Ati talks smack about Nvidia's 512mb gtx

[route66]

Originally posted by: GOREGRINDER
is cheap stuff compared to where some of us are sitting,.period..is that debatable?

First, where do you draw the line between what is cheap? $100, $200, $300?

Second, an informed shopper will research a product before he buys it. He *should* know plenty about his options.

Third, there are people who are enthusiasts who know everything regardless of firsthand experience. Does your car mechanic own every car that he works on? Does he own the exact same car that you do? If he doesn't then how do you trust him to work on your car, he doesn't have firsthand experience with it.

tryin to act like x800's and x850's give you first hand experience with this gen is kid stuff

First, you don't know what I own.

Second, since the last 3 generations of both ATI and nVidia have been basically rehashes what difference does it make?

Third, see above.

,... 2x7800gtx's is faster than anything anyone can put together from ati in any way shape and form

It's not 2x7800 512GTX, so what he has is cheap. Of course, I am being sarcastic - but I am trying to prove a point: where do you put the line between cheap and not-cheap? How can someone in a thread about 512GTX make comments if he doesn't have a 512GTX?

of course not instead throwing personal attacks and twisting his words and selective seeing what hes saying and turn around and bash him instead of answering his very straight to the point question,.. is that fair either?..no,..it certainly isnt and im tired of seeing it

Please show where I have personally attacked Rollo, or you for that matter.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Whats the argument going in this thread?

Its something to do with prices/performance etc.

Well lets see the bang for buck cards at different price points.
$100ish 6600GT
$150ish X800GTO
$200~250ish 6800GS/X800GTO2
$300ish 7800GT
$350~400ish X1800XL (400-2x6800GS)
$450~500ish 7800GTX
$600ish 7800GT SLi/X1800XT

From this I reckon 2x7800GT Sli is the best bang for buck. Performance is faster than a X1800XT/7800GTX 512mb, it has all the features you need, you can enjoy Sli experience, low noise, low power consumption, single slot. However this is for people who buy high ends and at the same time look for the best deal there is.

 

[CaiNaM]

i'm kinda lost in this thread... i thought it was about ati's asinine attempt to spin themselves out of second place with FUD, out of context statments, and general all around mud slinging?

yet what i'm getting from this is that sli sucks, last gen's gto is faster than the 7800, and my 6800gt sucks even tho i can play every single game available with no performance issues (albeit not at the highest resolutions)? and dang, yea, i had first hand experience with both cards last gen and spent alot of time with them before choosing nv40 for a variety of reasons, so according to the line of thinking of some of the posters in this thread, i guess i'm a clueless nv fanboy (still have 4 other pc's in my house with ati products tho)?

seems ati loyalists are simply following in ati pr's footsteps if you ask me.. how about we get back on topic, or just start another nv sux ati rulez thread (and at least be up front about it)?

tho i'd agree that while sli may get you the best avail performance at this time, it does so at the worst value of any video solution available (as will x-fire if it ever really makes it out...

still, the bottom line is ati is behind (performance, dt market, consumer and maybe even stockholder confidence) this gen, and is once again trying to "market" it's way out of it with PR smoke and mirrors. imo it ain't going to happen -- nothing short of a successful r580 launch will get their a$$ out of the back of the bus...

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
i'm kinda lost in this thread... i thought it was about ati's asinine attempt to spin themselves out of second place with FUD, out of context statments, and general all around mud slinging?

yet what i'm getting from this is that sli sucks, last gen's gto is faster than the 7800, and my 6800gt sucks even tho i can play every single game available with no performance issues (albeit not at the highest resolutions)? and dang, yea, i had first hand experience with both cards last gen and spent alot of time with them before choosing nv40 for a variety of reasons, so according to the line of thinking of some of the posters in this thread, i guess i'm a clueless nv fanboy (still have 4 other pc's in my house with ati products tho)?

seems ati loyalists are simply following in ati pr's footsteps if you ask me.. how about we get back on topic, or just start another nv sux ati rulez thread (and at least be up front about it)?

tho i'd agree that while sli may get you the best avail performance at this time, it does so at the worst value of any video solution available (as will x-fire if it ever really makes it out...

still, the bottom line is ati is behind (performance, dt market, consumer and maybe even stockholder confidence) this gen, and is once again trying to "market" it's way out of it with PR smoke and mirrors. imo it ain't going to happen -- nothing short of a successful r580 launch will get their a$$ out of the back of the bus...

