ZeroIQ
I am going to do something that I don't do very often and that is take back my statements. That job may be the best place for you at this point. If you can get some experience as well as the degrees then you will be more marketable. so there i said i may have jumped to conclusions about your situation too fast. I tend to do that sometimes.
But I would challenge you that there are companies (a lot of them) that are willing to take on a 19 year old with no degree. That has been the little secret of the IT realm for a long time (although it is getting harder) is that if you have a passion for this kind of work, can stay on the cutting edge and kick ass in the development environment you can pretty much write your own ticket.
The degrees will mater once you get into the management side of the work (if that is what you are shouting for) but for alot of hard core techies management just ain't in the cards....
I just wanted to point out don't sell yourself short on the age and non degree thing.
the job market is what you make of it. Mold it to what you want it to be.
-fish
ironically heres an article on MSN thats on their home page today...
http://msn.careerbuilder.com/c...b7bba49-237986228-RP-4
You want a raise
Self-audit: Before rushing to your boss and demanding a bump in pay, it's important that you build a case for why you deserve increased compensation. Prepare a list of recent accomplishments that show how you've helped increase profits, improved efficiencies or saved costs to support your cause. Be as specific as possible. If you're in sales, for example, note your year-over-year account comparisons, quarterly highlights and client wins.
Comparison shop: Also find out how much other individuals with your qualifications are being paid in the local market. Many career Web sites, professional associations and staffing services such as Robert Half International publish information about current compensation trends.
Timing is everything: It's also necessary to choose the right time to speak with your manager. Make sure the company can afford to offer raises, that it hasn't recently announced layoffs, for example, and when setting up the meeting, let your supervisor know what you want to discuss so he or she is not caught off guard.
Be professional: Lastly, during the meeting, keep the conversation friendly, even if you two don't see eye-to-eye. After all, in the end, the discussion is between two colleagues working on a single problem: how best to reward your hard work.
http://msn.careerbuilder.com/c...b7bba49-237986228-RP-4
You want a raise
Self-audit: Before rushing to your boss and demanding a bump in pay, it's important that you build a case for why you deserve increased compensation. Prepare a list of recent accomplishments that show how you've helped increase profits, improved efficiencies or saved costs to support your cause. Be as specific as possible. If you're in sales, for example, note your year-over-year account comparisons, quarterly highlights and client wins.
Comparison shop: Also find out how much other individuals with your qualifications are being paid in the local market. Many career Web sites, professional associations and staffing services such as Robert Half International publish information about current compensation trends.
Timing is everything: It's also necessary to choose the right time to speak with your manager. Make sure the company can afford to offer raises, that it hasn't recently announced layoffs, for example, and when setting up the meeting, let your supervisor know what you want to discuss so he or she is not caught off guard.
Be professional: Lastly, during the meeting, keep the conversation friendly, even if you two don't see eye-to-eye. After all, in the end, the discussion is between two colleagues working on a single problem: how best to reward your hard work.
Don't demand a raise, that's rude and immature. In fact, you would show that you obviously don't understand business practice, business relations, professional courtesy, and professional communication, which are all important aspects to [enter job description here] and therefore are grounds for termination. If you are unhappy then move on and find a new job. You are a professional so act like one.
Originally posted by: FoBoT
sure, if you like the job and company, ask for anything
but if they don't respond in a reasonable fashion to a reasonable request (i.e. if you ask for something unreasonable, don't expect anything) then they must not think you are as valuable as you do
this is what i don't get, people that get an "average" rating year after year they, get the average raise, year after year
yet they don't ask the boss what they need to do (or just figure it out themselves) to be a top performer to get the top raises
why would the company give an average guy an above average raise?
you need to show your boss how you "Added value" to the business and then they'll understand why you should get the "big bucks"
good luck OP :sun: :moon: :clock:
In my experience, it's usually the average guys that have the big chip on their shoulder and think their underpaid. People that excel at their work are usually noticed, and they know that they are noticed. Most the ranting I see around this forum about being underappreciated is from PC tech support people. I got news for them. PC Tech support people are a dime a dozen. It doesnt matter if you have 10yrs experience, your still a dime a dozen, so dont expect to ever be paid a high wage. I guess they feel really smart and high valued because the users they deal with on a daily basis are complete idiots.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
I don't know of many supervisors capable of even addressing those concerns. Also you views on that the employee 'owes you' since they knocked on your door is laughable. Most of the time higher level people are contacted by those that find their resumes through recruiters/word of mouth. Your analogy is akin to me walking into a car dealership and telling them to get bent over their invoice pricing; if they want to sell me the car here is $50 bucks and I want it detailed and delivered.
Employment changes...I was hired at one rate for a set of responsibilities. Those responsibilities grew as did my salary.
In today's market depending on what sector you work, you will either be graced with a stream of raises regularly or have to chomp at the bit for them. Usually when I have to go to the table I am asking for more than what I would have expected since now I have to work extra for it and chances are the next one will be the same way.
