Atheists sue to stop Christian mentoring

[Riprorin]

U.S. Constitution: First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Explain to me how the First Amedment is being violated.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
U.S. Constitution: First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Explain to me how the First Amedment is being violated.

You already explained it yourself in your post at 8:30 pm.
Please ask your Christian mentor to read it for you 😀

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: Riprorin
"Protecting the autonomy of FBOs was done to enable them to succeed at what they do so well, namely help the poor and needy, and to get FBOs to participate in government programs, something FBOs are far less likely to do if they face compromising regulation."

Should we withold effective programs from the poor and needy?

I don't think that we should. Do you?

Are you the 'ends justifies the means' type of person? Because that's the way you're phrasing the question.

Can you explain how this question relates to the topic?

Because you're attempting to justify the program because of its end results.

ANSWER MY QUESTION

Why do I have to justify a program that's operating within Federal law and is providing a valuable service to troubled teens?

Wow.... I'm surprised that you're unable to answer such a simple question. Either you're afraid of what you truly feel or you just don't really know how you truly feel. I didn't know you were so lost. I wouldn't have asked such a troublesome question if I knew you were afraid to answer it. But it's ok, it's clear to me that you believe that the 'ends justify the means'. I hope you feel more sure in yourself soon.

Edit: Oh, since I'm in such a good mood now, I'll answer your final question. Federal laws change. This charitable choice provision is being debated in congress. It may end up such that this program is not operating within federal law and as a result will be scrapped unless it is revised. If you care so much about the poor and needy, don't you think that the mentorforkids would be willing to put religion aside to help these kids? If they don't, I guess they don't really care about the kids afterall. 😉

 

[Riprorin]

I see that you're reduced to making straw man arguments.

This Mentorforkuds program is operating within the law. The atheist group that is opposing Federal Aid doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

If you don't like the First Amendment, work to get it changed!

 

[Schadenfroh]

for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

 

[Eli]

While I'm supportive of the idea of the seperation of church and state, that's just mean. Who cares if the government helps fund something they don't like? I'm sure the government helps fund something that many of us don't like.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

This topic was originally posted in P&N.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

This topic was originally posted in P&N.

....and was moved, or you reposted it?

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

This topic was originally posted in P&N.

....and was moved, or you reposted it?

Either way, kill it and BURN THE CORPSE.

- M4H

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: eigen

Originally posted by: Riprorin

We believe in...demonstrating its (the churches) commitment by compassionate service to the needs of human beings

Great! They're practicing what they preach by serving troubled children by "offer(ing) concrete expressions of unconditional love and support..."

You ignored my above post .Where they flatly state if you are not christian they will not let you volunteer.
Why should my tax dollars go to something that I cannot even help with.
You dont want your taxes going to NEA art that is blashpemous, or welfare queens...etc....I dont want mine going to religous groups promoting agendas that are not mine.It is not a hard concept ..do not force me at gunpoint to pay for things i do not believe in.I support your right not too...do you support mine?

Don?t we all, as federal taxpayers, have a personal and individual right to not have our taxes paid to a religious organization via programs such as charitable choice?

No. Federal taxpayers have no personal right to prevent monies from being disbursed to a religious organization that is providing a social service pursuant to a general program of public aid. The reputed legal claim by such a taxpayer would be that he or she has a right not to be coerced against conscience or otherwise "religiously offended" when tax monies end up going to a religious organization. The idea has a certain superficial appeal, but the law is to the contrary and for good reason.
The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to recognize a federal taxpayer claim of religious coercion or other personal religious harm.3 As federal citizens our taxes support all manner of policies and programs with which we deeply disagree. Taxes pay the salaries of public officials whose policies we despise and oppose at every opportunity. None of these complaints give rise to constitutionally cognizable "injuries" to us as federal taxpayers. There is no reason that a federal taxpayer alleging "religious coercion" or being "religiously offended" should, on the merits of the claim, be treated any differently.