The only Sli bang for buck is 6800GS, 7800GT, and maybe the upcoming 7800GS SLi.

But then again, im really confused what this thread is about.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
But then again, im really confused what this thread is about.

i will say tho that if a 256mb x1800xt showed up similarly priced to a 256mb gtx, I could see myself going that route.. but the problem is all the talk about r580 around the corner would hold me up (as i imagine it would others as well).. but wait.. that's still not what this thread is about, is it?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
But then again, im really confused what this thread is about.

i will say tho that if a 256mb x1800xt showed up similarly priced to a 256mb gtx, I could see myself going that route.. but the problem is all the talk about r580 around the corner would hold me up (as i imagine it would others as well).. but wait.. that's still not what this thread is about, is it?

:laugh:

 

[v8envy]

But since you do not own an 1800XT/XL, likewise you can't make arguments AGAINST it. It goes both ways, buddy. That's like someone who owns a Porche saying that BMWs suck! He can't say that!

Oh yes he can, and he did. The most valid way possible -- with his wallet.

It's a very good point. The NV fans all *have* GT, GTX, GTX512s and various SLI setups. The ATI guys have R9700s. Clearly ATI's current product is nowhere near as compelling as the current NVidia product.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: v8envy

But since you do not own an 1800XT/XL, likewise you can't make arguments AGAINST it. It goes both ways, buddy. That's like someone who owns a Porche saying that BMWs suck! He can't say that!

Oh yes he can, and he did. The most valid way possible -- with his wallet.

It's a very good point. The NV fans all *have* GT, GTX, GTX512s and various SLI setups. The ATI guys have R9700s. Clearly ATI's current product is nowhere near as compelling as the current NVidia product.

LOL and QFT

 

[v8envy]

By that definition, a 7800gt would also be cheap stuff, because it performs similarly only it cost 2x as much as a gto. But everyone and their grandma are recommending the 7800gt as the best bang for the buck - that's laughable.

How is this possible? Look at http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=321&card2=313

The GTO has 4800 MPixel/sec fill rate vs. 6400 MPixel/sec fill rate for the 7800GT, and pulls 4500 3dmark05s vs 6556 3dmark05s vs the 7800GT. How is a nearly 50 % capability deficit work out to 'similar' performance?

Now, if you're comparing an unlocked, overclocked aftermarket cooler equiped GTO^2 or Connect3d GTO to a factory reference 7800, that's a different story completely. An 850 XTPE is definitely in the same ballpark as a 7800GT, and if bought as such, priced accordingly.

I can (very) briefly get 500 horsepower out of my car with a big enough N2O bottle and some monstrously sized fuel injectors, but that doesn't suddenly make it competitive with a new vette.

 

[koolaidparty]

ATI has had trouble producing quality products in the last couple years. They do compete with Nvidia, otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to come out with 500 cards in 3 years.

I'll probably end up buying from Nvidia too.

 

[eclavatar]

Nvidia is basically selling people overclocked videocards.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: v8envy

By that definition, a 7800gt would also be cheap stuff, because it performs similarly only it cost 2x as much as a gto. But everyone and their grandma are recommending the 7800gt as the best bang for the buck - that's laughable.

How is this possible? Look at http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=321&card2=313

The GTO has 4800 MPixel/sec fill rate vs. 6400 MPixel/sec fill rate for the 7800GT, and pulls 4500 3dmark05s vs 6556 3dmark05s vs the 7800GT. How is a nearly 50 % capability deficit work out to 'similar' performance?

Now, if you're comparing an unlocked, overclocked aftermarket cooler equiped GTO^2 or Connect3d GTO to a factory reference 7800, that's a different story completely. An 850 XTPE is definitely in the same ballpark as a 7800GT, and if bought as such, priced accordingly.

I can (very) briefly get 500 horsepower out of my car with a big enough N2O bottle and some monstrously sized fuel injectors, but that doesn't suddenly make it competitive with a new vette.

Of course I'm talking about an unlocked GTO. It has all the 16 pipes in there, and a GPU that's quite capable of reaching 520mhz and higher on stock cooling and voltage, all it needs is a bios flash. The NOS analogy is more appropriate for those who do a suicide overclock of the x1800xt to 1 ghz. This is more like the case of a car that's capable of going 200 mph but the manufacturer electronically limited it to 120 mph.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: eclavatar
Nvidia is basically selling people overclocked videocards.

