Atot carpenters or structural engineers opinions needed

[MagnusTheBrewer]

As someone with structural engineering training... lol. Whoever "braced" (probably the last owner) obviously didn't know what they were doing. Supporting the new bracing with the ceiling was even dumber...

Call a contractor to check it out. A competent one could take care of it for you, and they'll know if they need a permit or not.

Yes, they need a permit even in Texas.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

OP, I would definitely not buy this place until it's brought up to code.

 

[DrPizza]

"That don't look right to me!"
Send a PM to Greenman - he's probably the best source I can think of here on this issue. I personally think it's a structural issue - the original trusses were not adequate - they were built on site, using a best guess.

If it were my own house, depending on the span, I don't think I'd have much of an issue doing a do-it-yourself project and ripping the entire roof off, putting in brand new trusses, then reroofing the whole thing. It'd be fun! I think. Of course, on a project that size, that I'd budget a long weekend for, things would inevitably go wrong.

 

[paperfist]

OP better call Mike Holmes!

Those 2 x 4's look to be 18 or even 24 on center and there doesn't appear to be ANY trusses except the "bracing" that was "installed." None of that is up to code anywhere in the U.S. If that pic is indicative of the entire garage roof, you've got some serious structural issues. It makes me wonder if the garage is this bad, what corners did they cut on the houses roof?

Makes me wonder what thickness plywood they used...

How wide is the garage?

 

[drnickriviera]

Those 2 x 4's look to be 18 or even 24 on center and there doesn't appear to be ANY trusses except the "bracing" that was "installed." None of that is up to code anywhere in the U.S. If that pic is indicative of the entire garage roof, you've got some serious structural issues. It makes me wonder if the garage is this bad, what corners did they cut on the houses roof?

I agree with this. Trusses should have some diagonal bracing /\/\ type pattern. Need more pictures and measurements.

 

[edro]

There are plenty of houses out there.
Unless you are totally in love with this house, I would move on.

The sag in the roof tells the story. The joists are defective and they tried to hold them up with the roof trusses... which caused the roof to sag.
If you ever want that roof to be flat again, you will have to replace some of the framing in the attic and re-roof the whole house.

You can always get quotes to fix it properly and counteroffer that it be repaired before you buy.
Definitely get your own contractor to inspect it and give quotes.
DO NOT go on his hired contractor's word alone.

 

[Squisher]

That bracing is epic. :biggrin: My first inclination was to think that someone had stored a lot of heavy stuff on the joists in the attic of the garage which bowed the ceiling and that caused the rafters to bow, but that looks more like rafters bowed and when they put in the bracing that cased the ceiling of the garage to bow. I kinda stayed out of this thread because you got a lot of good advice already, you need estimates from at least 3 contractors.

 

[Modelworks]

Trusses are made from 2x4's almost exclusively, removing the roof would almost be crazy except for severe damage from rot or fire, etc.

Assuming this is a gable roof, sagging ridge/splayed walls are not that big of deal. A decent framing contractor will be able to repair it at a relatively small cost in a day or two.

Yes they are made of 2x4's but you don't use those same 2x4's to support the ceiling. If you see 2x4's supporting a ceiling and that ceiling has an attic space above it, then it was done wrong. a 2x4 is NOT a load bearing size of wood when horizontal. It should be a minimum of 2x8, 2x10 preferably that the trusses rest onto and then the drywall could attach to that. A truss is made to support the roof and not the ceiling , the entire span of the garage all on a 2x4.

 

[Zargon]

those pics are SCARY.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Thanks for the opinions. To answer a couple questions: The house was built in '75. The only reason I haven't just walked away because it's in an area we want to live, nice neighborhood, convenient to a few stores, an acre of wooded land, it's got a workshop, etc.. I can't find anything comparable for the money even though it looks to need some significant roof work done. I will walk away if necessary repairs aren't made though. They have a contractor looking at it today so I should know more later.

 

[sdifox]

I would walk away.

