ATi's CCC: Not the greatest but not that bad either.

[nib95]

Originally posted by: RobertR1

Originally posted by: Ronin
This isn't about impartiality (as you both have clearly shown). I've shown you what is in front of my face, and what you refuse to recognize. Take your precious CCC and enjoy your bloat (obviously, I'm running an ATi based card in a box, now aren't I?). Gee, you seem to have missed that little point, eh?

I'd also suggest watching how you present me, and my affiliations (trust that if ATi had boards, I'd probably be a moderator there as well, but they don't). Libel is a bad idea, Joker. Stay away from it, because you've now gone beyond the scope of acceptable reason and comment.

The burden of proof to show that the statements made by the defendant are false, is laid upon the plaintiff, in a defamation lawsuit. To make it stronger, it has to show a negative financial impact. Good luck going to an attorney to take this to trail and not getting laughed at.

All joker would have to say is that a lot of people use his computer, anandtech.com is his home page and his username/password is stored, thus it could have been anyone. This is all assuming that you had an attorney stupid enough to take the case (chances are about 1%) and the jugde hasn't thrown it out (chances are about 99%).

Next time you threaten legal action, try to put a thought behind it.

Lol, did you have to be so harsh?

 

[Ronin]

Originally posted by: RobertR1

I'll take my Law background (a Bachelors' worth of International Law as a minor, in addition to my Masters' degree studies, in addition to post grad studies at Harvard Law) over yours any day.

Joker would have to prove he's on a public computer (which I highly doubt he is), otherwise the information isn't valid. A simple warrant for his computer would absolve that silly argument.

Next time you try to post about what you think you know, try to know who you're dealing with.

That, and I wouldn't need an attorney, nor would I hire one. Self representation for someone who actually knows the Law is fairly simple. Too many assumptions make you look like a complete @ss (and an ignornamus at that).

 

[RobertR1]

Originally posted by: Ronin

Originally posted by: RobertR1

I'll take my Law background (a Bachelors' worth of International Law as a minor, in addition to my Masters' degree studies, in addition to post grad studies at Harvard Law) over yours any day.

Joker would have to prove he's on a public computer (which I highly doubt he is), otherwise the information isn't valid. A simple warrant for his computer would absolve that silly argument.

Next time you try to post about what you think you know, try to know who you're dealing with.

Your lawsuit is pathetic, at best. If it'll help you sleep easier at night at the thought of being able to sue him for defamation, then please, by all accounts, continue to believe it. I'm sure attorney's are lined up at your door to take a crack at this jackpot. Hell, they might even forego their retainer fees and do it on contingency since it's a slam dunk!

Thanks for the laugh, champ!

 

[Capt Caveman]

http://www.tweakguides.com/ATICAT_1.html

"The ATI Catalyst driver suite has come a long way over the past few years. Starting out as a troubled and often unstable and buggy set of drivers it is now as good, if not better than the competing Nvidia drivers."

 

[Ackmed]

That cant be Caveman! Not only do reviewer not have problems with CCC, but they actually like it? Hmm...

If someone cant get games to run with a X1800, its user error. Same for a newer NV card. 3dmark05 wouldnt run no matter what on my SLI system, did I proclaim that NV drivers sucked? Nope. Did I cry about it in every post? Nope.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I don't know if he's right or not but I do find that his tweakguides for games and Nvidia/ATI drivers to be super helpful. And he also adds the driver apps that can be disabled b/c they're resource hogs. In his Nvidia tweakguide, they're appears to be a lot more resource hogs like the NV Desktop manager and others.

 

[Ronin]

Originally posted by: RobertR1

Thanks for your clueless response, champ.

