Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

[Jaydip]

Objective is the key word. Let me know when we have a test done that is objective, but measuring something and then trying to attribute an effect to it that nobody who uses the hardware ever sees, isn't objective. It's finding a measurement that nVidia beats AMD in and trying to make it appear that the fact AMD cards are faster and better value is irrelevant because of this one statistic. Until we have a double blind comparison that identifies there is a problem, we have absolutely nothing to base these conclusions on.

Back in the day (mid 80's) I was involved in double blind comparisons of Audio equipment. Until you've done something like that you can't understand how biased we all really are. You need to recreate the natural environment. An investigative environment often adds stress to the subject and interferes with one's ability to sense (hear, see, taste) differences. It's really not as simple as A/B comparisons.

I don't remember anyone saying that.So far all we have is subjective findings from [H] and not very accurate findings from TR.That is why we need to find out the true picture.As I said previously my brother who uses 7950 DC II never told me about MS at all.But it is subjective and that is why we need to find an objective solution to it.

 

[3DVagabond]

The more you try to stifle this thread the worse it looks upon you. Im asking for an investigation. You (and other here) are trying to stop one from happening. Who do you think looks like a paid viral marketer? Me asking for knowledge or you trying to block it?
/owned

You're asking for measurements to be taken that you know the likely outcome of already, and are prepared to declare superiority for nVidia in spite of all other objective measurements to the contrary, when we haven't even established that the phenomenon exists. When/if it's established that nVidia cards are indeed visually superior (smoother), then we might want to investigate why. What you are trying to incite here is a witch hunt.

For arguments sake, I think that the added processing that nVidia is using is interfering with the efficient delivery of frames to the screen. It's unnecessary signal processing that's degrading the overall gaming performance. Let's have an investigation, shall we?

 

[omeds]

Well, out of the box SLI does seem smoother to me. With frame caps (and/or vsync depending on the game), both provide an equally excellent experience as far as microstutter goes imo.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

You're asking for measurements to be taken that you know the likely outcome of already, and are prepared to declare superiority for nVidia in spite of all other objective measurements to the contrary, when we haven't even established that the phenomenon exists. When/if it's established that nVidia cards are indeed visually superior (smoother), then we might want to investigate why. What you are trying to incite here is a witch hunt.

For arguments sake, I think that the added processing that nVidia is using is interfering with the efficient delivery of frames to the screen. It's unnecessary signal processing that's degrading the overall gaming performance. Let's have an investigation, shall we?

Keys already claimed that AMD GPU's started microstutter after 12.11 and that's how AMD got the extra performance out of the cards.

 

[SirPauly]

This thread is hilarious.
So now we have a new performance metric to add to video card tests?
Smoothness/per watt

<Hint for the future> Watch "smoothness" sail out the window next time NVDA manages to get a frames per second lead.:whiste:

Not for me, been talking about smoothness and investigations in these areas for years and could care less which company offers the fastest. The key with smoothness as it may effect the family of GPU's experience. For benchmark enthusiasts, well, it may be irrelevant but smoothness is very important playing games.

If you desire just frames -- nVidia and AMD may just optimize just for frames.

 

[wand3r3r]

This thread is hilarious.
So now we have a new performance metric to add to video card tests?
Smoothness/per watt

<Hint for the future> Watch "smoothness" sail out the window next time NVDA manages to get a frames per second lead.:whiste:

Agreed. The same with many other "issues" of the day. Once the 780 (assuming it's the true high end card and not mid range again) or the next true high end NV card drops and regains the crown a lot of people will be singing another tune about the significance power consumption, fps, etc.

 

[SirPauly]

When/if it's established that nVidia cards are indeed visually superior (smoother), then we might want to investigate why. What you are trying to incite here is a witch hunt.

Don't you think that nVidia SLi is out-of-the-box smoother than CrossFire?

 

[ICDP]

Don't you think that nVidia SLi is out-of-the-box smoother than CrossFire?

Yes, most definitely, but that doesn't mean SLI is MS free. Both CF and SLI give MS and both require frame caps and vsync to reduce the stutter to acceptable levels. When [H] recommends SLI over CF because of "smoothness" they don't test with vsync and FPS caps etc. This is a disservice to a potential purchaser because from my experience you need to enable FPS caps and vsync on both SLI and CF to get an MS free experience. CF 7970s are up to 30% faster in some cases than SLI 680s. 7970 CF won in every single game [H] tested, yet SLI gets the nod because of the feeling of smoothness. Not once did they even mention that setting an FPS cap or vsync would eliminate the issue and you would still have the extra performance.

Please don't say that reviews don't use 3rd party tools. [H] use MSI Afterburner or EVGA precisions and other overclocking tools in their reviews all the time. At least Tomshardware demonstrated how dynamic vsync and FPS caps removed the microstutters in their recent 7990 review.