Isn't Charitable Choice Government-Funded Discrimination?

Rip, I hope you remember this logic when someone asks you how you feel about using government money to support family planning services (e.g., abortion, birth control methods, sex ed.).

 

[JackBurton]

Good. I hope they win the lawsuit.

 

[Insane3D]

WhoTF let Rip out of P&N?

:|:roll:

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: eigen

Originally posted by: Riprorin

We believe in...demonstrating its (the churches) commitment by compassionate service to the needs of human beings

Great! They're practicing what they preach by serving troubled children by "offer(ing) concrete expressions of unconditional love and support..."

You ignored my above post .Where they flatly state if you are not christian they will not let you volunteer.
Why should my tax dollars go to something that I cannot even help with.
You dont want your taxes going to NEA art that is blashpemous, or welfare queens...etc....I dont want mine going to religous groups promoting agendas that are not mine.It is not a hard concept ..do not force me at gunpoint to pay for things i do not believe in.I support your right not too...do you support mine?

Don?t we all, as federal taxpayers, have a personal and individual right to not have our taxes paid to a religious organization via programs such as charitable choice?

No. Federal taxpayers have no personal right to prevent monies from being disbursed to a religious organization that is providing a social service pursuant to a general program of public aid. The reputed legal claim by such a taxpayer would be that he or she has a right not to be coerced against conscience or otherwise "religiously offended" when tax monies end up going to a religious organization. The idea has a certain superficial appeal, but the law is to the contrary and for good reason.
The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to recognize a federal taxpayer claim of religious coercion or other personal religious harm.3 As federal citizens our taxes support all manner of policies and programs with which we deeply disagree. Taxes pay the salaries of public officials whose policies we despise and oppose at every opportunity. None of these complaints give rise to constitutionally cognizable "injuries" to us as federal taxpayers. There is no reason that a federal taxpayer alleging "religious coercion" or being "religiously offended" should, on the merits of the claim, be treated any differently.

Isn't Charitable Choice Government-Funded Discrimination?

Rip, I hope you remember this logic when someone asks you how you feel about using government money to support family planning services (e.g., abortion, birth control methods, sex ed.).

Did you just associate Rip with logic? 😛

 

[ElFenix]

wtf why is this here?

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: eigen

Originally posted by: Riprorin

We believe in...demonstrating its (the churches) commitment by compassionate service to the needs of human beings

Great! They're practicing what they preach by serving troubled children by "offer(ing) concrete expressions of unconditional love and support..."

You ignored my above post .Where they flatly state if you are not christian they will not let you volunteer.
Why should my tax dollars go to something that I cannot even help with.
You dont want your taxes going to NEA art that is blashpemous, or welfare queens...etc....I dont want mine going to religous groups promoting agendas that are not mine.It is not a hard concept ..do not force me at gunpoint to pay for things i do not believe in.I support your right not too...do you support mine?

Don?t we all, as federal taxpayers, have a personal and individual right to not have our taxes paid to a religious organization via programs such as charitable choice?

No. Federal taxpayers have no personal right to prevent monies from being disbursed to a religious organization that is providing a social service pursuant to a general program of public aid. The reputed legal claim by such a taxpayer would be that he or she has a right not to be coerced against conscience or otherwise "religiously offended" when tax monies end up going to a religious organization. The idea has a certain superficial appeal, but the law is to the contrary and for good reason.
The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to recognize a federal taxpayer claim of religious coercion or other personal religious harm.3 As federal citizens our taxes support all manner of policies and programs with which we deeply disagree. Taxes pay the salaries of public officials whose policies we despise and oppose at every opportunity. None of these complaints give rise to constitutionally cognizable "injuries" to us as federal taxpayers. There is no reason that a federal taxpayer alleging "religious coercion" or being "religiously offended" should, on the merits of the claim, be treated any differently.

Isn't Charitable Choice Government-Funded Discrimination?

