ATI once again beat by Nvidia.. now two generations behind!

[nts]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I take Dave with a grain of salt. There is good info with the bad on his site, if he had no bias he'd be a stellar reviewer.

I'm sorry for my blindness but can you please point out the bias in Dave's reviews?

He doesn't do direct comparisons, he just reviews the hardware. In his conclusion for the 7800 he didn't tell you to go buy an X1800...

Oh and I'm still waiting for the link to the reviewer quitting B3D stating it was biased?

 

[Pete]

Yeah, curious to find bias when he never compares ATI to NV products, but only compares to previous generations from the same IHV. You'd have to go out of your way to flip b/w two separate articles at B3D to compare ATI to NV directly.

Edit: I do get the sense that he participates in ATI threads a lot more, and perhaps defensively sometimes, but that may be just b/c he has better contacts and thus more info to dispel misinformation.

It *is* genuinely curious to see the XT draw less power and make less noise than the GTXs. Maybe the change in MBs had something to do with the higher power draw? The noise tests on the nF4 may be useless b/c of the NB fan, whereas his ATI MB is passively cooled. Anyway, I'm not sure Dave pays too much attn to that aspect of his reviews, nor do I believe he has as accurate a test chamber as SPCR when it comes to noise. The real meat of his reviews is the detailed explanations of both the tech and his benchmark results.

BTW, Rev quitting over ATI bias is news to me, and I hang out there a lot.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Pete
Yeah, curious to find bias when he never compares ATI to NV products, but only compares to previous generations from the same IHV. You'd have to go out of your way to flip b/w two separate articles at B3D to compare ATI to NV directly.

It *is* genuinely curious to see the XT draw less power and make less noise than the GTXs. Maybe the change in MBs had something to do with that? Anyway, I'm not sure Dave pays too much attn to that aspect of his reviews, nor do I believe he has as accurate a test chamber as SPCR when it comes to noise. The real meat of his reviews is the detailed explanations of both the tech and his benchmark results.

BTW, Rev quitting over ATI bias is news to me, and I hang out there a lot.

Is he back on there now? He quit at the end of March. He and Dave were both even posting here that there were issues they could not discuss, and had no ill will toward each other?

 

[BFG10K]

I find it ironic that Rollo is running around and accusing someone of having a bias.

 

[lopri]

I don't see Rollo accusing him of his bias. If anything, he seems to be biased *for* Dave Baumen thanks to his personal experience in the past. Anyone with/without bias can tell that Dave Baumen is biased towards ATI, but you need to read between the lines. I.E. the settings he uses for benches (VIA chipset instead of NF4 in 2005?), the adjectives he chooses, the way he organizes article contents, etc. But it can be quite blatant from forum thread where he usually *defends* ATI and drags down NV.

For example,

Its interesting to note that the chip is marked as "7800-U-A2" giving an indication to this being a chip speed binned as an "Ultra" part, although NVIDIA ultimately shied away from the name due to the availability stigma attached to it.

Above is an exceprt from his GTX 512 review.

And this is from his X1800 review.

Once the issue was actually traced, after nearly 6 months of attacking numerous points where they felt the problems could have occurred, it took them less than an hour to resolve in the design, requiring only a contact and metal change, and once back from the fab with the fix in place stable, yield-able clockspeeds jumped in the order of 160MHz.

While what he says *might* be true, (I'm not sure about that, honestly) but one can get VERY different impressions about the product/company in question.

lop

 

[Nirach]

Question.

What's the point in 'debating' (It's more like a childish argument) which card is better? The figures for stock clock/mem speeds should speak for themselves, people have personal preferences, and that's the end of that, surely.

Example: You won't catch me touching nVidia cards, even with a barge pole, but I'm not about to go and say "OMGBUYATINVIDIASUCK". Which, by the way, is what a lot of this boils down to (reverse the names for each individual preference).

Everyone's being hung up on Rollo being an nVidia fan. Who cares what he puts in his case, it's not like him having a preference and being opinionated and quite willing to take every opertunaty to take a crack at ATI is going to stop people buying ATI, is it? Imagine that, though. "Oh, damn man, you can't buy that card, Rollo said it's bad!"

