[AT]AMD Demonstrates "FreeSync", Free G-Sync Alternative, at CES 2014

[bystander36]

VBLANK has been in the standards since the CRT days. My guess is that virtually all monitors support it since it's part of the standard. If they didn't it's because the manufacturers removed the functionality for simplicity. It can be added back in with a firmware update.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_blanking_interval

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data (note the vertical blanking descriptors in the EDID Detailed Timing Descriptor section)

The Nvidia G-Sync hardware is primarily there to make sure you own a Nvidia graphics card. We can't be giving this stuff away now can we? Seriously. In order to put a gate keeper into a monitor, they created an implementation that replaces the video scaler. AMD clearly shows you can do the same thing w/o the need for a different scaler.

There are a lot of standards which simply aren't implemented. Just because there is a standard does not automatically mean it is included.

Let's wait and see how this goes, but if monitors already allowed this, and AMD GPU's already support this, it is shocking that we have not had access to it.

 

[Abwx]

From that link via Google Translate:

I did a translation above but this is a welcomed reminder...

Anyway kudos to those who managed to hype what
was actualy a weakness , brillant marketing with some
fine Rambus taste...

 

[Paul98]

V-Blank works from the GPU to the monitor. The GPU doesn't know in which state the current frame is.
So you can send a start and end command but if your next frame will be faster ready then you overwrite the current one before it is finished.

Wouldn't capping the frame rate to the max refresh rate get rid of that problem?

 

[blastingcap]

VBLANK has been in the standards since the CRT days. My guess is that virtually all monitors support it since it's part of the standard. If they didn't it's because the manufacturers removed the functionality for simplicity. It can be added back in with a firmware update.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_blanking_interval

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data (note the vertical blanking descriptors in the EDID Detailed Timing Descriptor section)

The Nvidia G-Sync hardware is primarily there to make sure you own a Nvidia graphics card. We can't be giving this stuff away now can we? Seriously. In order to put a gate keeper into a monitor, they created an implementation that replaces the video scaler. AMD clearly shows you can do the same thing w/o the need for a different scaler.

I really, really hope that what you say is true. Anyone would, actually. Who would turn down "free" (no-extra-cost, already-built-into-your-existing-desktop-monitor) GSYNC? But if it were that easy, if AMD GPUs supported it for generations now, why was it not implemented earlier? Why show it on new AMD laptops rather than existing desktop monitors? If they had shown existing desktop monitors doing Freesync alongside the Toshiba laptops, wouldn't that be a more powerful statement than just the lappies? Thus I think maybe it was not uniformly treated, like you said and like Anand implied, when he specifically inserted the word "mobile" into his sentence.

 

[Despoiler]

Can you link to the video?
What I see is a 50hz V-Sync video.

I can show you the same without DisplayPort.

You should watch the video again. Left frame time stays pegged. Right varies....

 

[blackened23]

The AT article also alluded to the fact that AMD Should speak to panel vendors to get it implemented. Something tells me desktop panels don't have it.

From the article:

but my guess is we’ll see more panel vendors encouraged to include support for variable VBLANK and perhaps an eventual AMD driver update that enables control over this function.

So which panels support VARIABLE vblank? This entire thing reeks of nonsense. If it were this simple, nvidia would not apply FPGAs to existing monitors. Then there's the fact that AMD has no timeline, no plans to bring this to market, and they need to talk to panel vendors to get variable vblank implemented?

So here's another promise that AMD has given as a marketing stunt. I think their track record on not delivering on promises speaks volumes, but hey. Whatever. Nice marketing stunt. At least they don't have powerpoints for it. YET. The AMD powerpoint phase happens when something is a year away, I think.

 

[Abwx]

But if it were that easy, if AMD GPUs supported it for generations now, why was it not implemented earlier?

According to HFR articles there are already numerous
panels that support VBLANK...

I repost the link.

http://www.hardware.fr/news/13517/ces-amd-freesync-g-sync-gratuit.html

 

[blackened23]

Variable vblank is what needs to be supported. But hey. Let's just pretend that nvidia added FPGA's for no reason.

