ATi vs nVidia drivers

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Also how is that ATi can deliver monthly WHQL drivers but nVidia can't even deliver monthly betas?

To use a word you are so fond of................... Rubbish

From March '08 to September '08 (7 months), Nvidia has released 8 drivers in total. 5 of which are WHQL (two of the betas became WHQL)
and 3 betas. While they do not release "monthly betas" they do release a mixture of WHQL and beta drivers. Some betas become WHQL.

How many WHQL drivers has ATI released since March? 7?

I would research this issue a bit more before your foot finds its way to your mouth again. Because as it turns out, Nvidia has released more
drivers than ATI, (two less WHQL ATI 7 vs. NV 5) (and 3 NV betas) at least in the last seven months. Again, I maintain that the driver release rate is unimportant, but you think it is, so here we are.

You coin Nvidia as being "Lazy & Arrogant". I can maybe see you using the term "arrogance" in place of "confidence". That is easy to do.
What I think Nvidia can never be called is "Lazy". But you managed to do it anyway. The rest of the technology world would disagree with you
there.

I understand you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Evident by the way you pick apart peoples posts one sentence at a time, and also noticed that you absolutely never agree with any given point, which is impossible, or better described as "improbable". Intentional and willful disagreement of every single sentence in every post just doesn't mix well when discussing things. Makes for a one sided conversation.

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Also how is that ATi can deliver monthly WHQL drivers but nVidia can't even deliver monthly betas?

To use a word you are so fond of................... Rubbish

From March '08 to September '08 (7 months), Nvidia has released 8 drivers in total. 5 of which are WHQL (two of the betas became WHQL)
and 3 betas. While they do not release "monthly betas" they do release a mixture of WHQL and beta drivers. Some betas become WHQL.

How many WHQL drivers has ATI released since March? 7?

I would research this issue a bit more before your foot finds its way to your mouth again. Because as it turns out, Nvidia has released more
drivers than ATI, (two less WHQL ATI 7 vs. NV 5) (and 3 NV betas) at least in the last seven months. Again, I maintain that the driver release rate is unimportant, but you think it is, so here we are.

You coin Nvidia as being "Lazy & Arrogant". I can maybe see you using the term "arrogance" in place of "confidence". That is easy to do.
What I think Nvidia can never be called is "Lazy". But you managed to do it anyway. The rest of the technology world would disagree with you
there.

I understand you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Evident by the way you pick apart peoples posts one sentence at a time, and also noticed that you absolutely never agree with any given point, which is impossible, or better described as "improbable". Intentional and willful disagreement of every single sentence in every post just doesn't mix well when discussing things. Makes for a one sided conversation.

Thats nice for you, but what card and version of windows are you using?

I just checked with mine (8800gts and vista64) and there are 2 WHQL drivers in the period you state (one in May and one in September).
There are 4 beta drivers, but I and a lot of others would be happier with supported drivers.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

From March '08 to September '08 (7 months), Nvidia has released 8 drivers in total.

For XP + 8800 Ultra there are seven drivers and only three are WHQL. In the meantime we've had seven WHQL drivers from ATi on XP. Are you honestly suggesting the two are equal?

If you are then your affiliated company disagrees with you. This is from nVidia?s own website (emphasis added by me):

Beta drivers are provided by NVIDIA as preview releases for quick bug fixes and access to new features. Beta drivers are under qualification testing, and may include significant issues.

It is the end user's responsibility to protect system and data when using Beta drivers with NVIDIA products. It is strongly recommended that end users back up all the data prior to using Beta drivers from this site.

Please ensure that newer Recommended/Certified drivers are not already posted on NVIDIA.com prior to installation and usage of Beta drivers. Beta drivers posted do not carry any warranties nor support services.

So the claim that betas are the same as WHQL minus the WHQL is clearly wrong.

Furthermore nVidia?s beta drivers are not supported, as stated at nVidia?s own website. ATi?s releases are supported because they?re official. See the difference?

So my 8800 Ultra had three supported drivers from Mar 08 to Sep 08 while an ATi user had seven.

Furthermore my 8800 Ultra was a recent card so users of older 7xxx/6xxx/5xxx cards can expect even less driver updates, unlike ATi who provide monthly drivers for everything as old as the R3xx chipset, on all currently supported OSes.

A 5950 Ultra + XP for example only had five drivers during said period with only two supported ones. Two supported drivers in seven months. I can?t see how anyone can be happy with that when ATi provided seven supported drivers for the same generation of chipset.

I understand you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Uh-huh. I thought you were ?done? two pages ago?