 

[3DVagabond]

Hey Ryan,

Big wars are a brewing over this Nvidia is smoother than AMD at similar framerates thingy.

Would you be interested in doing an examination and report on this?
So far, HardOCP and TechReport have reported on this phenomena and I'd think it wouldn't hurt if Anandtech did some digging.

Thanks!
Please let us know if this is a problem.

Don't you think that nVidia SLi is out-of-the-box smoother than CrossFire?

Please reread the OP. Where does does it say anything about SLI vs. Crossfire?


You are stating SLI vs. Crossfire "out-of-box". I believe you actually would need to qualify it further by saying "at certain settings", for example, w/o vsync, and below a particular FPS threshold, and "with certain games". Even [H] states that some games are a better experience on crossfired 7970's than SLI'd 680's.

So this blanket statement that nVidia is smoother than AMD is taking a limited scenario and trying to spin it into nVidia being smoother period.

 

[Keysplayr]

We know it can't be completely extrapolated to the actual experience because FRAPs can only report on part of the game processing path. So far it is that single Techreport article that shows some noisiness in the part of the path FRAPs measures. They have yet to post a more detailed investigation of their unusual results.

Delving more objectively into this would be interesting. But I find the tint Keysplayr has put on this a bit over the top.



I personally wouldn't take a position on something which requires a lot more examination.



Big wars, really? Perhaps it's a reflection of Keysplayr's intentions?



If by so much talk he means his own...



My recollection could be completely shot but CF vs SLI microstutter has been discussed for quite some time.



I'm noticing a trend about where 'all this "smoothness" talk' is coming from.



Quite a strong statement to base on the one Techreport article.

---

I'm actually as interested as Keysplayr is in seeing this looked into more thoroughly. But perhaps the hyperbole could be turned down a notch?

I think perhaps if the thread crappers were handled appropriately, my replies to them would either not exist or be a great deal more in check. Vesku, do not single me out. I don't see you breaking down the thread crappers posts like you just did mine.

 

[Keysplayr]

Keys already claimed that AMD GPU's started microstutter after 12.11 and that's how AMD got the extra performance out of the cards.

Well, sort of. I suspect that the Never Settle drivers may have sacrificed even more latency or smoothness of gameplay (Microstutter across multi GPU and single GPU systems alike? If you will? ) for dramatic increase in framerates for their lineup of products.
I asked Ryan if he could conduct the experiment. It seems he will not until he feels he has the proper tools to do so, and mentions this will be sooner than later. That's fine. I also encourage all those who belong to other forums on other review sites to inquire about this sort of experiment. PM your admin or if you know who the editors are, PM them and ask if they are interested in this "potential" issue.
Like I said, it could prove to be nothing or it could be a real issue.

@3DVagabond. You are scared to death, judging by your posts, that I'll make a battle cry across the Interwebs that even though AMD has higher framerates, this means nothing as their gameplay isn't as smooth as competing Nvidia GPUs at even much lower framerate scenarios.

Dude, don't be scared. I won't be the one to do this. That will take care of itself if this is what review sites find. What I want is this to be tested.
You should have zero problem with this. Just like ICDP shouldn't and many other thread crappers here. I mean, you say you don't oppose this test, but yet you all go on and on about why it shouldn't be done. It's self conflicting and self defeating.

"So this blanket statement that nVidia is smoother than AMD is taking a limited scenario and trying to spin it into nVidia being smoother period."

See? Thou dost protest (along with many other AMD proponents here) way the H too much. <-- Pun

Just let it happen. What do you have to lose?

 

[3DVagabond]

Well, sort of. I suspect that the Never Settle drivers may have sacrificed even more latency or smoothness of gameplay (Microstutter across multi GPU and single GPU systems alike? If you will? ) for dramatic increase in framerates for their lineup of products.
I asked Ryan if he could conduct the experiment. It seems he will not until he feels he has the proper tools to do so, and mentions this will be sooner than later. That's fine. I also encourage all those who belong to other forums on other review sites to inquire about this sort of experiment. PM your admin or if you know who the editors are, PM them and ask if they are interested in this "potential" issue.
Like I said, it could prove to be nothing or it could be a real issue.

@3DVagabond. You are scared to death, judging by your posts, that I'll make a battle cry across the Interwebs that even though AMD has higher framerates, this means nothing as their gameplay isn't as smooth as competing Nvidia GPUs at even much lower framerate scenarios.

Dude, don't be scared. I won't be the one to do this. That will take care of itself if this is what review sites find. What I want is this to be tested.
You should have zero problem with this. Just like ICDP shouldn't and many other thread crappers here. I mean, you say you don't oppose this test, but yet you all go on and on about why it shouldn't be done. It's self conflicting and self defeating.

"So this blanket statement that nVidia is smoother than AMD is taking a limited scenario and trying to spin it into nVidia being smoother period."

See? Thou dost protest (along with many other AMD proponents here) way the H too much. <-- Pun

Just let it happen. What do you have to lose?