All in all though threatening off the bat is bad news. First if they absolutely have to have you (this is rare) then they more than likely will meet your needs until they can replace you.
Now if it comes down to them not being able/wanting to meet your demands and you know you have employment at that rate elsewhere (assuming the full packages are equal as hourly wage/salary is really not the biggest part of a package at higher levels)..then you'd be an idiot to stay and they'd be idiots to think you would.
At that stages it's best to agree on a exit strategy that makes everyone at least 'ok'.
If when all is said and done and you feel secure in your ability to find employment elsewhere should they tell you that the cannot or will not listen to your requests at all, then it is absolutely fair to tell them that you will have to look for work elsewhere. Just don't be shocked should they terminate you immediately.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
Toilets need to be cleaned everywhere apparently and someone supervises it.
Wrong...people change as do jobs, it is both parties problem.
Wow just wow on those brainstorms. A large portion of the world's workforce would be out seeking new employment if answering 'yes' to anyone of the above dictated that.
Jobs should never be about maintaining good references or needing to go back to them. You usually don't want to burn any bridges as even if that employer is one you'd never go back to; everyone talks or knows someone else. Kissing ass just to keep up a good reference should you even have too/or get asked to leave is ridiculous.
A job can be about security, but that is a terrible reason just to stay with a job...but like many in bad relationships that is what they go with.
A job should be about satisfaction...plain and simple. One should be satisfied with the pay they are recieving and the work they are doing. For some that satisfaction comes with more pay vs work happiness and others more work happiness vs pay. Usually even with this, you will be overworked at times, you will have situations where you thought compensation would be awarded differently and there will be times when you are simply hot in the market and get contacted to jump ship.
All that said, there are plenty that barely work everyday, have a million resumes out there with nothing to say and have simply no game. They just tread through their lives thinking there is not upward mobility for anyone. There are also those that are so hot, they dictate exactly what they want and when they want it. They jump ship usually at the first opportunity for more money despite any projects left unfinished. Employers usually know this picking them up...but they produce and that's what some need.
RadiclDreamer
Diamond Member
- Aug 8, 2004
- 8,622
- 40
- 91
If you came to me with an ultimatum, ESPECIALLY as a contractor, I'd fire you on general principal.
some people are overreacting to wheezer's post... i agree with his statement that you shouldn't threaten off the bat as it's a rather rude business practice and that the right thing to do is negotiate. however you have to come up with LEVERAGE if you're going to negotiate...
do you have a job waiting on the side?
do you 'own' something that few others have knowledge of?
are you a superstar of some sort?
etc.
do you have a job waiting on the side?
do you 'own' something that few others have knowledge of?
are you a superstar of some sort?
etc.
He may sound like a prick, but that IS the way it works. Wheezer knows he can be easily replaced, so he demands the best from his people. Because his performance is on the line just as staff is.
I was called a troll earlier, but that is the flat out truth. Anybody can be replaced no matter what their level. It's just business. Seriously, it's just business. Learn to play or don't play the game.
I just approached my boss today to express interest in getting picked up full time. I started 2 months ago as a contractor as a Help Desk person assisting the system administrator. Well the system admin left last week and now i'm the only IT guy trying to keep things running.
I didnt say i would quit or anything but I am the ONLY IT guy in the office for 50+people and the boss man asked me what i expected for a salary. I replied that i wasnt sure yet and that i only want a fair value. Boss man then throws out some numbers like 25k, 28k..
LOL should i quit?
I'm a college graduate with 3 years of technical experience.. just not any major systems administration which i hope to get into.
I didnt say i would quit or anything but I am the ONLY IT guy in the office for 50+people and the boss man asked me what i expected for a salary. I replied that i wasnt sure yet and that i only want a fair value. Boss man then throws out some numbers like 25k, 28k..
LOL should i quit?
I'm a college graduate with 3 years of technical experience.. just not any major systems administration which i hope to get into.
What qualifications do you have? What does the company need? Can you offer it to them? What is the median salary for your position? Do you want a position change?
Get all your ducks in a row, then go talk to him. It seems as if they need you. I'm a HS graduate, and I'll be making close to twice what your boss offered come January. Of course our needs are different and we have more people... but that doesn't make your position any less important.
Sounds like you're in a sweet spot right now, IMO.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
You do realize that loyalty to a company is dead in this day and age, right? You will lose the skilled people and retain those that know that they are so lousy at their job that they can't get a job anyplace else.
In short, as an employer the only one you are screwing is yourself.
The problem Wheezer did not address is what if this person has been with you for 10 years and has not received many if any raises in those 10 years. Sure 10 years ago the terms of our agreement were fine, but they might not be adequate any longer.
