Atkins/high fat/low carb diets are not healthy

[SP33Demon]

To investigate the matter, Anthony Rosenzweig and his team fed mice one of three diets for a 12-week period. Their method and findings are published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science.

The low carbohydrate-high protein (LCHP) contained 12 per cent carbohydrate, 43 per cent fat, 45 per cent protein and 0.15 per cent cholesterol. The standard mouse chow diet had for 65 per cent carbs, 15 per cent fat and 20 per cent protein. The ?typical Western? diet (WD) 43 had carbohydrate, 42 per cent fat, 15 per cent protein, and 0.15 per cent cholesterol.

The team found that the mice on the LCHP diet had gained less weight than the mice on the standard diet, but they had 15 per cent more aortic atherosclerosis ? the thickening of artery walls due to plaque formation ? and generated fewer new vessels in response to tissue ischemia. These changes could not be explained by changes in serum cholesterol, inflammatory mediators or infiltrates or oxidative stress.

By contrast, the WD mice group had 9 per cent more atherosclerosis than those on the standard chow.

Text

Upping your intake to 40-45% fat calories will put you at risk. Will you lose weight? Probably, but you will pay the price for it down the road.

One thing I wish they added to the study was another control group with 42/43/15 protein/carbs/fat to see what the effect of changing out carbs to protein had on plaque buildup in the arteries vs the standard chow. I doubt it would be that significant.

 

[skace]

They need to solve why it occurred before the information is useful.

 

[KingGheedora]

Something that doesn't make sense to me is that i thought there were other studies that showed that the amount of calories being the same, where your calories come from don't make a difference.Yet the above states that the mice on the LCHF gained less weight than the mice on the standard mouse chow diet. Am I missing something or is there a conflict between these two studies? It seems the one cited by the OP suggests that calories from different sources are not equal , which seems kind of odd.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: KingGheedora
Something that doesn't make sense to me is that i thought there were other studies that showed that the amount of calories being the same, where your calories come from don't make a difference.Yet the above states that the mice on the LCHF gained less weight than the mice on the standard mouse chow diet. Am I missing something or is there a conflict between these two studies? It seems the one cited by the OP suggests that calories from different sources are not equal , which seems kind of odd.

Whatever study you read doesn't quite seem to be well informed or may have not taken certain things into mind. If you take in x amount of calories in carbs, it is not the same as x amount of calories as fat (to some extent) due to the thermogenic effect. The thermogenic effect is a phenomenon that takes the method of digestion of a certain nutrient into mind. Some nutrients take a higher amount of calories to digest, therefore changing the net calories gained more steeply.

Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

 

[Deeko]

Yes - and when they do it to lose weight and then return to their old diet, they gain the weight back. Hence the problem with Atkins. Do it for a short time - lose weight, gain it back, avoid long term affects. Do it for life - stay skinny, die of side effects.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Deeko
Yes - and when they do it to lose weight and then return to their old diet, they gain the weight back. Hence the problem with Atkins. Do it for a short time - lose weight, gain it back, avoid long term affects. Do it for life - stay skinny, die of side effects.

That's not entirely true. They purge a lot of water when they aren't taking in carbs. That weight is lost and gained back. However, if they do it right, they will only gain the 5-8 pounds of water weight back. Why do you think bodybuilders cut with high fat, low carb diets? Because it's the quickest they can cut.

I agree that Atkins isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about it, but you can keep the weight off if you're not unreasonable about your diet and you continue to track your calories/watch what you eat.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Deeko
Yes - and when they do it to lose weight and then return to their old diet, they gain the weight back. Hence the problem with Atkins. Do it for a short time - lose weight, gain it back, avoid long term affects. Do it for life - stay skinny, die of side effects.

That's not entirely true. They purge a lot of water when they aren't taking in carbs. That weight is lost and gained back. However, if they do it right, they will only gain the 5-8 pounds of water weight back. Why do you think bodybuilders cut with high fat, low carb diets? Because it's the quickest they can cut.

I agree that Atkins isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about it, but you can keep the weight off if you're not unreasonable about your diet and you continue to track your calories/watch what you eat.

See the bolded part. Their old diet is what made them fat. They weren't born that way, as much as they'd like you to think that.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Deeko
Yes - and when they do it to lose weight and then return to their old diet, they gain the weight back. Hence the problem with Atkins. Do it for a short time - lose weight, gain it back, avoid long term affects. Do it for life - stay skinny, die of side effects.