Scared? What have I got to be scared of? I have no personal interest or affiliation with either of these companies. You're delusional if you see fear in my posts. I just call it like I see it. You're twisting the facts to fit your agenda. Then you try and villainize anyone who sees through what you are doing.

 

[Grooveriding]

Comparisons of SLI/CF microstutter have been going on for a while and plenty of review sites have said something one way or the other on them.

The spin and fabrication that single gpu cards from AMD are exhibiting stutter and their superior performance is coming at that cost is just nvidia focus group FUD and trolling. Single GPU does not use AFR, there is no microstutter.

There is nothing evidencing any of that in the slightest apart from someone trying to claim they 'suspect' something like that with zero evidence and no personal technical knowledge that would allow them to formulate a suspicion.

I would suggest not feeding the trolling. Not the first time we've seen threads created like this that amounted to outright trolling based around suspicions and FUD.

 

[lavaheadache]

I really don't think they are going to find any latency issue with the single card solutions but I'm all for an official test.

 

[ICDP]

Comparisons of SLI/CF microstutter have been going on for a while and plenty of review sites have said something one way or the other on them.

The spin and fabrication that single gpu cards from AMD are exhibiting stutter and their superior performance is coming at that cost is just nvidia focus group FUD and trolling. Single GPU does not use AFR, there is no microstutter.

There is nothing evidencing any of that in the slightest apart from someone trying to claim they 'suspect' something like that with zero evidence and no personal technical knowledge that would allow them to formulate a suspicion.

I would suggest not feeding the trolling. Not the first time we've seen threads created like this that amounted to outright trolling based around suspicions and FUD.

Wise advice. The OPs 1st post is a subtle spin to fabricate FUD based on one single TR review. Attempting to lump single GPU AMD cards into a "they are faster but not smoother" argument is pure BS. The OP is a Nvidia focus group member and it is part of his job is to go around claiming the opposition is sub-standard.

 

[NIGELG]

I wonder if the OP will run to ABT and cry about this 'AMD Shill infested forum' or ask them to investigate these allegations.

I reiterate....more credible sites will investigate if this is an issue.

 

[Keysplayr]

I really don't think they are going to find any latency issue with the single card solutions but I'm all for an official test.

Exactly!

 

[Keysplayr]

I wonder if the OP will run to ABT and cry about this 'AMD Shill infested forum' or ask them to investigate these allegations.

I reiterate....more credible sites will investigate if this is an issue.

They already know Nigel. :thumbsup:

 

[NIGELG]

They already know Nigel. :thumbsup:

Cool...looking forward to you thrashing ATF members there.

Will they investigate this issue,though?

 

[Keysplayr]

Cool...looking forward to you thrashing ATF members there.

Will they investigate this issue,though?

Maybe. Join and ask.

 

[Keysplayr]

Wise advice. The OPs 1st post is a subtle spin to fabricate FUD based on one single TR review. Attempting to lump single GPU AMD cards into a "they are faster but not smoother" argument is pure BS. The OP is a Nvidia focus group member and it is part of his job is to go around claiming the opposition is sub-standard.

The OP's first post is a request for Ryan Smith to undertake an experiment.

This persons post is trying to make it look like something it isn't.

Fight it, or not. Makes no difference to me. It's still happening despite your very stern opposition. I still can't imagine why you wouldn't want to know one way or the other. Don't you like Knowledge? Or would you like to remain ignorant of information that could shed some light on this?

You can try to make it look like I'm marketing Nvidia all you want. I don't care. It has no effect. Bring it. More more more.
But in the end, all I really want, as do many other here, is this to be tested and examined thoroughly by a few more sites willing to offer a fair and balanced review of this.

 

[NIGELG]

Maybe. Join and ask.

Nah...I don't like being accused of being an AMD shill.That Appooppin guy is too obsessed with what's going on here.He should let go.But I am a loyal lurker on ABT.

I see Appoppin is as it again....lol.Saying Hi to me after talking about AMD damage control and shills while his forum is TRULY a ghost town.

I welcome investigations from more websites if this is such a big issue.

 

[SirPauly]

So this blanket statement that nVidia is smoother than AMD is taking a limited scenario and trying to spin it into nVidia being smoother period.

You get all this for asking for investigations on smoothness over-all? How about offering raw frame-rate and more detailed data on smoothness factors. Been asking for this since the introduction of AFR being compared to single GPU's. Both single and multi-GPU investigations would be welcomed.

 

[Keysplayr]

I welcome investigations from more websites if this is such a big issue.

Congratulations. This should have been your one and only post in this thread. Welcome!

 

[SirPauly]

Attempting to lump single GPU AMD cards into a "they are faster but not smoother" argument is pure BS.

Not according to TechReport's findings -- one can dismiss it -- attack the web-site -- attack the messengers -- but one can ask for more investigations based on the surprising results from the specific site and other web-sites.