Can anyone imagine the response? "Sod off, I want it, I'm buying it" springs to mind.

A large number of people accuse Rollo of flame-baiting, but a large number of the acusors are no better, they're targeting it towards Rollo himself. Okay, some do it all in good humour, and Rollo seems to be able to recognise that (sometimes). but why should he have to?

Also. I laugh at the OP, who seems to have just.. Disappeared from the forums when his argument got shot to bits.

Another point: Noise level of the cards stock cooler is easily evaded by buying a cooler that doesn't make so much noise, if you're that concerned about it. If you think you shouldn't have to, start being prepared to pay another $100+ for the card to come with a really good quiet cooler.

My pc is hardly loud, but when I crank the fan speeds up it gets a bit noisy. But guess what. I'm playing games. And they're louder than the pc.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: southpawuni

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: nts

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: mlmcasual
Two generation, I'll clarify. im only counting what is available on the market. not available in "bigfoot sighting" quantities..

X1800XT sightings?

X1800XT sightings?

Personally I think the second one is the XT- it clearly needs more cooling?

I was wondering when you were gonna show up and start trolling...

So you thought you'd join me at it and say it's justified because 'It's for ATI!"?

The X1800XT is currently available (unfortunate for you),

More like unfortunately for the poor guys who buy it and have to listen to that awful dustbuster as they game!

the GTX-512 sold out its limited amount of cards and doesn't look like they'll get more anytime soon (I think I heard a week to 2 weeks before new ones are coming in).

Hmmm. Available 3 days before launch and sold out 4 days after launch due to huge demand. Compared to available a month after paper launch. I see your point! (not)

Haha PWNED!
Excellent post Rollo.

You got some brown stuff on your nose, you need a kleenex?

 

[sxr7171]

Anyhow getting back to topic, there's no doubt ATI is behind this generation. If we have to quantify by generations, I'd say by not more than half a generation. While you guys talk about 7800GTXs and 1800XTs, nVidia is making a killing with the $299 7800GT. That card alone is what defines nVidia's victory this generation. I upgraded from a $220 6600GT I bought in February to a $299 7800GT this October and this $80 upgrade has catapulted my system's performance more than any $80 upgrade ever has. The card is a beast for the price and it erases completely the insanity of the previous generation with crappy overpriced cards.

 

[Alexstarfire]

Originally posted by: SPARTAN VI
Odd how they're falling behind, but this isn't reflected in the stock market. Wasn't it last week ATI took the majority stock over nvidia? Something like 52% don't remember.

I don't know what those crazy canucks are doing. If they intentionally release their high-end cards in limited quantities they need a lesson in competition.

And no, I'm not an nvidia head. I previously owned a 9800pro and X800XL. Both were great cards.

Haven't bothered reading the other posts yet, but I just had to respond to this one. People should know that the stock market doesn't reflect the quality of a products, or even products, or even the quality of the company. All a stock market shows is how many people are interested in the company and how well it may be doing financially.

ATI has always had production problems, whether or not they were noticable before the Xxxx series I couldn't say, may not even have existed before the Xxxx series. nVidia hasn't had production problems at all as far as I know. What good is a product if no one can get it. That's like making a patent for an anti-gravity machine, which has acually been done, even though it doesn't exist.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

Originally posted by: mlmcasual
Two generation, I'll clarify. im only counting what is available on the market. not available in "bigfoot sighting" quantities.. so yes.. just like the 850pe when it was "launched".. so to the trend is here in the 1800xt.. you cant count the 1800xt.. so must refer to xl.. which the TRUE Ati available product.. .. 7800 gtx beats the xl hands down.. the 7800gt512 beats the 256gtx hands down and is a generation (albeit incrmental) above the gtx.. Hence, yes we are talking two generations differnce between companies.. the gap that is..

