ATi vs nVidia drivers

[LOUISSSSS]

i'd always prefer to play my games at highest quality possible (i dont like to settle for less and cut corners.) i'd take the 4850 in a second due to better and continually improving drivers every month.

nvidia pumps out official drivers at the incredible rate of once every 5 months* (or more, or less, but mostly more)

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i'd always prefer to play my games at highest quality possible (i dont like to settle for less and cut corners.) i'd take the 4850 in a second due to better and continually improving drivers every month.

nvidia pumps out official drivers at the incredible rate of once every 5 months* (or more, or less, but mostly more)

There's a couple things about this:

1. NVIDIA works with devs more before launch, and doesn't need as many driver updates.

2. Part of the reason ATi has so many driver updates is they have to release profiles for new games for CF. (CF doesn't allow you to create them, so ATi has to)

3. There's a fair amount of evidence out there that many of the driver revisions aren't happening to help performance.

http://www.tweaktown.com/artic...is_xp_vista/index.html

The HD 4850 and HD 3870 didn?t see any gains for the most part; in some places performance dropped slightly, which was a bit disappointing. This month again has been about bug fixes and there is a massive list which covers new games like Spore and Grid as well as older games including World in Conflict and Oblivion.

ComputerBase over in Germany used to do some good driver reviews where you could compare 6 versions of Catalysts in several games and see proof of the "patches not performance" theory.

To be fair, I don't think most of NVIDIA's driver releases offer big performance increases, I think the point of driver releases is mostly to patch issues with games and other software.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i'd always prefer to play my games at highest quality possible (i dont like to settle for less and cut corners.) i'd take the 4850 in a second due to better and continually improving drivers every month.

nvidia pumps out official drivers at the incredible rate of once every 5 months* (or more, or less, but mostly more)

There's a couple things about this:

1. NVIDIA works with devs more before launch, and doesn't need as many driver updates.

2. Part of the reason ATi has so many driver updates is they have to release profiles for new games for CF. (CF doesn't allow you to create them, so ATi has to)

3. There's a fair amount of evidence out there that many of the driver revisions aren't happening to help performance.

http://www.tweaktown.com/artic...is_xp_vista/index.html

The HD 4850 and HD 3870 didn?t see any gains for the most part; in some places performance dropped slightly, which was a bit disappointing. This month again has been about bug fixes and there is a massive list which covers new games like Spore and Grid as well as older games including World in Conflict and Oblivion.

ComputerBase over in Germany used to do some good driver reviews where you could compare 6 versions of Catalysts in several games and see proof of the "patches not performance" theory.

To be fair, I don't think most of NVIDIA's driver releases offer big performance increases, I think the point of driver releases is mostly to patch issues with games and other software.

I always wondered why Nvidia took so long for official driver updates while AMD got them out monthly. They problem I still see is that when there is a bug with Nvida drivers then users still have to wait months for an official fix.

Nvidia drivers may have a more dramatic impact on performance, but I think you get a gradual increase with AMD... but personally I still like the idea of getting drivers with fixes and possible performance increases every month.

My prior cards were all Nvidia, back to the Ti4x00 series. My 2900 is my first ATI card since then. I like getting driver updates each month, and that's why my next card will be an AMD... unless of course you can talk Nvidia into dropping the price of the GTX280 to ~$100 for me.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Zap

Does more frequent driver updates mean better drivers, or drivers that need more work?

Just means if a game comes out and has a problem with your card, you have to wait one month versus six. Nvidia has just as many driver issues as Ati does. Some would argue more.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: bangmal
You are making it sounds like nvidia drivers are better since it is updated less frequently,

You are making it sound like ATI drivers are better since it is updated more frequently.

Six one, half dozen the other.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: Zap

You are making it sound like ATI drivers are better since it is updated more frequently.

It's true though. Which would you rather have: monthly WHQL drivers, or three to four monthly (sometimes up to six) WHQL drivers with random beta scraps thrown in for good measure whenever they feel like it?