Errrr, as nVidia is the company making the chips, and their OEMs making the boards, I don't see how they can be OCd?

 

[GOREGRINDER]

the cheap card thing,...if anyone can put themselves in another persons place,..and lets say you spent 880 on gpu power(and i think thats a good price ),...regardles if you say "i would never do that ,..or i would never be able to do that",...put that thinking aside,.seriously,.put that line of thinking away for a few seconds..lets say you could,..and you did,...whats a cheap card to you?,..lol,...most people are prolly saying,...."pretty much anything?",...well i think,..anything out of the current gen's high end,...and as for the 7800gt,yeah some models are showing up for 299.00..well SLi'd its a monster for 600 and noticeably faster than a single 7800gtx,..rightfully at the price point the gpu power ended up at


and yes the 7800gtx 256mb was brought in from the very first post,..when ati compared the x1800xt to the 256 7800gtx in the slide,..(with thier pathetic choice of driver for the 7800gtx i may add),the same slide bashing the 512 gtx..and since 2x256mb 7800gtx is faster than a single 512mb 7800gtx,...i feel its relevant,..and why isnt it? its 200 dollars more than msrp of the 512mb 7800gtx ,..its a rightous step up and scaled approprietly,..and when crossfire gets into the "norm" as well,...im sure it will be the same thing,...scaled approprietly and dual cards will be the norm,..they are so much the norm with nvidia users that its honestly,..no different of a thought than a single card,...and like i said,..when crossfire becomes the "norm" for ATI during its second generation,.. expect that as well for ATI users

(btw im not quoteing anyone ,..picking phrases when people are saying this much is complete 'tardation)

and as far as rollo goes,.. if you dont think some of you guys puttin crap in your sigs mocking him from past posts and taking sections of the point hes trying to make and disect his statements to make personal low blows toward him,...then you dont give a crap,..and thats fine,nobody's asking anyone to...but dont expect him to give anyone anything less than what some of you do to him,..and i dont think thats right ,and alot of times when someone is making a point,.....sometimes you gotta look past the words typed to see it,..and as far as how long ive been here,...what? the longer someones here they are automatically suppose to start bashing rollo?...lol,...i missed that i guess somewhere,..alls i can tell you is,...when i came here(i also have been on alot of other forums,.have for many years,from Abit forums,dfi street,guru3d,rage3d,nvidia forums, the worst is the painkiller forums,..my god pathetic in ways you couldnt imagine,..no im serious its bad..lol,.but yeah alot ),,i would see rollo crack a joke and the whole thread jumps his ass,..now,..i thought it was funny what he said,..it was harmless humor,..everyone was just way too uptight and way too serious,...and im more of an "enjoy life or stfu and let me enjoy it" type of person,..so i almost tacked it up as people here are assholes and left,.....but the more i was here i started to see other people that knew how to joke around and take a joke and laugh,..so i came back more since ive been on vacation

and route66 not all that was directed towards you,..very little actually was(i think just the part about the "cheap cards bit"),.i know i used your quote,and that was intended only for the first part of my post,..but no you havnt attacked me personally,..and i just wanted to make that clear,...about the car bit yeah if he has worked on a specific car or owns it then im prolly gonna give him a listen and not patronize and start argueing with him about his Lamborghini Diablo VS when i have nothing but a tricked out civic,and like i said that was a generalization of what popped up a few times about 7800gtx's from people obviously hangin off ATI's left nipple(or was it the right one i forget,..lol),..i wasnt intending to target it all towards you route66,..so if you took it that way i apologize,..not intentional ,..damn that would have been too long of a post to throw at just one person,..lol,...speaking of long posts,..theres my 99 cents

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Whats the argument going in this thread?

Its something to do with prices/performance etc.

Well lets see the bang for buck cards at different price points.
$100ish 6600GT
$150ish X800GTO
$200~250ish 6800GS/X800GTO2
$300ish 7800GT
$350~400ish X1800XL (400-2x6800GS)
$450~500ish 7800GTX
$600ish 7800GT SLi/X1800XT

From this I reckon 2x7800GT Sli is the best bang for buck. Performance is faster than a X1800XT/7800GTX 512mb, it has all the features you need, you can enjoy Sli experience, low noise, low power consumption, single slot. However this is for people who buy high ends and at the same time look for the best deal there is.