 

[BenSkywalker]

I've only once had driver issues so severe they caused massive amounts of data corruption from nVidia or ATi.

They were nVidia drivers.


They were WHQL.


The driver was on the Windows disk(a known and well documented issue- BEFORE it shipped).


I try to stay away from WHQL drivers(although I think I am running them now). Take a look at the actual process of getting drivers WHQL certified- it is ALL about a check to MS, nothing to do with quality testing by MS. WHQL tells you that certain features are functioning, that is all.

Actually it can be used to prove a lot. For my selection of games I?m less likely to run into issues on ATi than I am on nVidia; in fact I?ve historically found this since the 9700 Pro when ATi got their act together with regard to driver support.

They have kept one thing constant, they still have the DX7 ZBias bug they did when they launched they 9700Pro. All perspective based. That bug has been around FAR longer then any of the ones you mentioned for nV, and it was reported to them time and time again. Couldn't make any comment about the release schedule lately, don't really pay attention when every game works exactly as it should from the moment it's installed.

 

[apoppin]

are you talking about this?:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=3607

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Again, I maintain that the driver release rate is unimportant

You can maintain anything you'd like, but most other people would be upset to find out that Nvidia found a fix for their particular game issue but sat on it for four to six months while awaiting their next driver release while ATI users were enjoying the same fix after waiting only one month.

And before you start twisting my words around, I'm not saying this is going to be the case every single time. ATI doesn't fix every issue within one month, nor does Nvidia always wait four to six months between driver releases. But if both companies resolve the same issue at the same time, chances are MUCH greater that ATI users will have their fix delivered to end users sooner than Nvidia simply because of their more frequent release schedule. And the quicker a consumer can get their issue resolved, the happier they will be.

 

[BenSkywalker]

You can maintain anything you'd like, but most other people would be upset to find out that Nvidia found a fix for their particular game issue but sat on it for four to six months while awaiting their next driver release while ATI users were enjoying the same fix after waiting only one month.

Other side of that- what if nV has the fix out in a week, but ATi users have to wait for a month because of the schedule? That cuts both ways

Apop- Forgot about that thread- man did I hate that board(well, the drivers sucked). Been over six years now, still not fixed. Kind of puts that 22 months in perspective, doesn't it

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Other side of that- what if nV has the fix out in a week, but ATi users have to wait for a month because of the schedule? That cuts both ways

It certainly can. But odds are, Nvidia users stand a much greater chance of having to wait longer for a fix than ATI users simply based on their respective release practices. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[BenSkywalker]

It certainly can. But odds are, Nvidia users stand a much greater chance of having to wait longer for a fix than ATI users simply based on their respective release practices. Wouldn't you agree?

Not really, no. From what I have seen instead of getting one set of very robust drivers every few months, you get to swap drivers around to get the ideal one to work for the game you are playing at the time. I know for a long time ATi broke something new with each driver release for WoW(was running a 1800xt for quite a while in the main rig). Most of the time it was something minor, but I had to keep that in mind depending on what I was doing(couldn't use the driver version that didn't show flamestrike properly when raiding in TK as an example, that raid was not playable due to what would be a trivial bug for most games). Also, been six years for one of ATi's bugs, one that they have known about for six years, they still haven't fixed it. As of now it is fairly obvious it will never get fixed, monthly driver releases or not. Honestly, if everything I was going to throw at the card worked without a hitch using the drivers that the board shipped with, I highly doubt I would be updating them at all.

The fact that these companies need to release drivers anywhere near once a month(either one of them) should honestly be sickening to people, not something to boast about.

 

[solofly]

F*cking greedy nvidia is so arrogant, they think they're the only show in town and all the game developers should focus on their drivers to correct game glitches and not the other way around. How else would you explain three or four official drivers a year...

 

[solofly]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Testing their beta drivers would be self serving- they want their customers to have as good of an experience as possible (and buy more parts) and they likely save a fair amount of money not getting every driver certified.

Save money? LMFAO.

ATI is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars per quarter yet they still manage monthly WHQL drivers. If anyone needs to save money it?s them, yet they?re still committed to driver quality.

What?s nVidia?s excuse? Laziness and arrogance, that?s what. The point was made earlier about people putting up with the 8xxx series? drivers because there was no performance competition, but no more. And we clearly saw nVidia shit themselves with price drops because of it.

I had a good laugh reading that too, nvidia's saving money...

You see, keys doesn't have the experience rollo does when it comes to smoke and mirrors...