Hmm, tough call there. :roll:

My 4850 certainly has driver issues but it has less issues than my 8000 Ultra did, plus I'm getting fixes much faster with ATi than nVidia. As an example I reported two problems with Catalyst 8.8 and in 8.9 they were fixed, only a month later.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: Zap

You are making it sound like ATI drivers are better since it is updated more frequently.

It's true though. Which would you rather have: monthly WHQL drivers, or three to four monthly (sometimes up to six) WHQL drivers with random beta scraps thrown in for good measure whenever they feel like it?

Hmm, tough call there. :roll:

My 4850 certainly has driver issues but it has less issues than my 8000 Ultra did, plus I'm getting fixes much faster with ATi than nVidia. As an example I reported two problems with Catalyst 8.8 and in 8.9 they were fixed, only a month later.

Did that include the audio over HDMI fix? Or should that be 8.10?

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Did that include the audio over HDMI fix? Or should that be 8.10?

I have no idea given it doesn't affect me.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Did that include the audio over HDMI fix? Or should that be 8.10?

I have no idea given it doesn't affect me.

Ok. That's kind of my point. Your 2 issues were addressed, but maybe many others were not. You lucked out, others remain unlucky. This applies to both companies of course. Not all issues are addressed with driver updates. Regardless of the frequency of updates.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Ok. That's kind of my point. Your 2 issues were addressed, but maybe many others were not.

Sure, but then I never reported the issue; had I reported it, it might well have been fixed.

You lucked out, others remain unlucky. This applies to both companies of course. Not all issues are addressed with driver updates. Regardless of the frequency of updates.

Right, but the frequency of updates can have an impact on how fast bugs are fixed, as I mentioned in an earlier example.

The next WHQL driver from ATi will be coming next month and this has been happening since 2002. With ATi a customer knows exactly where they stand with regards to driver support.

The next WHQL driver from nVidia is probably 3-4 months away from the last, up to six in some cases. Now I could get lucky with a beta but those drivers have no release schedule either and aren't even supported by nVidia, so an nVidia customer doesn?t know where they stand with driver updates.

The fact is this: I buy video cards primarily to play games and out of my gaming selection of 90+ titles I have less issues overall with my 4850 than I did with my 8800 Ultra, and that?s after almost two years of constant bug reports to nVidia which gives them the advantage over ATi given I?ve only just started reporting bugs to the latter.

Furthermore there are several examples of people asking me to test legacy games on my 4850 and they work fine while they fail on their nVidia DX10 hardware. Red Faction for example works perfectly while it has never worked on any nVidia DX10 part.

 

[Keysplayr]

How fast bugs are fixed, and how many bugs are fixed are two different things. I know many people have reported the HDMI audio problem in particular. That's why I mentioned it over all others.

Your Ultra died, correct? Maybe there was something wrong with it all along and you didn't realize, or couldn't have known with the data presented to you. Possible.

You should pick yourself up a nice fresh 260 like you were planning on doing. Or the 55nm version when available.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

How fast bugs are fixed, and how many bugs are fixed are two different things.

Right...but I fail to see how that's relevant to anything I've just said. I listed several concrete examples of ATi driver superiority over nVidia while your response above is vague and theoretical at best.

Your Ultra died, correct? Maybe there was something wrong with it all along and you didn't realize, or couldn't have known with the data presented to you. Possible.

There was nothing wrong with it until it died. Furthermore many of the driver problems I experienced have been replicated by others across both 8xxx and 9xxx parts.

You should pick yourself up a nice fresh 260 like you were planning on doing. Or the 55nm version when available.

I was never planning to get a GTX260 as it's too slow. My choice now is waiting for a 55 nm GTX280 or getting Zotac?s overclocked version now.

 

[PUN]

I've given up on ati driver updates. HDMI issue has been raised over and over again at the amd forum but mod and tech support continues to ignore this issue.
Catalyst 8.2 is the only one working and it degrades the video while outputing audio.
Something is not right with the hardware, otherwise they would've enabled hdmi audio with 8.3 and on.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

How fast bugs are fixed, and how many bugs are fixed are two different things.

Right...but I fail to see how that's relevant to anything I've just said. I listed several concrete examples of ATi driver superiority over nVidia while your response above is vague and theoretical at best.