You're crazy putting XL in there. The GT owns from 275-$400. Why would you pay more for less? and if you only have $200? I encourage you to stop by a ready labor center for the xtra $75 as well - it's that good. And you're $600ish range a XT with Sli GT's??!?! Sorry to say but you're clueless. Two GT's will absolutly destroy an XT..again why pay more for much less?

ATI - as usual has nothing to compete over $200. (from a price/performance standpoint)

Edit I own the $150 GTO^2 to XTPE - now that was an alright deal ATI gave us.

XL's should cost $250
XT's should cost $300

If they seriously want to attract sales and be in line with price/performance to thier competitors offerings..

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Zebo
XL's should cost $250
XT's should cost $300

If they seriously want to attract sales and be in line with price/performance to thier competitors offerings..

This doesnt make any sense. You claim the XT should be $300? The GTX has a MSRP of $600, and hits the street about $450. The XT is faster, and has more advanced features, yet you want it to cost $150 less street price? Yeah... I see the logic in that.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Whats the argument going in this thread?

Its something to do with prices/performance etc.

Well lets see the bang for buck cards at different price points.
$100ish 6600GT
$150ish X800GTO
$200~250ish 6800GS/X800GTO2
$300ish 7800GT
$350~400ish X1800XL (400-2x6800GS)
$450~500ish 7800GTX
$600ish 7800GT SLi/X1800XT

From this I reckon 2x7800GT Sli is the best bang for buck. Performance is faster than a X1800XT/7800GTX 512mb, it has all the features you need, you can enjoy Sli experience, low noise, low power consumption, single slot. However this is for people who buy high ends and at the same time look for the best deal there is.

You're crazy putting XL in there. The GT owns from 275-$400. Why would you pay more for less? and if you only have $200? I encourage you to stop by a ready labor center for the xtra $75 as well - it's that good. And you're $600ish range a XT with Sli GT's??!?! Sorry to say but you're clueless. Two GT's will absolutly destroy an XT..again why pay more for much less?

ATI - as usual has nothing to compete over $200. (from a price/performance standpoint)

Edit I own the $150 GTO^2 to XTPE - now that was an alright deal ATI gave us.

Clueless?
I think you misunderstood me. (and fixed)
If a buyer was willing to spend
$100ish grab a 6600GT
$150ish grab a X800GTO
$200~250ish grab a 6800GS/X800GTO2
$300ish grab a 7800GT
$350~400ish grab a X1800XL (for its features and similar performance compared to the GT) or 7800GT(save 50~100 dollars) or 2x6800GS
$450~500ish grab a 7800GTX
$600ish 7800GT grab a SLi (I dont know about the X1800XT because at high settings hence AA/AF it takes less of a hit than tha 7 series. And im talking about HQ mode, using TSAA/AAA not just your generic 4xAA 16xAF.)

A 6800GS is fast as a X800XL while costing less and comes with more features (just an icying on the cake). Its also Sliable which is another feature the buyer can consider.

The X850XT may perform close to the 7800GT, the 7800GT has the features, and is fast overall through many games including d3d.

Anymore suggestions?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Zebo
XL's should cost $250
XT's should cost $300

If they seriously want to attract sales and be in line with price/performance to thier competitors offerings..

This doesnt make any sense. You claim the XT should be $300? The GTX has a MSRP of $600, and hits the street about $450. The XT is faster, and has more advanced features, yet you want it to cost $150 less street price? Yeah... I see the logic in that.

Well considering I can get two GT's for $550 which will out perform it by 50% you tell me what it should cost? I work on price/performance ratios. It sucks almost as much power as two GT's as well and takes up two slots like two GTs so don;t go there. It even get's beat in one of my favorite games CoR by a single GT. I got my XFX for $469 but have seen it as low as $420 with 490 core warranties default which will beat XT as well, so less than $420 definity. Then I'd have to whore out my box to .net framework and ATI's crappy drivers.. Maybe $300 is high but many would buy one at that price.

 

[GOREGRINDER]

Then I'd have to whore out my box to .net framework and ATI's crappy drivers.. Maybe $300 is high but many would buy one at that price.

i think 300 is quite good for a video card of that calibur

btw: LOL@"whore out my box"

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Zebo
XL's should cost $250
XT's should cost $300

If they seriously want to attract sales and be in line with price/performance to thier competitors offerings..