 

[Ackmed]

You dont have to load up CCC to make changes anyways. You can just right click the icon, and it pops up to make changes. Ive not used it in about 6-8 months, but it sure wasnt slow for me when I had it. .net 2.0 is allegedly much faster than 1.1 as well. I never installed the old CP when I had an ATi card, CCC didnt bother me at all. Its the way things will be done soon enough, when Vista launches anyways. Everyone will have .net installed, unless they dont upgrade. nHancer (the best SLI tool I have found) requires .net as well. Lots of SLI users use it, so it doesnt appear to be a problem for all NV fans.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Of actual memory yes it takes up around 17 MB and then another 3 when I load the CP, I don't count VM since I have an abundance of HD space. We're not in the early 90s anymore with 500 MB HDs.

So that means it's fine to fill that ~60MB on a typical 160GB hard disk with useless crap but it's not fine to do the same with a 500MB disk? Double standards.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
I read your post and it was pure bullshit. VM is meaningless, it's allocated to the HD. Actual memory usage is what counts and the shot you posted was taken right when CCC was actually loading up. CLI is specifically the CCC application while ATi Hot Key Poller is for OC'ing (disabled by me since I use ATi Tool). But even if you do include the latter + ATi Smart, it adds in a grand total of approximately 4 MB. Firefox was mentioned to make a point: CCC is hardly bloatware when a popular browser uses far more memory. I know you're trying hard to work for your nVidia welfare cards but FUD wont' work here. Oh and did you look at my screenshot? Memory usage is much less compared to the crap you posted.

In modern operating systems, including Windows, application programs and many system processes always reference memory using virtual memory addresses which are automatically translated to real (RAM) addresses by the hardware. Only core parts of the operating system kernel bypass this address translation and use real memory addresses directly.

Virtual Memory is always in use, even when the memory required by all running processes does not exceed the amount of RAM installed on the system.

http://www.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;555223&SD=tech

VM is the sum of physical RAM+page file.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Of actual memory yes it takes up around 17 MB and then another 3 when I load the CP, I don't count VM since I have an abundance of HD space. We're not in the early 90s anymore with 500 MB HDs.

So that means it's fine to fill that ~60MB on a typical 160GB hard disk with useless crap but it's not fine to do the same with a 500MB disk? Double standards.

I don't understand the angle of attack here. As far as being "useless" that is for you to determine and is thus your opinion. I am sure ATI feels differently about their control panel. I am pretty sure that ATI would not clog their code up in hopes to waste space. Meaning, I am sure that CCC must have a lot of features and profiles to take up that amount of space.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Of actual memory yes it takes up around 17 MB and then another 3 when I load the CP, I don't count VM since I have an abundance of HD space. We're not in the early 90s anymore with 500 MB HDs.

So that means it's fine to fill that ~60MB on a typical 160GB hard disk with useless crap but it's not fine to do the same with a 500MB disk? Double standards.

I don't understand the angle of attack here. As far as being "useless" that is for you to determine and is thus your opinion. I am sure ATI feels differently about their control panel. I am pretty sure that ATI would not clog their code up in hopes to waste space. Meaning, I am sure that CCC must have a lot of features and profiles to take up that amount of space.

Ya, back when 500mb was a lot of space, MS-DOS fit on a floppy disk!

 

[xtknight]

I guess it is an opinion. Personally, I'd rather have a lean and mean, native-coded control panel that does more with much less resource usage, like ATI Tray Tools, even if it doesn't have the '3D view'. That's the only thing it's missing as far as I know, but feel free to enlighten me if needed.

 

[Ronin]

Agreed.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I guess it is an opinion. Personally, I'd rather have a lean and mean, native-coded control panel that does more with much less resource usage, like ATI Tray Tools, even if it doesn't have the '3D view'. That's the only thing it's missing as far as I know, but feel free to enlighten me if needed.

It definately is opinion.

On a side note though, you could take that to such an extreme that you run WindowsXP with several services disabled and of course, removing the skins/themes from the system. Because after all, if you are not interested in "pretty" all those things could go... Also, you could get rid of your background picture, because that is a good waste of space, since it converts to BMP and thus isn't an efficient means to store that image... You can be as anal as you want, but once you start stating your opinion as the law, then people tend to challenge it. Besides, most people are not swayed by any speach, no matter how elegant it is written. Most people have their minds made up, so convincing others to share your opinion is both stupid and a waste of time! Yet, the video forum is full of it.

