaged my radiator but frame was OK. But she got out, no problem to her car, and drove away....that could have been way worse for me, and so it has never appeared on my record (now ~15 years ago).

Dude in a parking lot drove into my car a few years ago, trying to make a left turn into notoriously-narrow MD shopping mall lots with his giant and unnecessarily stupid pickup truck, while I was already in position to make my right turn exit. He just kept turning and wouldn't stop. ....I got some of his paint, a dent that I popped out with my hand, and a cracked tail light casing. But we didn't bother with insurance. Honestly, that's been more my experience, but life shits on you some time and you end up with an idiot that really doesn't have enough experience to understand that "the right thing" is often the wrong thing.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

It's stupid because you aren't going to be cited for hitting a squirrel.

I mean, that was pretty easy, wasn't it?

Yes, I agree that it sucks the other dude got the cops and insurance involved, especially it it wasn't a real damage situation. It pretty much screwed both parties. I've been lucky in the past, where I was unable to slow down, due to rain an traffic, to let someone merge (spacing), so I sped up a little bit, then the old lady in front of me stopped her car, for some reason, on the expressway. Obviously, this was still all my fault. Damaged my radiator but frame was OK. But she got out, no problem to her car, and drove away....that could have been way worse for me, and so it has never appeared on my record (now ~15 years ago).

Dude in a parking lot drove into my car a few years ago, trying to make a left turn into notoriously-narrow MD shopping mall lots with his giant and unnecessarily stupid pickup truck, while I was already in position to make my right turn exit. He just kept turning and wouldn't stop. ....I got some of his paint, a dent that I popped out with my hand, and a cracked tail light casing. But we didn't bother with insurance. Honestly, that's been more my experience, but life shits on you some time and you end up with an idiot that really doesn't have enough experience to understand that "the right thing" is often the wrong thing.

Yeah, I don't understand why people get a hard-on for their vehicles. I get it if you spent $50k+ for some nice vehicle and it's < 2 years old... But t his was some beater-jeep that I hit. He says I might have slightly bent the thing that holds his spare tire inward that sticks out in the back. Oh NO! The HORROR! That will surely affect your re-sale value... that rotting/rusting dent in your upper left rear of the car? Naw, that won't. Since the spare tire sticks out I didn't even tap the bumper.

Instead he's going to make an insurance claim for mere pennies. It seems so silly. Again, I understand if by me hitting your vehicle it goes down in value substantially - or needs a repair in order for it to operate again.

That's why I'm glad I drive a beater car. Ding my car. Hit my car. Scratch my car. I don't give a flying fuck. An added dent might make its value decrease by $1.50.

I've also never been robbed, and what car I drive I guarantee plays a factor

 

[dainthomas]

Lol at the dummy calling the cops when he had an expired license.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Lol at the dummy calling the cops when he had an expired license.

Like I said - Just like plenty others I'm guessing he just didn't know. I'm RELIGIOUS with my US postal mail. I make sure to open and read everything in full.

For someone that doesn't keep up with their mail? Yeah, I can see them not knowing.

Hell, my wife was like that. Makes me /facepalm.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I guess the moral of the story is sometimes doing "the right thing" is just not always a good idea. But guess the problem is the guy can then turn around and say it was a hit and run, so it's really hard to judge what's the best thing to do. If the guy is not an asshole, all you end up paying is the damage, and move on, but if the guy is an asshole then it could be a living hell.

 

[brianmanahan]

Again, I've had a previous wreck in my life where the cop came - made a report and went on his merry way. Do you guys just live in areas where this is normal to always write citations for every accident or something? Maybe I'm just unaware of what is normal?

wait they didn't hit you with a ticket for the seizure related one? mos def they cited that where i am from.

i've never heard of an accident without a citation around here. it's why when i hit a deer i just drove home and didn't call the cops. there was a %100 chance they would have given me a ticket, even though the stupid thing just ran out in front of me when i was climbing a hill going 10mph under the speed limit.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

wait they didn't hit you with a ticket for the seizure related one? mos def they cited that where i am from.

i've never heard of an accident without a citation around here. it's why when i hit a deer i just drove home and didn't call the cops. there was a %100 chance they would have given me a ticket, even though the stupid thing just ran out in front of me when i was climbing a hill going 10mph under the speed limit.

Seizure one I basically came back to my senses while driving (woke up is the wrong word since when I have a seizure my body acts as if that time didn't exist)... So I pulled into the nearest gas station....

Got out of car, and see in the front of my car I had clearly hit something since it was smashed in... 5 seconds later a guy pulls in and basically says "Dude you hit me"... All I could do was reply.. ."So I did...." basically...

He calls the cops for a report, cop comes and writes a report - that was it. Admitting a seizure sure as hell wouldn't have helped my situation, since that would have resulting in a minimum 6 month license suspension. I guess it's a good thing my seizures at the time were me blanking out instead of violently convulsing.

But yeah, no ticket for that - So that was my impression - especially since I never heard otherwise that wreck = citation. But at the same time, it's not like it's a subject I research often. The last accident I had was the seizure incident in college ~10+ years ago.

 

[destrekor]

wait they didn't hit you with a ticket for the seizure related one? mos def they cited that where i am from.

i've never heard of an accident without a citation around here. it's why when i hit a deer i just drove home and didn't call the cops. there was a %100 chance they would have given me a ticket, even though the stupid thing just ran out in front of me when i was climbing a hill going 10mph under the speed limit.

That's part of the joy that is Ohio, I suspect. Cops here are fucking ridiculous, it's all about revenue and, for some, teaching hard lessons by bending you over.