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

It certainly can. But odds are, Nvidia users stand a much greater chance of having to wait longer for a fix than ATI users simply based on their respective release practices. Wouldn't you agree?

Not really, no. From what I have seen instead of getting one set of very robust drivers every few months, you get to swap drivers around to get the ideal one to work for the game you are playing at the time. I know for a long time ATi broke something new with each driver release for WoW(was running a 1800xt for quite a while in the main rig). Most of the time it was something minor, but I had to keep that in mind depending on what I was doing(couldn't use the driver version that didn't show flamestrike properly when raiding in TK as an example, that raid was not playable due to what would be a trivial bug for most games). Also, been six years for one of ATi's bugs, one that they have known about for six years, they still haven't fixed it. As of now it is fairly obvious it will never get fixed, monthly driver releases or not. Honestly, if everything I was going to throw at the card worked without a hitch using the drivers that the board shipped with, I highly doubt I would be updating them at all.

The fact that these companies need to release drivers anywhere near once a month(either one of them) should honestly be sickening to people, not something to boast about.

So if ATI fixes something in their drivers which unknowingly breaks something else, people will submit a trouble report and that bug can (hopefully) get fixed in the next month's release.

If Nvidia fixes something in their drivers which unknowingly breaks something else, people will submit a trouble report and that bug can (hopefully) get fixed in the next 4-6 month release.


Which would you rather have?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: solofly
F*cking greedy nvidia is so arrogant, they think they're the only show in town and all the game developers should focus on their drivers to correct game glitches and not the other way around. How else would you explain three or four official drivers a year...

I'm sure you could come up with another explanation if you found it possible to quelch your hatred for them, which I find pretty freaking odd.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Wow... the Nvidia guys are actually trying to argue that getting 3-4 officially supported drivers a year, that do not follow any set schedule, is better then getting officially supported drivers once a month.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
Wow... the Nvidia guys are actually trying to argue that getting 3-4 officially supported drivers a year, that do not follow any set schedule, is better then getting officially supported drivers once a month.

I don't know if they're saying it's better but maybe they're saying that it's not any worse?

However, I disagree with the above sentiment (if that's what they're trying to say)...I think it's much better to get monthly updates than infrequent ones. My view of nVidia drivers went downhill after I bought a 8800GTS 640 on launch day (a mistake I know...I didn't wanna be a beta tester for nVidia unless they were gonna pay me to do it). That was the only card that I had many driver problems with.

I've gotta ask WHY can't nVidia release regular monthly drivers (it would be better for their customers to fix issues regularly wouldn't it?)?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: thilan29


I've gotta ask WHY can't nVidia release regular monthly drivers (it would be better for their customers to fix issues regularly wouldn't it?)?

Excuse me, but I just noted that 5 WHQL drivers were released in the last 7 months. Still not enough eh. hehe.

Nvidia has a lot more in their drivers pertaining to more than just graphics and games. I'm sure you've noticed the increase in the size of the driver downloads over the last few months?
More than doubled in size. Usually a 35MB Forceware, now becomes over 80MB. So, they might just be a bit more complex. Every new driver has CUDA based improvements as well as improvements and fixes for games. Anyone disagree?

P.S. BFG, it might be good if you could move all these driver posts into a new thread about drivers. This thread did get severely derailed over time.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29


I've gotta ask WHY can't nVidia release regular monthly drivers (it would be better for their customers to fix issues regularly wouldn't it?)?

Excuse me, but I just noted that 5 WHQL drivers were released in the last 7 months. Still not enough eh. hehe.

Not for my 8800GT (and not for everyone as has been pointed out already). From March '08 to now, there have been 3 WHQL drivers for the 8800GT for Vista 32....so no that's not enough...and I actually HAVE been burned by non-WHQL nVidia drivers so I stick to WHQL now.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29


I've gotta ask WHY can't nVidia release regular monthly drivers (it would be better for their customers to fix issues regularly wouldn't it?)?

Excuse me, but I just noted that 5 WHQL drivers were released in the last 7 months. Still not enough eh. hehe.

Not for my 8800GT (and not for everyone as has been pointed out already). From March '08 to now, there have been 3 WHQL drivers for the 8800GT for Vista 32....so no that's not enough...and I actually HAVE been burned by non-WHQL nVidia drivers so I stick to WHQL now.

Aren't the new 178's for all cards 6100 and up?

 

[GaiaHunter]

I think that anyone that is interested in drivers that are foolproof aren't exactly going to buy nvidia or amd/ati.

We all know that both nvidia or ati have screw moments.

In my opinion both Ati and Nvidia drivers are stable enough, though. Sure when I get a problem with a game I play I get pissed. Everyone does.