Your Ultra died, correct? Maybe there was something wrong with it all along and you didn't realize, or couldn't have known with the data presented to you. Possible.

There was nothing wrong with it until it died. Furthermore many of the driver problems I experienced have been replicated by others across both 8xxx and 9xxx parts.

You should pick yourself up a nice fresh 260 like you were planning on doing. Or the 55nm version when available.

I was never planning to get a GTX260 as it's too slow. My choice now is waiting for a 55 nm GTX280 or getting Zotac?s overclocked version now.

"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make. There are issues, such as the HDMI prob, that have not received attention in 7 driver releases. (8.2 thru 8.9?).

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

How fast bugs are fixed, and how many bugs are fixed are two different things.

Right...but I fail to see how that's relevant to anything I've just said. I listed several concrete examples of ATi driver superiority over nVidia while your response above is vague and theoretical at best.

Your Ultra died, correct? Maybe there was something wrong with it all along and you didn't realize, or couldn't have known with the data presented to you. Possible.

There was nothing wrong with it until it died. Furthermore many of the driver problems I experienced have been replicated by others across both 8xxx and 9xxx parts.

You should pick yourself up a nice fresh 260 like you were planning on doing. Or the 55nm version when available.

I was never planning to get a GTX260 as it's too slow. My choice now is waiting for a 55 nm GTX280 or getting Zotac?s overclocked version now.

"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make. There are issues, such as the HDMI prob, that have not received attention in 7 driver releases. (8.2 thru 8.9?).

it may not make a better driver but it gives AMD *better opportunity* to fix them than Nvidia does with its IRREGULAR updates

personally i like AMD's *method* much better

everything is *prioritized* .. perhaps not so many people give a crap about HDMI; personally as a gamer, i don't care if they ever fix it as long as my games run good

 

[nemesismk2]

I think ATI's driver support has been excellent because I've had no problems with my 4850 at all!

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make.

BFG10K isn't saying that 'more often' equates to 'higher quality'. With ATI, you have the hope that any issues you're currently experiencing will be fixed in the next month's driver release. With Nvidia, if you have problems with their newly released driver, you know you'll have to live with it for at least the next four to six months unless they happen to release a 'Beta' driver that addresses your particular glitch.

 

[shangshang]

I'm hearing that with the latest Cat 8.9, ATI introduced a problem concerning dual-display under Vista64? While I don't run dual monitor, but the introduction of this kind of bug is horrible IMO.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make.

BFG10K isn't saying that 'more often' equates to 'higher quality'. With ATI, you have the hope that any issues you're currently experiencing will be fixed in the next month's driver release. With Nvidia, if you have problems with their newly released driver, you know you'll have to live with it for at least the next four to six months unless they happen to release a 'Beta' driver that addresses your particular glitch.

Something wrong with a beta driver that fixes a glitch? You should know, that usually, the only difference between a beta driver and a whql driver is Microsofts blessing.

RC drivers (release candidates) are a different story. The only problem you are having then, is that Nvidia's aren't labled whql. Beta drivers are available very often. Probably more often than ATI's monthly release drivers.

Beta drivers can fix an issue as well as cause other issues. Just as any WHQL driver could do exactly the same. HDMI issue is a decent example of this. It WAS working on 8.2 and prior. Now it isn't. But I'm sure there have been fixes for other things during the last 7 releases, as BFG stated. There were two for him. HDMI doesn't affect him, so he doesn't care as much. Same with Apoppin as stated.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: shangshang
I'm hearing that with the latest Cat 8.9, ATI introduced a problem concerning dual-display under Vista64? While I don't run dual monitor, but the introduction of this kind of bug is horrible IMO.

It can also be speculated that ATI drivers are rushed along to keep up with the once per month schedule? I'm not speaking fact here, just a possibility. Thinking out loud.
Who knows but them?

 

[shangshang]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: shangshang
I'm hearing that with the latest Cat 8.9, ATI introduced a problem concerning dual-display under Vista64? While I don't run dual monitor, but the introduction of this kind of bug is horrible IMO.