This post isn't directed at any single person, either... It applies to anyone and everyone.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
On a side note though, you could take that to such an extreme that you run WindowsXP with several services disabled and of course, removing the skins/themes from the system.

That's why I run Debian Linux (for the most part). Though the Windows boot code is still taking up those first 416 bytes of my master boot record. :|

What I wonder is why people prefer ATI CCC over ATI Tray Tools. Could somebody give their opinion?

 

[evolucion8]

Quite strange, CCC barely uses 7MB on my system, when I open it for the first time after boot, takes up to 10 secs, afterwards, takes only 3 seconds, interesting enough when it is open, it uses 18MB of RAM, once I close it, it goes all the way down to 2MB only! After 10 seconds, it moves up again to 7MB. I don't think that It would depend on the videocard, I got .Net 2.0 installed but don't know if it do any influence in the way the .Net behaves. There's a service called .Net Optimizations, it might.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
What Ronin isn't mentioning (or is blatantly lying about) is that he took the screenshot as soon as CCC is loading. Once loaded this is what the memory use looks like: http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/2241/cccopen8vn.jpg

Oh and VM usage is useless to look at since it's HD space. Commit charge = VM (virtual memory aka HD space) + memory usage for all processes. Actual memory use by CCC when open is what I said it was and that's the value that counts. If you want to talk about bloatware, look at firefox's memory usage yet I see it championed by everyone (including me).

Hi Joker,

you know that VM = memory to the system.. its actually emulated memory from your harddrive but to the system it is memory. Allocating 100mb of VM just for CCC is awful... the more the VM, the slower the system will run...

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Ronin
Jesus, are you stupid? I didn't include those in my calculations. Open up calc and do the math JUST for the ATI stuff (ALL the ATI stuff, not that the non CLI.exe stuff takes up much memory).

And 5150Joker, if you read my last post, I specifically referenced that.

Stop skimming posts and actually read, both of you.

VM usage ABSOLUTELY comes into play. You're still using memory, genius. Stop trying to validate your failed point by trying to deflect information in front of your face with meaningless crap.

WTF does Firefox have to do with this discussion? You've now resorted to even more deflection. Jesus, man, give up when you're wrong.

I read your post and it was pure bullshit. VM is meaningless, it's allocated to the HD. Actual memory usage is what counts and the shot you posted was taken right when CCC was actually loading up. CLI is specifically the CCC application while ATi Hot Key Poller is for OC'ing (disabled by me since I use ATi Tool). But even if you do include the latter + ATi Smart, it adds in a grand total of approximately 4 MB. Firefox was mentioned to make a point: CCC is hardly bloatware when a popular browser uses far more memory. I know you're trying hard to work for your nVidia welfare cards but FUD wont' work here. Oh and did you look at my screenshot? Memory usage is much less compared to the crap you posted.

Actually Ronin is right... VM slows down your system because your harddrive is slower than memory. If the system can't find it in "real" memory, it'll go look for VM memory, and that is where it will be slow..

I see most part of the CCC is allocated in VM, therefore most of the time when you use CCC, it will have to go look for the information in harddrive, hence, slow system performance...

I remember when 640k was enough for the whole operating system.... time surely have changed..

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
What you fail to understand is that .NET apps behave differently from normal ones. VM size and peak usage don't mean a damn thing. If you want to talk about the memory usage, then quote the memory usage numbers. And wat a few seconds after CCC opens to take the screenshot.