That's not entirely true. They purge a lot of water when they aren't taking in carbs. That weight is lost and gained back. However, if they do it right, they will only gain the 5-8 pounds of water weight back. Why do you think bodybuilders cut with high fat, low carb diets? Because it's the quickest they can cut.

I agree that Atkins isn't exactly the healthiest way to go about it, but you can keep the weight off if you're not unreasonable about your diet and you continue to track your calories/watch what you eat.

See the bolded part. Their old diet is what made them fat. They weren't born that way, as much as they'd like you to think that.

And I said they wouldn't gain it back if they didn't return to their old diet, but a new, healthy one. We're addressing two different, but correct points.

 

[StageLeft]

LOL @ Fatkins diet, so glad that fad is done with for now. I wonder where all the fatkins defenders have gone off to.

 

[NGC_604]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
LOL @ Fatkins diet, so glad that fad is done with for now. I wonder where all the fatkins defenders have gone off to.

Probably eating 300+ g of processed carbs a day, wondering why they can't lose weight even though the bag of mini muffins says it's made with whole grains.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

 

[Pantlegz]

Originally posted by: energydan

Originally posted by: Skoorb
LOL @ Fatkins diet, so glad that fad is done with for now. I wonder where all the fatkins defenders have gone off to.

Probably eating 300+ g of processed carbs a day, wondering why they can't lose weight even though the bag of mini muffins says it's made with whole grains.

this made me laugh, just a little. But I know fat people that really think like this 🙁

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

Low carb, high fat, high protein diets ARE a suitable solution for some on short term scales. Long term negates any benefits, while short term can be utilized to get to a healthier scenario.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

Low carb, high fat, high protein diets ARE a suitable solution for some on short term scales. Long term negates any benefits, while short term can be utilized to get to a healthier scenario.

 

[silverpig]

Uh, it's a freaking mouse?

I wonder what would happen if they fed an octopus this diet. "New study shows Atkins completely undigestible, deadly."

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: silverpig
Uh, it's a freaking mouse?

I wonder what would happen if they fed an octopus this diet. "New study shows Atkins completely undigestible, deadly."

Mice are surprisingly alike in many senses. Often times, mouse research is applicable to humans. This is one such case.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: energydan

Originally posted by: Skoorb
LOL @ Fatkins diet, so glad that fad is done with for now. I wonder where all the fatkins defenders have gone off to.

Probably eating 300+ g of processed carbs a day, wondering why they can't lose weight even though the bag of mini muffins says it's made with whole grains.

They're all sitting in the waiting rooms of their cardiologist's office waiting for a prescription for his/her statin of choice. lol

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

Low carb, high fat, high protein diets ARE a suitable solution for some on short term scales. Long term negates any benefits, while short term can be utilized to get to a healthier scenario.

You missed the point. I said that a high protein/high carb/low fat diet is the suitable solution over Atkins, i.e. better than Atkins. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Atkins will always do more damage to your body long or short term vs highpro/highcarb/low fat.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: silverpig
Uh, it's a freaking mouse?

I wonder what would happen if they fed an octopus this diet. "New study shows Atkins completely undigestible, deadly."

Mice are surprisingly alike in many senses. Often times, mouse research is applicable to humans. This is one such case.

Yep, agreed. Mice have helped us develop many of our current drugs today.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

Low carb, high fat, high protein diets ARE a suitable solution for some on short term scales. Long term negates any benefits, while short term can be utilized to get to a healthier scenario.

You missed the point. I said that a high protein/high carb/low fat diet is the suitable solution over Atkins, i.e. better than Atkins. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Atkins will always do more damage to your body long or short term vs highpro/highcarb/low fat.

Are they not the same thing? Or is Atkin's ketogenic?

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, in reference to the OP: we've already known this. People do have an easier time losing weight with a high fat diet though. These people, however, are not doing this for a lifetime. They often use it as a way to lose their weight and then return to a more normal diet. The damage done is not nearly as bad as the damage that was continually being inflicted on the body due to being obese. They were getting atherosclerosis either way. However, a brief period on a high fat, low carb diet is not necessarily a big deal, especially if it helps a participant lose weight more quickly.

While the net damage may have been similar with regards to the heart, the fact of the matter is that if someone thinks Atkins is a permanent fix and adheres to that lifestyle they are harming themselves with fat calories just as much as carbs. Hence Atkins is never a suitable solution (long term or short) to lose weight and a high protein/carb-low fat diet is.