AMD's marketing team at its finest. I found the answer. Variable vblank is used as a power saving feature on laptops. But it isn't present on desktop screens. So any bets on whether AMD can actually bring this to market?

 

[blastingcap]

According to HFR articles there are already numerous
panels that support VBLANK...

I repost the link.

http://www.hardware.fr/news/13517/ces-amd-freesync-g-sync-gratuit.html

I can't read French and don't want to entrust Google Translate with accurately translating a technical matter. Existing panels support VBLANK yes but in a variable way, a way that is compatible with variable framerate refresh? I suspect maybe not.

 

[Abwx]

The AT article also alluded to the fact that AMD Should speak to panel vendors to get it implemented. Something tells me desktop panels don't have it.

From the article:



So which panels support VARIABLE vblank? This entire thing reeks of nonsense. If it were this simple, nvidia would not apply FPGAs to existing monitors. Then there's the fact that AMD has no timeline, no plans to bring this to market, and they need to talk to panel vendors to get variable vblank implemented?

So here's another promise that AMD has given as a marketing stunt. I think their track record on not delivering on promises speaks volumes, but hey. Whatever. Nice marketing stunt. At least they don't have powerpoints for it. YET. The AMD powerpoint phase happens when something is a year away, I think.

Since the first article about gsync i pointed that it was a completely trivial technology , now if you dont trust me ask an engineer , or even better a VESA member , all that is needed is GPU engine and drivers being compatibles, so it s a hardware and software thing and it s likely that NVidia didnt implement this functionality and are currently trying to buy time by presenting this reinvented wheel as a great idea of theirs.

I can't read French and don't want to entrust Google Translate with accurately translating a technical matter. Existing panels support VBLANK yes but in a variable way, a way that is compatible with variable framerate refresh? I suspect maybe not.

What i answered to Blackened is merely what is said
in HFR article where they also say that VBLANK functionality
is exactly the same as Gsync.

They say that the functionality must be implemented
in the GPU engine , i conclude that AMD did implement
it but it s doubtfull for Nvidia , i cant believe that what
is only a communication protocol would need a separate
module to be implemented while it would use a paltry
area inside the GPU and thus would reduce massively the final cost of the tech.

 

[Despoiler]

I really, really hope that what you say is true. Anyone would, actually. Who would turn down "free" (no-extra-cost, already-built-into-your-existing-desktop-monitor) GSYNC? But if it were that easy, if AMD GPUs supported it for generations now, why was it not implemented earlier? Why show it on new AMD laptops rather than existing desktop monitors? If they had shown existing desktop monitors doing Freesync alongside the Toshiba laptops, wouldn't that be a more powerful statement than just the lappies? Thus I think maybe it was not uniformly treated, like you said and like Anand implied, when he specifically inserted the word "mobile" into his sentence.

Well you have to remember that AMD isn't exactly the behemoth that Nvidia is. They are scraping bottom as far as company survival. Their technical talent was poached a long time ago. Novel uses of existing standards ultimately come down to an "a-ha" moment and then the freedom to get that information to engineering teams to implement.

We should be able to use a program like Monitor Asset Manager to verify what our monitors support. I'm not at home right now, but I'm going to fire it up and see what's what in a little bit from now.

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

 

[blackened23]

Nobody cares about their financial situation. What they do care about is end results and delivering on promises. AMD's trackrecord on delivering? Horrible. For freesync? Are they going to get panel makers on board? Do they have a plan and timeframe to bring it to market? I highly suspect they won't. Again. History will just repeat itself. Misdelivered promises. Again.

The pity card is somewhat fun, though.

 

[3DVagabond]

I can't read French and don't want to entrust Google Translate with accurately translating a technical matter. Existing panels support VBLANK yes but in a variable way, a way that is compatible with variable framerate refresh? I suspect maybe not.