It can also be speculated that ATI drivers are rushed along to keep up with the once per month schedule? I'm not speaking fact here, just a possibility. Thinking out loud.
Who knows but them?

When I think of a "driver update", I look for these factors

1. first, the drivers must fix the current existing bugs!
2. second, any performance increase in any game is a plus
3. new drivers should never introduce new bugs, especially if the bugs did not exist in the previous versions and if the bugs relate to rudimentary funtion of the hardware (and I consider the proper funtioning of dual-monitor under Vista64 a rudimentary function). Lack of testing usually is the root cause of such bugs

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make. There are issues, such as the HDMI prob, that have not received attention in 7 driver releases. (8.2 thru 8.9?).

Okay, so that's seven months. Meanwhile we have issues that have been around since the G80 launch (Nov 06) still present today, so that?s 22 months and counting. We?ve also had issues like the Unreal 2 engine stuttering that lasted about 18 months and affected anyone that played Unreal 2 based games on XP on any piece of nVidia DX10 hardware.

Something wrong with a beta driver that fixes a glitch? You should know, that usually, the only difference between a beta driver and a whql driver is Microsofts blessing.

Then why doesn?t nVidia support any of their betas? And why aren?t they listing all of them on their website?

Beta drivers are available very often. Probably more often than ATI's monthly release drivers.

Hang on a minute, you were just telling us the frequency of driver updates doesn?t signify quality but now you're telling us because nVidia leaks betas quickly that's a good thing?

I mean are you seriously suggesting nVidia?s randomly leaked beta driver scheme is equal to or even superior to having regular monthly WHQL officially supported drivers?

Such a claim is ludicrous.

Beta drivers can fix an issue as well as cause other issues. Just as any WHQL driver could do exactly the same.

I don't understand why you keep arguing hypothetical scenarios.

• I told you my catalogue of 90+ games has less issues overall on my 4850 than it did on my 8800 Ultra.
  
• I also told you I get driver fixes faster with ATi than I did on nVidia despite nVidia having the advantage of me submitting driver bugs since Nov 06 while I only started two months ago with ATi.
  
• Additionally I?ve listed several examples of legacy titles running perfectly on ATi hardware but failing on nVidia DX10 hardware.

Yet you keep referring to the HDMI issue as if it?s somehow relevant to anything I?ve just pointed out. Why? Are you trying to put up a smokescreen or something?

It can also be speculated that ATI drivers are rushed along to keep up with the once per month schedule? I'm not speaking fact here, just a possibility. Thinking out loud.
Who knows but them?

Right, right, but the same can?t be said about nVidia?s leaked beta drivers which you were just saying how great they are because they potentially come out faster than ATi?s official drivers. :roll:

I mean seriously, what utter nonsense.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Okay, so that's seven months. Meanwhile we have issues that have been around since the G80 launch (Nov 06) still present today, so that?s 22 months and counting. We?ve also had issues like the Unreal 2 engine stuttering that lasted about 18 months and affected anyone that played Unreal 2 based games on XP on any piece of nVidia DX10 hardware.

I've had an nVidia DX10 card since Nov. '07, and never had a single problem with any Unreal 2-based games. What exact problem are you talking about?

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: myocardia

I've had an nVidia DX10 card since Nov. '07, and never had a single problem with any Unreal 2-based games. What exact problem are you talking about?

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84358
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=23904
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=67448

In particular the first nVidia forum thread ran for sixty pages from Dec 2006 to May 2008 and then it was locked. Then second thread was opened but we didn't see a fix until June/July 2008 when the 177.xx driver arrived.

Here's a video of the problem from Ravenshield, an Unreal 2 engine game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QotPWJQHutU

The stuttering affected almost every Unreal 2 based game on XP + 8xxx/9xxx hardware and was present from the launch of the cards (Nov 06) to around June/July 08.

To add insult to injury many Unreal 2 titles were newish at the time and were also TWIMTBP titles; meanwhile ATi?s DX10 parts had no such issue.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

"PUN's" post above is kind of like what I was getting at. Frequency of driver releases does not a better driver make. There are issues, such as the HDMI prob, that have not received attention in 7 driver releases. (8.2 thru 8.9?).