AS far as the tone and method. I too agree you never go in and give them an ultimatum, but you can try and negotiate first. If you are not happy with the results you then tell your boss thank you, but that still does not meet my needs and put in your 2 week notice.
Honestly with the current corporate america most employers do not realize how valuable you were until you leave. Both my parents have had to leave their jobs for higher paying jobs every 4-7 years just to receive decent pay increases. Its the current trend in our business world today. No longer do most employers hang on to good employees and pay them well. They would rather milk you for all you are worth then let you go.
My father for example is an engineer. He had to leave his job with a fortune 500 company for a smaller company because they refused to give him a decent raise. 5 years later he sees his old job posted and the pay range is now 20k more then what he was making. He applied again and got the job. Both my parents have told me the best way to get a raise is always be looking for a new job. Do not screw over your current employer, but always be looking for something better. Corporate America is not going to look out for you so you have to lookout for yourself.
Well said. Remember, the company that you are working for right now was still running before you joined (except if you started it). And it will still be running (if it is profitable) long after you are gone.
Each and everyone is replaceable. Everyone and that includes the owners, presidents etc. etc. What if you die all of a sudden ? the company will still run. Quitting from the company is no different.
People just think that they have become too important. Remember, the world has been going on for tons of years and I am sure that it has tons more for sure. Businesses were running long ago, they are still running and they will continue to run. Its only the people and faces that change over time.
I am probably going to fire a person this week or next week at my business. Why ? He thinks that he deserves more $$$ (he was telling my manager that he should get a raise) while in reality, he is my worst employee on my list. Better to let that person go.
Such is the Corportate/Business world (doesnt matter if you are working at min. wage at Fast Food Restaurant or you are some experienced senior level tech at a multi-billion dollar company).
That part is not always true. My mother used to run a medical facility. After she left the facility had to hire 2 people to do her job, and even then they began to lose money. Some people are just good at their jobs. The problem is most corporate america supervisors do not realize how important and key those people were until they leave. In my mother's case her boss called her up 4 months later and offered her old job back with a 30k raise. She refused because she had enrolled in school, but she did agree to contract work with them to help them get things running right again.
yes, in some cases, the business (and the owner) will go through troubles when they let someone go (like in the case of your mother).
Same thing happened with my mother. She was running a place perfectly for over 8 years. And then one day, the owner came and insulted her infront of junior employees and told her to leave. She left the workplace and never looked back. 2 weeks later, the owner was literally pleading my mother to come back and join but she refused. Less than a year later, that business was sold to someone else, BUT, from what I have heard last, the new owner is running the business (not as good as my mom used to run it but it is getting back there).
So yes, there might be hard times in some cases, but again, Everyone is replaceable. I am running 2 businesses right now but what if I die tomorrow ? There are many things in my business that only I know how to do (I keep thinking that I need to train atleast one other person (just in case) so that he/she knows everything but I dont have the time to train yet
)Originally posted by: gsethi
yes, in some cases, the business (and the owner) will go through troubles when they let someone go (like in the case of your mother).
Same thing happened with my mother. She was running a place perfectly for over 8 years. And then one day, the owner came and insulted her infront of junior employees and told her to leave. She left the workplace and never looked back. 2 weeks later, the owner was literally pleading my mother to come back and join but she refused. Less than a year later, that business was sold to someone else, BUT, from what I have heard last, the new owner is running the business (not as good as my mom used to run it but it is getting back there).
So yes, there might be hard times in some cases, but again, Everyone is replaceable. I am running 2 businesses right now but what if I die tomorrow ? There are many things in my business that only I know how to do (I keep thinking that I need to train atleast one other person (just in case) so that he/she knows everything but I dont have the time to train yet
My point was that a lot of business people today take the initial short-sided cheap route, and it actually ends up costing them more money then if they had just given a good worker a raise. I know for a fact the medical facility my mother managed still today is not profitable, but when she managed it they were. That was over 5 years ago now. A lot of employers want good people as cheap as possible. That seems to be the mentality today in business. In order to counter act this mind set an employee has to be willing to change jobs, and they have to always be looking for something better.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
You are going to bring in someone new, a man you don't really have a clue about, you'll have to spend time training this person for his job, he may not fit in with the rest of the staff and so on and so forth.
The cost of hiring is VERY high initially and chances are that if he's any good at his job and you treat him like Wheezer treats his employees he will be gone before he's done enough work to make up for that cost.
Let's not be stupid about this, we ALL know that it is the good workers that carry the company on their shoulders and if a company has someone willing to fire people because of their attitude even if they do a great job then that company is going to go down.
The cost of hiring is VERY high initially and chances are that if he's any good at his job and you treat him like Wheezer treats his employees he will be gone before he's done enough work to make up for that cost.
Let's not be stupid about this, we ALL know that it is the good workers that carry the company on their shoulders and if a company has someone willing to fire people because of their attitude even if they do a great job then that company is going to go down.
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