While it might be a technical matter, the typical reading level is still 5th grade, just like it's always been. Awe, go ahead and use Google translate. It doesn't hurt, I promise.

 

[3DVagabond]

Nobody cares about their financial situation. What they do care about is end results and delivering on promises. AMD's trackrecord on delivering? Horrible. For freesync? Are they going to get panel makers on board? Do they have a plan and timeframe to bring it to market? I highly suspect they won't. Again. History will just repeat itself. Misdelivered promises. Again.

The pity card is somewhat fun, though.

So, nothing about Freesync, just more "AMD is suxor!"?

 

[taserbro]

The link also say that the VESA consortium was stunned
by NVidia announcement since the VESA standard already
has this very same functionality officialy implemented.

Conclude what you want.

Probably something that's worth pointing out is that the VESA consortium is another patent cooperative like JEDEC or the infamous H264 group and just so happens to include ati/amd in its ranks but not nvidia and the only actual display maker member is Nec.

Their being "stunned" by g-sync going around their standard sure sounds a little funnier in the context of what they actually do to make a living.

 

[blackened23]

So, nothing about Freesync, just more "AMD is suxor!"?

There's nothing more to say about freesync other than what AMD themselves said. You read the article. Didn't you? No timeframe for bringing it to market. No plan to bring it to market. Monitor manufacturers consulted with? Zero.
You can vilify nvidia all you want for g-sync costing too much, but nvidia will at least deliver a product with G-sync. I'll bet money that free-sync will never ever happen, based on AMD's history. By all means, there's the great hope, though. It always is a waiting game with AMD. Wait for this driver. Wait for that. We'll fix frame pacing. Promise. Oh it's two years later. Sorry about that. Eyefinity tearing on the 5870? We'll fix it. Only. They didn't. HD3D is great. Only we're going to abandon it. Oh you have to pay for the HD3D driver now. Sorry.

So you can play the waiting game, by all means have fun with that. Pretty sure this is a marketing stunt with no end products being developed for the market, but it would be a good thing if i'm wrong on that. I just can't ignore AMD's history on delivering on promises. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me and such. I've been there. Listening to AMD's promises as a prior AMD owner.

So, like I said, you go right ahead and play the waiting game. And wait. And wait. And wait some more.

 

[3DVagabond]

There's nothing more to say about freesync other than what AMD themselves said. You read the article. Didn't you? No timeframe for bringing it to market. No plan to bring it to market. Monitor manufacturers consulted with? Zero.
You can vilify nvidia all you want for g-sync costing too much, but nvidia will at least deliver a product with G-sync. I'll bet money that free-sync will never ever happen, based on AMD's history. By all means, there's the great hope, though. It always is a waiting game with AMD. Wait for this driver. Wait for that. We'll fix frame pacing. Promise. Oh it's two years later. Sorry about that. Eyefinity tearing on the 5870? We'll fix it. Only. They didn't. HD3D is great. Only we're going to abandon it. Oh you have to pay for the HD3D driver now. Sorry.

So you can play the waiting game, by all means have fun with that. Pretty sure this is a marketing stunt with no end products being developed for the market, but it would be a good thing if i'm wrong on that. I just can't ignore AMD's history on delivering on promises.

So, like I said, you go right ahead and play the waiting game. And wait. And wait. And wait some more.

It would be different if I saw Gsync as worth $300. As long as it costs extra, I will wait.

 

[Teizo]

I really, really hope that what you say is true. Anyone would, actually. Who would turn down "free" (no-extra-cost, already-built-into-your-existing-desktop-monitor) GSYNC? But if it were that easy, if AMD GPUs supported it for generations now, why was it not implemented earlier? Why show it on new AMD laptops rather than existing desktop monitors? If they had shown existing desktop monitors doing Freesync alongside the Toshiba laptops, wouldn't that be a more powerful statement than just the lappies? Thus I think maybe it was not uniformly treated, like you said and like Anand implied, when he specifically inserted the word "mobile" into his sentence.