So many stupid accidents I'm not even sure really deserve citations. Yes in the accident report state that there is a party at fault, but we don't really need tickets for rolling forward and giving a love tap to the car in front. Everyone knows how stupid that was and is likely to have learned that they should pay more attention. Not that that means they won't do it again, but honestly, we're speaking about humans here -- some are just so thickheaded that there are few lessons that will ever stick without painful repetition, and even that is questionable.

 

[destrekor]

Seizure one I basically came back to my senses while driving (woke up is the wrong word since when I have a seizure my body acts as if that time didn't exist)... So I pulled into the nearest gas station....

Got out of car, and see in the front of my car I had clearly hit something since it was smashed in... 5 seconds later a guy pulls in and basically says "Dude you hit me"... All I could do was reply.. ."So I did...." basically...

He calls the cops for a report, cop comes and writes a report - that was it. Admitting a seizure sure as hell wouldn't have helped my situation, since that would have resulting in a minimum 6 month license suspension. I guess it's a good thing my seizures at the time were me blanking out instead of violently convulsing.

But yeah, no ticket for that - So that was my impression - especially since I never heard otherwise that wreck = citation. But at the same time, it's not like it's a subject I research often. The last accident I had was the seizure incident in college ~10+ years ago.

As far as seizures go, those partial seizures are more common. Grand mal type (the body convulsing) are more or less the exception. Yes some people only experience that, but partial seizures are more likely. It can range from spacing out, completely blacking out, going 180 degrees behaviorally, to a wide range of outcomes. Many seizures only deal with a small part of the brain, whereas grand mal essentially seizes all or nearly all of the brain.
The brain is at once beautiful and absolutely terrifying.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Probably should not be driving if you're prone to seizures. A girl was killed in front of her friends at school near my parents' house when her dad came to pick her up and had a seizure and lost control and pinned her through the fence with the pickup truck at high speed.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I got rear ended a couple years ago and the cops wouldn’t even come out unless there were injuries. Girl did $9k worth of damage to my car and got no citation whatsoever. Her car was totaled for sure.

That was a dick move by the cop in your case.

 

[nOOky]

In my part of MD, it always pays to go to court. The typical "good deal" is you pay all the costs you would have normally, but the points get dropped, so your insurance doesn't go up. The "awesome deal" is the cop doesn't show up, and you pay nothing. It never happened. The judge can also *raise* the penalty, but I've never seen that happen. You probably have to in as a raging asshole, and piss the judge off for that.

This. Even if you did the deed, you can talk with the prosecutor and request that you pay a lessor fine, and if your record remains clear for a year it never shows up at all. I just woke up or I'd remember what it's called lol

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Probably should not be driving if you're prone to seizures. A girl was killed in front of her friends at school near my parents' house when her dad came to pick her up and had a seizure and lost control and pinned her through the fence with the pickup truck at high speed.

Kind of why I had surgery and haven't had a full seizure since

As far as seizures go, those partial seizures are more common. Grand mal type (the body convulsing) are more or less the exception. Yes some people only experience that, but partial seizures are more likely. It can range from spacing out, completely blacking out, going 180 degrees behaviorally, to a wide range of outcomes. Many seizures only deal with a small part of the brain, whereas grand mal essentially seizes all or nearly all of the brain.
The brain is at once beautiful and absolutely terrifying.

Yeah I know, I've been through all that fun stuff. What I would consider my partial seizures would actually be where I get a random feeling of fear. I had those very early on as a kid but then it seemed to go away. Apparently it came back in full force during college. It was actually after that car wreck incident that I decided surgery was the best option, so they had me to stay in a hospital for about a week to force me to have as many grand mals as possible while attached to electrodes.

 

[ondma]

Anyway, at least in Ohio, if there is a definitive at fault driver, they get a ticket. And their insurance foots the bill, as we have an at-fault system. (Michigan has a "no fault" insurance system that I still can't comprehend how it exists).

The police, when called to a scene, are likely going to do one of two things: declare it a no-fault accident and cite no drivers, cite drivers for something other than fault( maybe? not sure on this one), or cite driver(s) for fault. All parties are considered individually as far as I know, i.e. multiple drivers could be cited at fault or something equivalent.

I don't think OP will be getting off scot-free just because the other driver had a suspended license. First there could be a work/medical exception for driving, and in court this driver could individually argue against his ticket (in other words an unrelated case/docket) by way of explanation and further documentation that might not have been on hand. Also, regardless of that outcome, in that your car struck his car which you admitted completely.

Now it's possible that to demonstrate for insurance purposes that there is an at-fault driver they have to issue some kind of citation, likely something broad if it's not a serious accident. You can probably argue it down to a lesser citation, not sure if it could be something that gets wiped out entirely.

Admittedly I am not entirely familiar with the process as I have never been cited at fault or otherwise cited for any accidents. For speeding, sure. First accident I was in someone pulled out in front of me, another was a highway multi-car fatality accident. That one, angrily, was found to be a no-fault accident following the investigation. I got royally fucked thanks to that one, as my car was totaled and I had liability-only insurance -- as I owned it outright as a hand-me-down I stupidly thought this was a good idea -- and thus insurance paid out nothing, not even for the rental car. Lesson learned: never again carry anything other than comprehensive ("full coverage"). Current car will be paid off at the end of the year and I won't be changing my insurance coverage. Nope.

It is pretty much like a lot of things in life. Just have to play the odds. After a certain point, the odds favor carrying liability only. That said, I am still carrying full coverage on an older car, which in an accident, would most likely be totaled and I would only get a couple of thousand.