(AT) Apple's new 3D rendering API "Metal"

[3DVagabond]

11:38AM PDT - YES! New 3D API

11:39AM PDT - OpenGL is a layer of overhead, so iOS will fix that

11:39AM PDT - Means you can get much closer to the metal to increase perf, up to 10x draw call rates

Any of this look familiar?

11:40AM PDT - Apple is working with many gaming partners for metal

Below is apparently the first game ported to Metal.

Plants vs Zombies. What a surprise!

Sure seems like it's likely Mantle for OSX? I'm sure there will be those who won't see the connection though.

 

[Silverforce11]

This is massive, its going to make Apple games completely blow away Android.

Where's Google version of Mantle? I think it will be a lot harder since Android is so fragmented, for them to come up with a universal API for all the different hardware.

 

[The Alias]

This is massive, its going to make Apple games completely blow away Android.

Where's Google version of Mantle? I think it will be a lot harder since Android is so fragmented, for them to come up with a universal API for all the different hardware.

this going to magnify the developer's advantage with ios over android ridiculously

 

[Jodell88]

I just see this as vendor lock in. Sure the big studios have the resources to develop a game in both Metal and OpenGL ES but the smaller devs do not.

Also, which version of OpenGL ES did Apple compare Metal to, OpenGL ES 2.0?

 

[BFG10K]

I just see this as vendor lock in.

Yup. Now all we need is nVidia and Intel to develop their own APIs to fragment everything even further.

Imagine a world where you need a different graphics cards or phone depending on what game you play. That's great for consumers because you're getting metal performance!

</sarcasm>

 

[monstercameron]

doesnt ogl have vendor specific extensions? isnt that a form of vendor lockin?

 

[tviceman]

I am kind of shocked by how Nvidia, considered the market leader and pioneer of the "GPU" (aside from 3dfx being the granddaddy), is being handily out-maneuvered with moves like this. AMD snags all the set-top consoles, brings out Mantle to leverage their position, and now Apple moves in.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Nvidia would truly benefit from a merger with Intel. They couldn't keep up with Qualcomm in phones, they're getting pushed out of tablets by Qualcomm, Mediatek, and Rockchip. Not having x86 keeps them out of Windows (aside from the miniscule RT slice). Putting Nvidia Maxwell, or heck even old and broken Kepler, on an Intel CPU would have geeks around the world frothing with delight. Instead, we're stuck with 7 games a year with physx, SHIELD, and Audi car infotainment systems. Hell, even nearly a year after announcing they will license their architecture IP to anyone, not a single customer has been named. It really is a shame.

JHH may be a great CEO in many regards, but I feel like he's become too closed minded to potential opportunities over the years.

 

[Fox5]

When did Apple start on this? It seems that must have been inspired by AMD like Microsoft was.

AMD is maneuvering pretty well with developer relations right now. And since they now produce ARM chips (and potentially will license GCN), that means Mantle could show up in mobile devices too.

Did Apple mention what GPUs this will support? All their phones use PowerVR gpus, but what generation?

 

[cmdrdredd]

I am kind of shocked by how Nvidia, considered the market leader and pioneer of the "GPU" (aside from 3dfx being the granddaddy), is being handily out-maneuvered with moves like this. AMD snags all the set-top consoles, brings out Mantle to leverage their position, and now Apple moves in.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Nvidia would truly benefit from a merger with Intel. They couldn't keep up with Qualcomm in phones, they're getting pushed out of tablets by Qualcomm, Mediatek, and Rockchip. Not having x86 keeps them out of Windows (aside from the miniscule RT slice). Putting Nvidia Maxwell, or heck even old and broken Kepler, on an Intel CPU would have geeks around the world frothing with delight. Instead, we're stuck with 7 games a year with physx, SHIELD, and Audi car infotainment systems. Hell, even nearly a year after announcing they will license their architecture IP to anyone, not a single customer has been named. It really is a shame.

JHH may be a great CEO in many regards, but I feel like he's become too closed minded to potential opportunities over the years.

When DX12 comes out and Mantle is forgotten Nvidia will be fine. They still have most of the dGPU market.

This Metal stuff from Apple is just a way to get more crappy games on your ipad. No thanks.

 

[Silverforce11]

@tviceman NV couldn't compete with the mobile giants, and neither can Intel. Their Atoms are trash and a laughing stock in the mobile world.