This doesnt make any sense. You claim the XT should be $300? The GTX has a MSRP of $600, and hits the street about $450. The XT is faster, and has more advanced features, yet you want it to cost $150 less street price? Yeah... I see the logic in that.

Well considering I can get two GT's for $550 which will out perform it by 50% you tell me what it should cost? I work on price/performance ratios. It sucks almost as much power as two GT's as well and takes up two slots like two GTs so don;t go there. It even get's beat in one of my favorite games CoR by a single GT. I got my XFX for $469 but have seen it as low as $420 with 490 core warranties default which will beat XT as well, so less than $420 definity. Then I'd have to whore out my box to .net framework and ATI's crappy drivers.. Maybe $300 is high but many would buy one at that price.

Wow, you dont sound bias at all!! ATi's drivers are not crappy. I have seen the XT for $490 shipped, which isnt much more than your alleged price of $420.

Since you say 2x7800GT's cost $550, and beat a XT, they would beat a GTX even more. Why are you not telling that side of ths story? Oops.. your bias is sticking out.

 

[GOREGRINDER]

Wow, you dont sound bias at all!! ATi's drivers are not crappy. I have seen the XT for $490 shipped, which isnt much more than your alleged price of $420.

Since you say 2x7800GT's cost $550, and beat a XT, they would beat a GTX even more. Why are you not telling that side of ths story? Oops.. your bias is sticking out.

490? ..where?

and thats in no way bias,..the actual retail price of a x1800xt is 599 boxed retail,less are oem,...and 2 7800gts do cream a GTX and an XT,..duh,...isnt that a given? someone isnt bias because they didnt point out the obvious to you

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Zebo
XL's should cost $250
XT's should cost $300

If they seriously want to attract sales and be in line with price/performance to thier competitors offerings..

This doesnt make any sense. You claim the XT should be $300? The GTX has a MSRP of $600, and hits the street about $450. The XT is faster, and has more advanced features, yet you want it to cost $150 less street price? Yeah... I see the logic in that.

Well considering I can get two GT's for $550 which will out perform it by 50% you tell me what it should cost? I work on price/performance ratios. It sucks almost as much power as two GT's as well and takes up two slots like two GTs so don;t go there. It even get's beat in one of my favorite games CoR by a single GT. I got my XFX for $469 but have seen it as low as $420 with 490 core warranties default which will beat XT as well, so less than $420 definity. Then I'd have to whore out my box to .net framework and ATI's crappy drivers.. Maybe $300 is high but many would buy one at that price.

Wow, you dont sound bias at all!! ATi's drivers are not crappy. I have seen the XT for $490 shipped, which isnt much more than your alleged price of $420.

Since you say 2x7800GT's cost $550, and beat a XT, they would beat a GTX even more. Why are you not telling that side of ths story? Oops.. your bias is sticking out.

Ackmed, you might wanna tone down the Christmas spirit this morning. You're getting me all teary eyed with your niceness. Seriously though, chill.

 

[Ackmed]

I am chilled. Nothing on this board upsets me, even though some try. Not that what you tell me to do matters.. What I did was point out serious flaws in his logic. Saying the XT should be $300 is just nonesense, and you know it.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I am chilled. Nothing on this board upsets me, even though some try. Not that what you tell me to do matters.. What I did was point out serious flaws in his logic. Saying the XT should be $300 is just nonesense, and you know it.

Ackmed, others are entitled to their opinions of what a 16 pipe, loud X1800XT is worth, you don't set the price.

Zebo doesn't have to list every card in the world a 7800GT SLI beats, I notice he didn't tell us it beats the Voodoo 5 either? Go figure!

Zebo is also entitled to his opinion of ATIs drivers, perhaps he has had unfortunate experiences with them that you have not?

I'm with Keys on this one- you should get the Christmas spirit and allow others their opinions, and stop trying to convince the world the X1800XT is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel. (Especially when you don't even like them enough to buy one yourself and are using a 7800GTX! You should SLI that bad boy and see what gaming CAN be!)

 

[g3pro]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I am chilled. Nothing on this board upsets me, even though some try. Not that what you tell me to do matters.. What I did was point out serious flaws in his logic. Saying the XT should be $300 is just nonesense, and you know it.

It has fewer pipes, runs hotter, uses more power at idle, inferior drivers, designed by ATi, overpriced.

There's no reason why it should be priced above $200.