That's true. Why the heck did they wait so long to implement this? Why does it take Nvidia releasing something to get them off their laurels? And on top of that, why don't they have a bring to market plan in place if it is so great?

Nonetheless, this is interesting. More choices is a good thing, but something is off here.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Probably something that's worth pointing out is that the VESA consortium is another patent cooperative like JEDEC or the infamous H264 group and just so happens to include ati/amd in its ranks but not nvidia and the only actual display maker member is Nec.

Their being "stunned" by g-sync going around their standard sure sounds a little funnier in the context of what they actually do to make a living.

They were probably stunned someone figured out V-Sync sucks and using it for variable frame delivery is a poor mans alternative to a small part of G-Sync's functionality.

 

[bystander36]

I expect AMD to deliver the product. Whether it takes off, and how much they try to make it take off may be another story.

I like 3D, and I have used both HD3D and 3D Vision. HD3D was AMD's response to 3D Vision, using an open standard.

It had potential, but they did not support the software, so you have to buy it from Tridef (Iz3d used to exist too, but closed recently). Samsung even supported a few active 3d displays, which were quite good by all accounts. Unfortunately, no one makes an active 3D display that supports HD3D anymore. They left it up to 3rd parties to support it, and they stopped.

I hope AMD is more proactive about this, as I would like an open standard G-sync monitor. Even if I end up with a G-sync monitor, having that option on AMD will keep costs in check and better yet, it could be open to both brands.

 

[3DVagabond]

I expect AMD to deliver the product. Whether it takes off, and how much they try to make it take off may be another story.

I like 3D, and I have used both HD3D and 3D Vision. HD3D was AMD's response to 3D Vision, using an open standard.

It had potential, but they did not support the software, so you have to buy it from Tridef (Iz3d used to exist too, but closed recently). Samsung even supported a few active 3d displays, which were quite good by all accounts. Unfortunately, no one makes an active 3D display that supports HD3D anymore. They left it up to 3rd parties to support it, and they stopped.

I hope AMD is more proactive about this, as I would like an open standard G-sync monitor. Even if I end up with a G-sync monitor, having that option on AMD will keep costs in check and better yet, it could be open to both brands.

3D died because it sucks. It's not a sought after feature on TV's either. Hollywood has tried to sell us on 3D for decades now. So far, all implementations of it have ultimately failed. That, as much as anything else, is probably why AMD didn't put a lot of resources into it.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Weird stance, considering Nvidia still fully supports all the people who went out and bought expensive hardware just to run their 3D Vision.

 

[bystander36]

3D died because it sucks. It's not a sought after feature on TV's either. Hollywood has tried to sell us on 3D for decades now. So far, all implementations of it have ultimately failed. That, as much as anything else, is probably why AMD didn't put a lot of resources into it.

That may be the popular opinion, but those who have used in it in games that supported it well, mostly disagree. The problem is there are so many bad 3D implementations, that people don't give 3D Vision a chance.

Anyways, let's just hope AMD puts more effort into this.

 

[3DVagabond]

That may be the popular opinion, but those who have used in it in games that supported it well, mostly disagree. The problem is there are so many bad 3D implementations, that people don't give 3D Vision a chance.

Anyways, let's just hope AMD puts more effort into this.

I'm not saying that it always sucks for everyone. Just that overall not enough people want it to support the feature as it exists. It's just too much hassle. With the glasses, and having to sit in the sweet spot, moving your head disrupts the effect, additional fatigue, etc...

 

[bystander36]

I'm not saying that it always sucks for everyone. Just that overall not enough people want it to support the feature as it exists. It's just too much hassle. With the glasses, and having to sit in the sweet spot, moving your head disrupts the effect, additional fatigue, etc...

I know that is what has spread through the internet. And those things are true, but not all of them at the same time. Those are a list of all the problems for all the methods added up together, but with the proper setup, many of those issue disappear.

I don't disagree the popular opinion may have caused it to not be favored. I'm just saying, I hope AMD does better with this.