Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

[Siberian]

Now that the cat is out of the bag, AMD will have to decide what is more important. Is a benchmark score more important than a smoothe gaming experience?

 

[Zanovar]

 

[Lepton87]

Now that the cat is out of the bag, AMD will have to decide what is more important. Is a benchmark score more important than a smoothe gaming experience?

Do you really believe that a lot of enthusiast and gamers were using stuttering cards for 8+ years and didn't notice it until now?
My first ATI card was Radeon 8500 and if the frame rates were high enough I didn't complain about smoothness. Then I had 9500pro, X800XT,7900GTO,8800GTS 512 and all of those cards delivered smooth gaming experience provided the fps were right. I have no brand loyalty and switched between vendors numerous times, always getting the fastest card or the best value. Brand loyalty when it comes to computer hardware is retarded from my point of view. The very worst thing for my gaming experience was the switch from super fast no ghosting CRT monitors to ghost monsters LCDs. The first LCDs were just awful in that regard and I was stupid enough to be an early adopter. After some time I concluded that it wasn't possible to game on my first LCD monitor even though it cost close to 1000$, so I ended up buying a CRT monitor and switched between them depending on what I was doing.

 

[Final8ty]

LOL indeed.

And you can see what type of people that NV marketing attracts.

 

[Zanovar]

LOL indeed.

And you can see what type of people that NV marketing attracts.

would nvidia marketing employ him?,hes fucking crazy,excuse my french.

 

[chimaxi83]

Free marketing, regardless of mental capacity (or lack thereof), is still free.

 

[Zanovar]

Free marketing, regardless of mental capacity (or lack thereof), is still free.

hahah

 

[Siberian]

Insults only strengthen my position and weaken yours.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Slower but smoother, where have I heard that before?

 

[Zanovar]

Insults only strengthen my position and weaken yours.

Chill mate only messing with ya

 

[Lepton87]

Slower but smoother, where have I heard that before?

I heard slower and more gentle.

 

[3DVagabond]

Slower but smoother, where have I heard that before?

Yes, and size doesn't matter.

 

[3DVagabond]

While knowledge is good, partial or incomplete information is often very misleading. It is far better to design a circuit that is capable than to apply signal processing afterwards to try and fix it's shortcomings.

I recall the THD (total harmonic distortion) wars in hifi amplifiers. Companies would use massive amounts of corrective feedback to "clean up" the signal and in the process destroy the harmonic structure of the sound. The worst thing that ever happened was people believing that an amplifier with .003% THD was going to sound "cleaner" just because of that spec than a well engineered amp that ran at .1% THD without any signal processing.

Is the latency that's introduced to smooth the frame delivery going to do more to destroy the fidelity of the video signal than the supposed benefit?

 

[blastingcap]

While knowledge is good, partial or incomplete information is often very misleading. It is far better to design a circuit that is capable than to apply signal processing afterwards to try and fix it's shortcomings.

I recall the THD (total harmonic distortion) wars in hifi amplifiers. Companies would use massive amounts of corrective feedback to "clean up" the signal and in the process destroy the harmonic structure of the sound. The worst thing that ever happened was people believing that an amplifier with .003% THD was going to sound "cleaner" just because of that spec than a well engineered amp that ran at .1% THD without any signal processing.

Is the latency that's introduced to smooth the frame delivery going to do more to destroy the fidelity of the video signal than the supposed benefit?

I do not see the harm in giving people the option to smooth or unsmooth as they see fit. Toggle on and off.

 

[MrK6]

Is the latency that's introduced to smooth the frame delivery going to do more to destroy the fidelity of the video signal than the supposed benefit?

The thing is it's already there. That's why microstutter exists, because the true framerate is different from the reported framerate, due to the asynchronous display of frames. Capping FPS simply limits the disparity and therefore lessens microstutter, but you're really not losing much.

 

[3DVagabond]

The thing is it's already there. That's why microstutter exists, because the true framerate is different from the reported framerate, due to the asynchronous display of frames. Capping FPS simply limits the disparity and therefore lessens microstutter, but you're really not losing much.

I'm not saying that signal processing is bad by definition. Just that you have to look at what else is introduced besides one measurement. Especially a measurement that hasn't even been proven to have any effect on the end process. What we see on screen.

 

[Lepton87]

the true framerate is different from the reported framerate, due to the asynchronous display of frames.

That's just illogical statement. The whole issue stems from the fact that frames are measured per second. For example if your video cards deliver 60 frames per second, but they deliver 50 frames in the first 500 ms and then 10 frames in the rest of the second then it won't be smooth but the FPS measure would be still true.

 

[MrK6]

I'm not saying that signal processing is bad by definition. Just that you have to look at what else is introduced besides one measurement. Especially a measurement that hasn't even been proven to have any effect on the end process. What we see on screen.

Well I think that's at least a two fold problem. One, you have to make sure your measurement is proper (both in what it's measuring and in it's accuracy). Two, you have to make sure your measuring isn't affecting the whole process. I've wondered how much FRAPS does affect the cards themselves.

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this video yet, but it's a good start for where proper testing would be going: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOtre2f4qZs . I'm not sure if one could construct a setup fast enough to detect differences among different hardware configurations, but it would be interesting.