Rip, I hope you remember this logic when someone asks you how you feel about using government money to support family planning services (e.g., abortion, birth control methods, sex ed.).

Did you just associate Rip with logic? 😛

That's funnier than the guy spamming his forums. 😛

- M4H

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

This topic was originally posted in P&N.

....and was moved, or you reposted it?

It was moved.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
for the love of anand, take this out of ATOT, take this to politics and news

For once I agree with this guy.😛 This thread is P&N material, and the OP knows it... :roll:

This topic was originally posted in P&N.

....and was moved, or you reposted it?

It was moved.

WTF for?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Honestly, what's wrong with Christian mentoring? If someone wants to be mentored by a Christian, who cares? If the government wants to give money to a Christian organization, what's wrong with that? You guys are acting like Christians are worse than murderers or something or that the government giving money to a Christian organization is against the law.

News flash, folks. It's not against the law. And what's honestly so bad about mentoring that includes a proper set of ethics/morals?

 

[Insane3D]

It was probably moved to remind everyone of why they don't post in P&N...

😀

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: Nik
Honestly, what's wrong with Christian mentoring? If someone wants to be mentored by a Christian, who cares? If the government wants to give money to a Christian organization, what's wrong with that? You guys are acting like Christians are worse than murderers or something or that the government giving money to a Christian organization is against the law.

News flash, folks. It's not against the law. And what's honestly so bad about mentoring that includes a proper set of ethics/morals?

Look how well it worked for you!

😛

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: Nik
Honestly, what's wrong with Christian mentoring? If someone wants to be mentored by a Christian, who cares? If the government wants to give money to a Christian organization, what's wrong with that? You guys are acting like Christians are worse than murderers or something or that the government giving money to a Christian organization is against the law.

News flash, folks. It's not against the law. And what's honestly so bad about mentoring that includes a proper set of ethics/morals?

Look how well it worked for you!

😛

Is that supposed to be an insult? Are you trying to insinuate that I have some miserably failed sense of ethics or morals?

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: Nik
Honestly, what's wrong with Christian mentoring? If someone wants to be mentored by a Christian, who cares? If the government wants to give money to a Christian organization, what's wrong with that? You guys are acting like Christians are worse than murderers or something or that the government giving money to a Christian organization is against the law.

News flash, folks. It's not against the law. And what's honestly so bad about mentoring that includes a proper set of ethics/morals?

Your language appears to suggest that you believe mentoring without christian affiliation cannot achieve ethical and moral standards.

But to answer your question, there are 2 issues here.

1) does the funding of a fbo that requires religious affiliations of either its employees or its beneficiaries constitute government sponsered religion?

and more importantly IMO,

2) the christian right wants government funds to go to faith based organizations, but doesn't want government funds used for programs that sponser activities percieved to be incongruent with their christian-political platform (i.e., stem cell research, family planning, etc...).

 

[Insane3D]

Actually, I just figured that is where you learned to grab ass. :Q

😛

Psssssst....

It's ATOT....lighten up.

Here..let me help...

:sun:

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
Your language appears to suggest that you believe mentoring without christian affiliation cannot achieve ethical and moral standards.

But to answer your question, there are 2 issues here.

1) does the funding of a fbo that requires religious affiliations of either its employees or its beneficiaries constitute government sponsered religion?

and more importantly IMO,

2) the christian right wants government funds to go to faith based organizations, but doesn't want government funds used for programs that sponser activities percieved to be incongruent with their christian-political platform (i.e., stem cell research, family planning, etc...).

Every little bit helps. 🙂

1) No, it constitutes the government contracting out for rehabilitation help.

2) The Christian Right doesn't have 100% agreement on every issue from it's constituants (sp?). I'm all for stem cell research. "Family Planning" is just another way to say abortion, in the liberal's eye. Family Planning, to me, means not making a family until you're fvcking responsible enough for one.