 

[bruceb]

I agree, that garage was not built to code. Almost looks the homeowner did it himself. All the sheetrock needs to come down, then proper joists (2 x 6 or 2 x 8) and roof rafters (again 2 x 6 or 2 x 8) installed on 16 inch centers, roof resheated in new plywood (3/4 inch) and reshingled. This is a somewhat large job and a lot also depends on if the garage walls were properly framed with a good foundation under them. If not, either don't buy this house or just tear down the garage and rebuild anew. Check with town / city to see if this was on the original plans or added later and if a permit was issued. I am betting, it was not on the original plans and you will not find a permit for it.

 

[Jaepheth]

Just stick some bolts through the roof and attach a few thousand balloons to pull it back into place. Piece of cake.

 

[bonkers325]

after seeing those pictures, i would be weary about purchasing the house. while those types of trusses do work (they're called vierendeel trusses), 2x4s are absolutely insufficient to develop the necessary strength to transfer forces in the truss.

either way you do it, it's either a costly renovation/repair job, or you're going to have to take down the garage and rebuild+reshingle+rewaterproof etc.


edit:
the sheetrock ceiling has to be repaired or replaced. you can see it's been patched by the previous owner.

the roof integrity needs to be checked, especially waterproofing to make sure you have no moisture intrusion issues. check the flashing to make sure it hasn't been damaged.

any wall that is shared with the garage should be checked for plumbness, moisture intrusion, cracks on the wall, signs of distress, etc. if the roof is sagging, it could mean the ends of the roof truss have shifted slightly, causing other things to move with it as well.

 

[DrPizza]

Yes they are made of 2x4's but you don't use those same 2x4's to support the ceiling. If you see 2x4's supporting a ceiling and that ceiling has an attic space above it, then it was done wrong. a 2x4 is NOT a load bearing size of wood when horizontal. It should be a minimum of 2x8, 2x10 preferably that the trusses rest onto and then the drywall could attach to that. A truss is made to support the roof and not the ceiling , the entire span of the garage all on a 2x4.

Yes, you can hang drywall from 2x4 trusses. You're right - there wouldn't be an attic space above them. But, you don't just slap a bunch of 2x4's in a big triangle and randomly hammer a few 2x4's across the middle and call them a truss. Also, the span of the garage may not be A 2x4, it could be two 2x4s joined together with a plate.
Here's a similar discussion - note that no one is questioning the 2x4s; simply the thickness of the drywall to prevent "waves" from sagging since the 2x4s are 24" on center.
https://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=9307

edit: and I thought vierendeel trusses were rectangular - sort of like a ladder laying on its edge. That's not the type of trusses he has. He has "cobbled together, we thought that tossing in more 2x4s was better" trusses. I think that with the vertical supports, they're king or queen post trusses, and I thought for wider spans, the horizontal member would have to be stronger than a 2x4.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Well the seller had a local home builder out to look at it. He told her that he will not jack the house up and brace it. To be done right it's going to be a 3 day job. I believe he's going to totally rebuild it. I'm supposed to meet with him and go over what repairs are going to be done. They haven't got an official estimate but supposedly the builder said it would be thousands of dollars.

 

[Modelworks]

Yes, you can hang drywall from 2x4 trusses. You're right - there wouldn't be an attic space above them. But, you don't just slap a bunch of 2x4's in a big triangle and randomly hammer a few 2x4's across the middle and call them a truss. Also, the span of the garage may not be A 2x4, it could be two 2x4s joined together with a plate.
Here's a similar discussion - note that no one is questioning the 2x4s; simply the thickness of the drywall to prevent "waves" from sagging since the 2x4s are 24" on center.
https://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=9307

You can use them for putting up drywall but the red flag for me is when he said attic space. The pictures in that article show a structure that isn't built to code, to start with look at the window framing. No inspector would pass that.