.Net is a platform.. it has good memory management but that simply means it recycles unused memory quicker. For memory loaded into system memory or VM, its valid(non-recyclable) memory therefore it is same as any regular app, and it is in the memory.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I guess it is an opinion. Personally, I'd rather have a lean and mean, native-coded control panel that does more with much less resource usage, like ATI Tray Tools, even if it doesn't have the '3D view'. That's the only thing it's missing as far as I know, but feel free to enlighten me if needed.

agreed.. (from a programmer's view)

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: beggerking
Actually Ronin is right... VM slows down your system because your harddrive is slower than memory. If the system can't find it in "real" memory, it'll go look for VM memory, and that is where it will be slow..

I see most part of the CCC is allocated in VM, therefore most of the time when you use CCC, it will have to go look for the information in harddrive, hence, slow system performance...

Please just stop. You clearly have no idea what virtual memory address spaces are or how they work.

An application cannot purposefully ask for VM; ALL memory is accessed out of the paging system, and the pages that can't fit into physical RAM (and/or that haven't been accessed in a while) are placed on disk to free up physical RAM.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: xtknight
I guess it is an opinion. Personally, I'd rather have a lean and mean, native-coded control panel that does more with much less resource usage, like ATI Tray Tools, even if it doesn't have the '3D view'. That's the only thing it's missing as far as I know, but feel free to enlighten me if needed.

It definately is opinion.

On a side note though, you could take that to such an extreme that you run WindowsXP with several services disabled and of course, removing the skins/themes from the system. Because after all, if you are not interested in "pretty" all those things could go... Also, you could get rid of your background picture, because that is a good waste of space, since it converts to BMP and thus isn't an efficient means to store that image... You can be as anal as you want, but once you start stating your opinion as the law, then people tend to challenge it. Besides, most people are not swayed by any speach, no matter how elegant it is written. Most people have their minds made up, so convincing others to share your opinion is both stupid and a waste of time! Yet, the video forum is full of it.

This post isn't directed at any single person, either... It applies to anyone and everyone.

I think you got system memory and 2ndary memory mixed up..
bmp images only uses 2ndary memory(hd) therefore it won't matter...
disabling skins/theme rather than removing them from hd would help reducing system memory(ram)

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: beggerking
Actually Ronin is right... VM slows down your system because your harddrive is slower than memory. If the system can't find it in "real" memory, it'll go look for VM memory, and that is where it will be slow..

I see most part of the CCC is allocated in VM, therefore most of the time when you use CCC, it will have to go look for the information in harddrive, hence, slow system performance...

Please just stop. You clearly have no idea what virtual memory address spaces are or how they work.

An application cannot purposefully ask for VM; ALL memory is accessed out of the paging system, and the pages that can't fit into physical RAM (and/or that haven't been accessed in a while) are placed on disk to free up physical RAM.

umm.. isn't that what I said? to the system, vm + memory = memory. hence, whenever you need any piece of info from vm, you need to go look into your paged file on your harddrive..

Matthias99, it looks like you are the one who don't know anything.

not ALL memory access out of the paging system.. its just unnecessary in physical memory because physical memory is fast enough to find info instantenously. paging system applys to vm to speed up fetching information out of harddrive.. it has nothing to do with physical ram.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: beggerking
umm.. isn't that what I said? to the system, vm + memory = memory. hence, whenever you need any piece of info from vm, you need to go look into your paged file on your harddrive..

Matthias99, it looks like you are the one who don't know anything.

not ALL memory access out of the paging system.. its just unnecessary in physical memory because physical memory is fast enough to find info instantenously. paging system applys to vm to speed up fetching information out of harddrive.. it has nothing to do with physical ram.

ALL memory access -- at least in any modern OS that supports paging -- is done via the paging system. Outside of the memory subsystem code, the OS sees one big memory space (usually 4GB in size with a 32-bit operating system), parts of which are paged in and out on the fly as needed if there is not enough physical memory. WinNT-based kernels can actually support more than 4GB of address space, but this is generally a big PITA and requires special application support (through PAE).

Your earlier posts were implying that, somehow, part of CCC would be stored in the swapfile (which you keep referring to as "VM") all the time. This is just not correct.

Please stop trying to blather on about things you don't really understand.