But Nvidia and Ati are about the same.

Sure having drivers released at a set pattern is nice. But if they don't address the problem that was bugging you, doesn't matter.

 

[BFG10K]

Discussion continued from here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2230185&enterthread=y

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29


I've gotta ask WHY can't nVidia release regular monthly drivers (it would be better for their customers to fix issues regularly wouldn't it?)?

Excuse me, but I just noted that 5 WHQL drivers were released in the last 7 months. Still not enough eh. hehe.

Not for my 8800GT (and not for everyone as has been pointed out already). From March '08 to now, there have been 3 WHQL drivers for the 8800GT for Vista 32....so no that's not enough...and I actually HAVE been burned by non-WHQL nVidia drivers so I stick to WHQL now.

Aren't the new 178's for all cards 6100 and up?

Yeah I'm including those. Here it is directly from nVidia's website:
" GeForce Release 178 WHQL 178.13 September 25, 2008
GeForce Release 175 WHQL 175.19 June 23, 2008
GeForce Release 175 WHQL 175.16 May 13, 2008"

I see 3 WHQL drivers from nVidia's archive section from March 2008 (your starting point) for Vista 32 and my 8800GT...and there's actually a 3 month gap from the 175 to 178. I'm not sure if I'm missing any but this is what I see on their website when I do a search. So again, no there hasn't been 5 releases, for my case.

 

[BenSkywalker]

So if ATI fixes something in their drivers which unknowingly breaks something else, people will submit a trouble report and that bug can (hopefully) get fixed in the next month's release.

If Nvidia fixes something in their drivers which unknowingly breaks something else, people will submit a trouble report and that bug can (hopefully) get fixed in the next 4-6 month release.


Which would you rather have?

Drivers that work? That is what I would rather have. First off, ATi only fixes what they feel like when they feel like, six years now and they still haven't fixed one bug. From my perspective one driver in five years that fixed that bug would have been a bigger deal to me then an official driver release every single minute for a decade.

For the general point you are trying to make- if I knew the new driver was going to break roughly the same amount of things it was fixing, I wouldn't care about them coming out, I would end up doing what I normally do, when I find a driver that handles all the games I'm playing the best, I don't touch the drivers for a while.

Also- Beta vs WHQL drivers- nVidia does not support either one in an official capacity and NEVER HAS. Go ahead, try reading the documentation sometime. They leave driver support to the IHV, as they always have.

 

[Spike]

I think it all comes down to consitency. I buy from both companies (currently 4870, 8800GTS 512, 7800GT, 9600GSO on the way and several generations of Radeon before that) so I don't really care what color my cards are. My main concerns are that I got a good price on them and that they perform well in the games I like. Personally I don't update my drivers all that much, usually only when I have an issue or hear that they speed up performance considerably. To that end you would think nvidia's "whenever it's ready" model would be preferrable but it's not. I like to know that if I have a problem a new driver is at most a month away. Whether or not that driver actually fixes the problem is another matter but at least I know it's coming.

I think I got turned off on nvidia's drivers after the issues with Vista and here, many months later, they still don't come out with certified drivers very often (at least not for vista 64). I guess I figure that if the beta drivers are really that good and go through all the QA that is claimed why don't they certify or support them? It's not like they don't have the few extra $ it requires to certify them. Seems like their saything something about the stability of those drivers.

On the flip side a great new certified nvidia driver may come out tomorrow that fixes all problems and even enables a super new physxcudamakemeasandwich feature on the card which none of us would say no to. The difference is in one case I know when something is coming out as opposed to a big question mark.

 

[Spike]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
...
Also- Beta vs WHQL drivers- nVidia does not support either one in an official capacity and NEVER HAS. Go ahead, try reading the documentation sometime. They leave driver support to the IHV, as they always have.

Don't you have that wrong? nVidia does not support the hardware as thats the responsibility of the people who actually made/rebranded the card. They do, however, create the drivers and therefore support the "official" ones.

Direct from their official support forums on their website:

"NVIDIA Graphics Driver was created by NVIDIA® Corporation. Please contact NVIDIA® Corporation for assistance and troubleshooting information or, to find out if a solution is available. For more information, see the NVIDIA® Corporation Web site"

While that is not in the usual legaleze it sounds like they support their drivers to me...

 

[SolMiester]

You know I work with PC's and Servers every day, so coming home to do a driver update every month just seems like a waste of my time. If I fire up my toy, I want to game, not fart around wasting 30-45 min uninstalling and re-installing drivers.