That's just illogical statement. The whole issue stems from the fact that frames are measured per second. For example if your video cards deliver 60 frames per second, but they deliver 50 frames in the first 500 ms and then 10 frames in the rest of the second then it won't be smooth but the FPS measure would be still true.

It looks to me like you said the same thing I did; I'm not sure why you disagree. However, that example really doesn't convey what's happening. If you look at frametime graphs for dual-GPU setups, you'll see a familiar plain sawtooth pattern. Generally there's a staccato rhythm of the first frame followed quickly by the second frame with a longer break before the third and fourth frames repeat the cycle etc. The longer break between the second and third frame are what your eyes pick up and make the FPS "feel slower" than the average FPS, since the average is inflated by the shorter period between the first and second frame (or third and fourth, etc.). Adding more GPU's tends to break down the longer frame time as it's more evenly dispersed over the cycle. Through a different metric, but to a similar effect, running a frame cap prevents the spikes of shorter frametimes between the first and second frame, etc., and smooths out the FPS.

 

[3DVagabond]

If you look at frametime graphs for dual-GPU setups...

The OP makes no mention of dual GPU. Keys has raised the possibility that it's due to the 12.11 drivers giving up smoothness for performance. Previously he put forth the notion that the 12.11 drivers were compromising IQ, possibly with AA, or some other way, to improve performance. This thread is just a continuing FUD campaign trying to discredit AMD cards because they are out performing nVidia cards.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The OP makes no mention of dual GPU. Keys has raised the possibility that it's due to the 12.11 drivers giving up smoothness for performance. Previously he put forth the notion that the 12.11 drivers were compromising IQ, possibly with AA, or some other way, to improve performance. This thread is just a continuing FUD campaign trying to discredit AMD cards because they are out performing nVidia cards.

this post id FUD.
Since no data is available...you make the same flaws, you accuse keys of...nice own goal.

 

[wand3r3r]

this post id FUD.
Since no data is available...you make the same flaws, you accuse keys of...nice own goal.

Whether or not this is true is up to the OP to prove with evidence or it is just another smear attempt by a paid nv promoter.

 

[Final8ty]

this post id FUD.
Since no data is available...you make the same flaws, you accuse keys of...nice own goal.

There is no before and now data with the same setup and OS for Keysplayr to come to such a notion that smoothness has got worse in the first place or he would of put it forwards just like RS would of, in fact even i would of made more of an effort.

He doesn't even need to ask others to investigate because he would just give us the links to the before and now data with the same setup that he got the possibility from, then we could go hmmm he may have a point, lets investigate further.

 

[3DVagabond]

this post id FUD.
Since no data is available...you make the same flaws, you accuse keys of...nice own goal.

What? I think something got lost in the translation. I can't make anything out of what you said. Except that you disagree with me.

 

[Keysplayr]

The OP makes no mention of dual GPU. Keys has raised the possibility that it's due to the 12.11 drivers giving up smoothness for performance. Previously he put forth the notion that the 12.11 drivers were compromising IQ, possibly with AA, or some other way, to improve performance. This thread is just a continuing FUD campaign trying to discredit AMD cards because they are out performing nVidia cards.

Shall I make it clear to you so that you don't have any context to twist any longer?

In light of H and TR's findings, (which cover BOTH multi GPU and Single GPU), and we all know what those findings are, I have asked Ryan Smith if he could undertake an investigation on this potential issue.
I have speculated on what could be causing the phenomena that TR and H had encountered. Framerate at the expense of latency/smoothness/microstutter. Could be the Never Settle drivers (12.11) that really amplified this and why we are hearing about this more.

Now, I want all the attackers/crappers in this thread to understand something. You, attacking me, my character, accusing me of agendas and motives WILL NOT make any of this go away. EVER. Until it is done. The more you fight it the more I am fueled to find out the truth and NOW, I'm even willing to spread my request to any and all review sites that I can.
So have at it boys. My fuel seems to be in unlimited supply and endlessly renewable.

 

[3DVagabond]

Shall I make it clear to you so that you don't have any context to twist any longer?

In light of H and TR's findings, (which cover BOTH multi GPU and Single GPU), and we all know what those findings are, I have asked Ryan Smith if he could undertake an investigation on this potential issue.
I have speculated on what could be causing the phenomena that TR and H had encountered. Framerate at the expense of latency/smoothness/microstutter. Could be the Never Settle drivers (12.11) that really amplified this and why we are hearing about this more.

Now, I want all the attackers/crappers in this thread to understand something. You, attacking me, my character, accusing me of agendas and motives WILL NOT make any of this go away. EVER. Until it is done. The more you fight it the more I am fueled to find out the truth and NOW, I'm even willing to spread my request to any and all review sites that I can.
So have at it boys. My fuel seems to be in unlimited supply and endlessly renewable.

No attacking you, just what you said and you are the one who twists context. The post you quoted was in response to asking whether I agreed SLI is smoother than crossfire. I pointed out to him that you made no mention of dual GPU's. You have just confirmed that you were not referring to dual GPU only. Maybe everyone will understand that now.

Your motives are clear and you had all the motivation you needed before anything I said. Play the victim though if you want to.