I learned framing from my dad and he learned from his dad , they built my grandmothers home by hauling logs out of the woods with a mule and carrying them to the mill, I had to hear those stories hundreds of times 🙂.
I actually designed my first home because I didn't like some of the shortcuts that builders take now so I learned about building codes a lot. I don't think people realize how cheap it is to overbuild during construction vs trying to correct something down the road that weakened.

edit: and I thought vierendeel trusses were rectangular - sort of like a ladder laying on its edge. That's not the type of trusses he has. He has "cobbled together, we thought that tossing in more 2x4s was better" trusses. I think that with the vertical supports, they're king or queen post trusses, and I thought for wider spans, the horizontal member would have to be stronger than a 2x4.

He has what look like plywood joined trusses that were popular before the engineered trusses. Carpenters often put them together on site and when done right there is nothing wrong with that. But often they were done wrong. My limit for spanning with a 2x4 and supporting drywall is about 8ft. any more than that I would rather just go up a size in lumber. I really don't like joining 2 - 2x4 to cross a wider space unless the joint has support from top or bottom.

 

[waffleironhead]

1) remove all the GWB from ceiling
2) Jack up roof
3) add additional rafters

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Well the seller had a local home builder out to look at it. He told her that he will not jack the house up and brace it. To be done right it's going to be a 3 day job. I believe he's going to totally rebuild it. I'm supposed to meet with him and go over what repairs are going to be done. They haven't got an official estimate but supposedly the builder said it would be thousands of dollars.

Sounds about right. An individual could do it cheaper (assuming they knew what they were doing) but, would also have to deal with getting a permit. A contractor takes care of that for you. A prudent owner would get more than one estimate but, it's not your money.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

After seeing those pictures I would RUN not walk away from that house. If the contruction is that shoddy on the roof I would bet it is the same throughout the house. I bet after 35yrs there is not a plumb wall or straight surface in that house. Look at the doors in all areas of the house they should tell the tale, I bet every one of them have evidence of adjustment just so they will open and close.

 

[waffleironhead]

He has what look like plywood joined trusses that were popular before the engineered trusses. Carpenters often put them together on site and when done right there is nothing wrong with that. But often they were done wrong. My limit for spanning with a 2x4 and supporting drywall is about 8ft. any more than that I would rather just go up a size in lumber. I really don't like joining 2 - 2x4 to cross a wider space unless the joint has support from top or bottom.

Yes there are site built trusses, and they can be just as strong and effective as factory produced ones, but that isnt the case here. If you look at the color of the lumber used, its easy to tell that the supports were added at a later date to make up for structural problems.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

After seeing those pictures I would RUN not walk away from that house. If the contruction is that shoddy on the roof I would bet it is the same throughout the house. I bet after 35yrs there is not a plumb wall or straight surface in that house. Look at the doors in all areas of the house they should tell the tale, I bet every one of them have evidence of adjustment just so they will open and close.

Actually it's the the total opposite. There isn't a crack in the bricks outside the house, all doors and windows shut perfectly, etc.. For being in Texas you'd think the house would of shown signs of settling but the house is a rock. They might of overlooked the roofing over the garage but you can tell this was no budget home. I've seen homes that look like total garbage that are maybe 10 years old.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Actually it's the the total opposite. There isn't a crack in the bricks outside the house, all doors and windows shut perfectly, etc.. For being in Texas you'd think the house would of shown signs of settling but the house is a rock. They might of overlooked the roofing over the garage but you can tell this was no budget home. I've seen homes that look like total garbage that are maybe 10 years old.

Yup, it looks like the same kind of situation where a previous owner decides to enclose a porch/patio and does it the cheapest way possible without a permit. The garage just needs to be done right instead of being "repaired." In the long run, it's much, much cheaper to do it right.

 

[Greenman]

47 reply's and no one has come up with the right answer, though a few are pretty close.

This is why I don't answer construction questions on AT.

 

[911paramedic]

I would walk away.

QFT

One of the first things you look at when buying a house is whether or not the roof is sagging at all, because it's an indicator of major problems.

No matter how much you love the place, bite the bullet and walk away. You are going to save yourself a lot of heartache by doing so. Sorry. 🙁