Okay, so that's seven months. Meanwhile we have issues that have been around since the G80 launch (Nov 06) still present today, so that?s 22 months and counting. We?ve also had issues like the Unreal 2 engine stuttering that lasted about 18 months and affected anyone that played Unreal 2 based games on XP on any piece of nVidia DX10 hardware.

Something wrong with a beta driver that fixes a glitch? You should know, that usually, the only difference between a beta driver and a whql driver is Microsofts blessing.

Then why doesn?t nVidia support any of their betas? And why aren?t they listing all of them on their website?

Beta drivers are available very often. Probably more often than ATI's monthly release drivers.

Hang on a minute, you were just telling us the frequency of driver updates doesn?t signify quality but now you're telling us because nVidia leaks betas quickly that's a good thing?

I mean are you seriously suggesting nVidia?s randomly leaked beta driver scheme is equal to or even superior to having regular monthly WHQL officially supported drivers?

Such a claim is ludicrous.

Beta drivers can fix an issue as well as cause other issues. Just as any WHQL driver could do exactly the same.

I don't understand why you keep arguing hypothetical scenarios.

• I told you my catalogue of 90+ games has less issues overall on my 4850 than it did on my 8800 Ultra.
  
• I also told you I get driver fixes faster with ATi than I did on nVidia despite nVidia having the advantage of me submitting driver bugs since Nov 06 while I only started two months ago with ATi.
  
• Additionally I?ve listed several examples of legacy titles running perfectly on ATi hardware but failing on nVidia DX10 hardware.

Yet you keep referring to the HDMI issue as if it?s somehow relevant to anything I?ve just pointed out. Why? Are you trying to put up a smokescreen or something?

It can also be speculated that ATI drivers are rushed along to keep up with the once per month schedule? I'm not speaking fact here, just a possibility. Thinking out loud.
Who knows but them?

Right, right, but the same can?t be said about nVidia?s leaked beta drivers which you were just saying how great they are because they potentially come out faster than ATi?s official drivers. :roll:

I mean seriously, what utter nonsense.

As per usual, you go way too far in interpreting anothers posts. Just go back and look how many words you placed on my fingertips.

What I could say, is that what is good, or bad, for one must be good or bad for the other. There is no in betweens or exceptions. Both sides have their problems and their successes when it comes to drivers. You ask ridiculous questions based on how you decide to interpret every single line of every post.

"I mean are you seriously suggesting nVidia?s randomly leaked beta driver scheme is equal to or even superior to having regular monthly WHQL officially supported drivers?

Such a claim is ludicrous."

Give me a break will ya.

"Hang on a minute, you were just telling us the frequency of driver updates doesn?t signify quality but now you're telling us because nVidia leaks betas quickly that's a good thing?"

I'm saying what is good/bad for one must be good/bad for the other. I'm just giving you a proper way of looking at things instead of this diatribe of how a monthly driver release is the cats meow, when it clearly is not (unless you happen to have a problem fixed by a given release which would likely make you think kindly on them).

"
I also told you I get driver fixes faster with ATi than I did on nVidia despite nVidia having the advantage of me submitting driver bugs since Nov 06 while I only started two months ago with ATi."

This is most interesting. Why only two months ago with ATI? Is this the first ATI card you have owned?

"Right, right, but the same can?t be said about nVidia?s leaked beta drivers which you were just saying how great they are because they potentially come out faster than ATi?s official drivers."

Did I say that? I don't see it anywhere up there. YOU actually did by implying that more frequently released drivers were somehow better. Not me.

Anyway, the reality is that arguing over something like this is quite useless.

The last I will say in this matter is that it doesn't matter how frequently or infrequently drivers are released from either company. Because there are always more issues to be addressed. No driver has EVER fixed every issue and never will. And will sometimes even introduce NEW issues and we can all rejoice that we have something new to complain about.

You'll have to continue this argument on your own. I've made my points and can live with that. Else we would go on for 40 pages.

Cheers.