AMD's biggest mistake in their entire history was the selling of their mobile division to Qualcomm for peanuts ($65M .. wth were they thinking). Now Snapdragons have leading mobile graphics and the goto SOC for performance devices.

Samsung is not going to let itself be outdone by Apple, so expect a Korean BBQ Extra Hot Mantle served soon. It's just going to be horrible for small devs on Android with so many different hardware out there and if its a new API, it won't be a standard.

@cmdrdredd Mobile gaming is the most lucrative market for developers currently and with the largest growth.

 

[3DVagabond]

IF they were able to get this out on the iPad due to the development done with Mantle making it an easy port, which seems likely, then no, DX12 will not make Mantle go away. Maybe Johan will elaborate more?

 

[stahlhart]

Moving to All Things Apple.
-- stahlhart

 

[KeithP]

I just see this as vendor lock in.

Of course, Apple loves their walled garden and just wants to build taller walls.

-KeithP

 

[cmdrdredd]

.

@cmdrdredd Mobile gaming is the most lucrative market for developers currently and with the largest growth.

Is that why rockstar made a billion dollars in a week selling a console game? Tell me what mobile game did that ever.

People keep saying mobile gaming is the future and blah blah. Yet constantly this is proven untrue at every turn. People who buy real games are not buying them on their phones and tablets. The only games that even do well are free games with pay to win models.

 

[cmdrdredd]

IF they were able to get this out on the iPad due to the development done with Mantle making it an easy port, which seems likely, then no, DX12 will not make Mantle go away. Maybe Johan will elaborate more?

Heh...yeah it will because vender lock in is stupid on PC and when you can support 100% of the market by using dx12 (and getting the draw call benefit etc) or 40% of the market with mantle...it is an easy call. Sure you could so both but why bother when directx is enough to get your game shipped?

It has already been said that nvidia isn't really competing in the mobile space anyway. So this doesn't really affect them to begin with.

 

[Eug]

Heh...yeah it will because vender lock in is stupid on PC and when you can support 100% of the market by using dx12 (and getting the draw call benefit etc) or 40% of the market with mantle...it is an easy call. Sure you could so both but why bother when directx is enough to get your game shipped?

It has already been said that nvidia isn't really competing in the mobile space anyway. So this doesn't really affect them to begin with.

Nvidia is not competing in the mobile space but you're making a mistake thinking that they don't want to compete in the mobile space. I'm sure they desperately want to but cannot compete.

 

[Kaido]

Apple is so metal.

 

[Kaido]

But on a serious note, that demo with the thousands of butterflies was pretty awesome.

 

[Eug]

Glad I have an A7.

 

[Rakehellion]

this going to magnify the developer's advantage with ios over android ridiculously

iOS GPUs have always been superior to Android devices.

 

[Rakehellion]

I just see this as vendor lock in. Sure the big studios have the resources to develop a game in both Metal and OpenGL ES but the smaller devs do not.

The smaller devs probably don't have the resources to port their apps to Android, Mac, Windows either. And there aren't a whole lot of sizeable games for phones anyway.

If you're that low on money, you just license someone else's engine anyway.

 

[Rakehellion]

People who buy real games are not buying them on their phones and tablets.

Many people don't buy "real games." Clash of Clans and Hay Day are pulling billions of dollars. And those are in 2D.

 

[Oyeve]

I'm not really seeing the big deal in all of this. Unless the iphone goes 5"+ on the screen.

 

[TheStu]

I'm not really seeing the big deal in all of this. Unless the iphone goes 5"+ on the screen.

Because iOS isn't just the iPhone.

There's the iPad and iPad mini, and maybe (big maybe) the AppleTV as well

 

[Subyman]

When did Apple start on this? It seems that must have been inspired by AMD like Microsoft was.

AMD is maneuvering pretty well with developer relations right now. And since they now produce ARM chips (and potentially will license GCN), that means Mantle could show up in mobile devices too.

Did Apple mention what GPUs this will support? All their phones use PowerVR gpus, but what generation?

I highly doubt they started after AMD Mantle announcement. Apple has been hiring mobile GPU software and hardware devs for about 2-3 years. GPUs becoming much more important in day-to-day computing needs makes the abstraction layer between dev and GPU the obvious place to refine. Especially considering hardware improvements are becoming harder to develop.