Im looking at this from a realist perspective and the facts of the here and now..

um ok..

x800xtpe to x850xtpe, 7800gtx - 7800gtx512 are not new generations, they are product refreshes.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: AznAnarchy99

Originally posted by: mlmcasual
Two generation, I'll clarify. im only counting what is available on the market. not available in "bigfoot sighting" quantities.. so yes.. just like the 850pe when it was "launched".. so to the trend is here in the 1800xt.. you cant count the 1800xt.. so must refer to xl.. which the TRUE Ati available product.. .. 7800 gtx beats the xl hands down.. the 7800gt512 beats the 256gtx hands down and is a generation (albeit incrmental) above the gtx.. Hence, yes we are talking two generations differnce between companies.. the gap that is..

Im looking at this from a realist perspective and the facts of the here and now..

um ok..

x800xtpe to x850xtpe, 7800gtx - 7800gtx512 are not new generations, they are product refreshes.

The 512mb is a MUCH larger performance increase/refresh than the X800 to X850 was. In fact i would venture to say that the 7800 -> 7800 512 is the largest increase within a generation (refresh).

-Kevin

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
what about Rollos comments quote about the 5800U i posted? double standard or no?

LOL

No "double standard", no "hypocrisy".

I've never cared as much about noise as a lot of people on this board do, but I also have a memory.

What do I remember? ATI fans attacking nVidia cooling solutions for being bigger and noisier than ATI solutions on the 5800U, 5900U, and 6800U.

So do you think I'm going to let it slide that ATIs best card has basically been called the second coming of the dustbuster by some sites, and is pretty much agreed on louder than the GTXs?

Nah. I think any post I make about the X1800XT is going to bring up that fan whine, because:
A. A lot of people really do care about it
B. If I had a $1 for every time an ATI fan posted to me about fan size, I'd be rich.

So, you reap what you sow.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Every review site with the exception of B3D said the X1800XT was louder. Whether or not they said it whined may have been an overspeculation on my part after reading a few that said it. Including the wrrrrr comment. However, none of this justifies your cherry picking comments. How about commenting on that? While we wait for Mr. Kubicki.

I cherry picked those comments (in same cases conclusions) because they were irrelevant to my argument with you (& Rollo).

And I'm still waiting for those countless (non-existant) reviews that mention this whine. :laugh: You not providing them is quite telling, isnt it?

<edit>

Going off now. Enjoy your weekend guys, dont waste it here. See you in this topic on Monday.

Could be, like me, he's decided you aren't worth replying to for the most part?

 

[dug777]

ATI's pretty goddamn good if their x1800XT is faster than a 256mb GTX & their x1800xl is competetive with a 7800GT, all the while being two generations behind :Q

 

[nts]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Could be, like me, he's decided you aren't worth replying to for the most part?

More like you just making fud up again.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that the reviewer at B3D left and said it was because of ATi bias because he has done anything but leave...

...
What do I remember? ATI fans attacking nVidia cooling solutions for being bigger and noisier than ATI solutions on the 5800U, 5900U, and 6800U.
...
Nah. I think any post I make about the X1800XT is going to bring up that fan whine
...

btw, so is you trolling now caused by Members here making fun of your crappy FX card many years ago. LOL

And I still believe B3D about the fan noises, until something else proves otherwise (besides you crying ATi fansite and bias).

 

[videoclone]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jasonja
The R580 is not 3 generations out... it's 2 months out.

Thanks for the laugh

I laugh with u! ^_^

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: nts

Originally posted by: Rollo
Could be, like me, he's decided you aren't worth replying to for the most part?

More like you just making fud up again.

QFT ! :laugh:

Or more like I_wont_respond_cause_I_cant_back_it_up.

Originally posted by: nts

Originally posted by: Rollo
...
What do I remember? ATI fans attacking nVidia cooling solutions for being bigger and noisier than ATI solutions on the 5800U, 5900U, and 6800U.
...
Nah. I think any post I make about the X1800XT is going to bring up that fan whine
...

btw, so is you trolling now caused by Members here making fun of your crappy FX card many years ago. LOL

And I still believe B3D about the fan noises, until something else proves otherwise (besides you crying ATi fansite and bias).

In short Rollo is trying to justify his flame-bait because he was "emotionally hurt" during the FX era. He might make a good candidate for one of my Psychology experiments.