Low carb, high fat, high protein diets ARE a suitable solution for some on short term scales. Long term negates any benefits, while short term can be utilized to get to a healthier scenario.

You missed the point. I said that a high protein/high carb/low fat diet is the suitable solution over Atkins, i.e. better than Atkins. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Atkins will always do more damage to your body long or short term vs highpro/highcarb/low fat.

Are they not the same thing? Or is Atkin's ketogenic?

Atkins is ketogenic. I remember reading something like there are different phases

one is <50g carbs/ day and another <20g carb per day

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
LOL @ Fatkins diet, so glad that fad is done with for now. I wonder where all the fatkins defenders have gone off to.

Right here, and fuck you.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Are they not the same thing? Or is Atkin's ketogenic?

From what I read awhile back it makes your body ketogenic, yes.

Another common misconception arises from confusion between the Induction Phase and rest of the diet. The first two weeks of the Atkins Diet are strict, with only 20g of carbohydrates permitted per day. Atkins states that a dieter can safely stay at the Induction Phase for several months if the person has a lot of weight to lose.[40] Induction, however, is merely a stage to get the body used to fat, and cure cravings for unacceptable foods. Gradually, carbohydrate levels are raised to slow weight loss and add more acceptable foods (berries, more dairy, nuts, etc.), though carbs are still significantly below USDA norms. Once the weight-loss goal is reached, carbohydrate levels are raised again to a state of equilibrium where no weight is lost or gained, which may or may not be below USDA norms, depending on the individual's metabolism, age, and their exercise level.

What is point of getting the body "used to fat"? Also funny how they raise your carb levels eventually anyway. Cutting carbs down to 20g a day is going to shock your system and I can't see how this is healthy at all. Maybe that's why nobody does it anymore.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Are they not the same thing? Or is Atkin's ketogenic?

From what I read awhile back it makes your body ketogenic, yes.

Another common misconception arises from confusion between the Induction Phase and rest of the diet. The first two weeks of the Atkins Diet are strict, with only 20g of carbohydrates permitted per day. Atkins states that a dieter can safely stay at the Induction Phase for several months if the person has a lot of weight to lose.[40] Induction, however, is merely a stage to get the body used to fat, and cure cravings for unacceptable foods. Gradually, carbohydrate levels are raised to slow weight loss and add more acceptable foods (berries, more dairy, nuts, etc.), though carbs are still significantly below USDA norms. Once the weight-loss goal is reached, carbohydrate levels are raised again to a state of equilibrium where no weight is lost or gained, which may or may not be below USDA norms, depending on the individual's metabolism, age, and their exercise level.

What is point of getting the body "used to fat"? Also funny how they raise your carb levels eventually anyway. Cutting carbs down to 20g a day is going to shock your system and I can't see how this is healthy at all. Maybe that's why nobody does it anymore.

Uh, the point of the body getting "used to fat" is a biological accommodation. It takes time for the body to realize it is in a low-sugar environment (after glycogen has been depleted for several days). After that, the brain and body begins utilizing ketone bodies, which are broken down, processed components of fats.

Is being majorly overweight healthy? Nope. A keto diet is especially extreme for people who can't even tidy up their diets a little bit so it's marketed at the wrong people. However, bodybuilders utilize a ketogenic diet to cut down to 3-4% body fat. It's way more efficient at cutting fat and looking ripped. Bring carbs back and you gain a fair amount of water. If you control your diet thereafter though, you're a-okay. It gets people thinner faster. That often makes the difference between quitting and grunting weight-loss out.

 

[spamsk8r]

I would be interested in seeing what the ratios were for the different kinds of fats (monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, saturated, trans-fats) because this can make a huge difference. Omega-6 polyunsaturated fats are known to have deleterious effects on the body, causing systemic inflammation which leads to heart disease, whereas monounsaturated fats (as long as they are not rancid) and natural saturated fats are handled much better by the body. My guess is they used a lot of vegetable oil (which is predominantly omega-6 polyunsaturated) in these tests and that is the cause of the increased atherosclerosis.

Very low-carb diets like Atkins can be done in a healthy manner, but it requires a dependence on non-processed natural foods such as grass-fed meats, coconut oil, and green vegetables. Eating mass quantities of cured bacon and processed cheese every day isn't going to do anyone's health any favors.