Ashes of the Singularity User Benchmarks Thread

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Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
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I didn't think what I posted was too complicated but i guess I should have bet on someone getting confused.

It will be okay as long as you don't twist my words.



The 980 uses 22% more power in dx12 while the 290x goes up 18%.

In dx11 the 290x uses 8% more power than the 980
In dx12 it uses 5% more.

Not really shocking or anything

Those were system power consumption numbers. Considering both GPUs use at least 150W, it seemed odd when I looked it over a second time. the 290x should be close to 200W at least, so the rest of the system is using so low?

Maybe the CPU is not stressed
 

pejx

Junior Member
May 31, 2014
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Has anyone tested 2x 980/980ti on this in SLI? (or whatever the DX12 equivalent of SLI is). Could you have one of the cards running in Compute mode?
 
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Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
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Love it when devs provide more information so we don't go out speculating till the world ends. post from Oxide on ocn

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/...ingularity-dx12-benchmarks/1210#post_24357053

AFAIK, Maxwell doesn't support Async Compute, at least not natively. We disabled it at the request of Nvidia, as it was much slower to try to use it then to not.

Weather or not Async Compute is better or not is subjective, but it definitely does buy some performance on AMD's hardware. Whether it is the right architectural decision for Maxwell, or is even relevant to it's scheduler is hard to say.

the above was posted after the below. The benchmark does not run asynchronous shaders on nvidia hardware and nvidia requested it turned off when running on their hardware "as it was much slower to try to use it then to not."

More said on whether its a good choice on nvidia hardware

http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/...ingularity-dx12-benchmarks/1200#post_24356995

Wow, there are lots of posts here, so I'll only respond to the last one. The interest in this subject is higher then we thought. The primary evolution of the benchmark is for our own internal testing, so it's pretty important that it be representative of the gameplay. To keep things clean, I'm not going to make very many comments on the concept of bias and fairness, as it can completely go down a rat hole.

Certainly I could see how one might see that we are working closer with one hardware vendor then the other, but the numbers don't really bare that out. Since we've started, I think we've had about 3 site visits from NVidia, 3 from AMD, and 2 from Intel ( and 0 from Microsoft, but they never come visit anyone ;(). Nvidia was actually a far more active collaborator over the summer then AMD was, If you judged from email traffic and code-checkins, you'd draw the conclusion we were working closer with Nvidia rather than AMD ;) As you've pointed out, there does exist a marketing agreement between Stardock (our publisher) for Ashes with AMD. But this is typical of almost every major PC game I've ever worked on (Civ 5 had a marketing agreement with NVidia, for example). Without getting into the specifics, I believe the primary goal of AMD is to promote D3D12 titles as they have also lined up a few other D3D12 games.

If you use this metric, however, given Nvidia's promotions with Unreal (and integration with Gameworks) you'd have to say that every Unreal game is biased, not to mention virtually every game that's commonly used as a benchmark since most of them have a promotion agreement with someone. Certainly, one might argue that Unreal being an engine with many titles should give it particular weight, and I wouldn't disagree. However, Ashes is not the only game being developed with Nitrous. It is also being used in several additional titles right now, the only announced one being the Star Control reboot. (Which I am super excited about! But that's a completely other topic ;)).

Personally, I think one could just as easily make the claim that we were biased toward Nvidia as the only 'vendor' specific code is for Nvidia where we had to shutdown async compute. By vendor specific, I mean a case where we look at the Vendor ID and make changes to our rendering path. Curiously, their driver reported this feature was functional but attempting to use it was an unmitigated disaster in terms of performance and conformance so we shut it down on their hardware. As far as I know, Maxwell doesn't really have Async Compute so I don't know why their driver was trying to expose that. The only other thing that is different between them is that Nvidia does fall into Tier 2 class binding hardware instead of Tier 3 like AMD which requires a little bit more CPU overhead in D3D12, but I don't think it ended up being very significant. This isn't a vendor specific path, as it's responding to capabilities the driver reports.

From our perspective, one of the surprising things about the results is just how good Nvidia's DX11 perf is. But that's a very recent development, with huge CPU perf improvements over the last month. Still, DX12 CPU overhead is still far far better on Nvidia, and we haven't even tuned it as much as DX11. The other surprise is that of the min frame times having the 290X beat out the 980 Ti (as reported on Ars Techinica). Unlike DX11, minimum frame times are mostly an application controlled feature so I was expecting it to be close to identical. This would appear to be GPU side variance, rather then software variance. We'll have to dig into this one.

I suspect that one thing that is helping AMD on GPU performance is D3D12 exposes Async Compute, which D3D11 did not. Ashes uses a modest amount of it, which gave us a noticeable perf improvement. It was mostly opportunistic where we just took a few compute tasks we were already doing and made them asynchronous, Ashes really isn't a poster-child for advanced GCN features.

Our use of Async Compute, however, pales with comparisons to some of the things which the console guys are starting to do. Most of those haven't made their way to the PC yet, but I've heard of developers getting 30% GPU performance by using Async Compute. Too early to tell, of course, but it could end being pretty disruptive in a year or so as these GCN built and optimized engines start coming to the PC. I don't think Unreal titles will show this very much though, so likely we'll have to wait to see. Has anyone profiled Ark yet?

In the end, I think everyone has to give AMD alot of credit for not objecting to our collaborative effort with Nvidia even though the game had a marketing deal with them. They never once complained about it, and it certainly would have been within their right to do so. (Complain, anyway, we would have still done it, ;))

--
P.S. There is no war of words between us and Nvidia. Nvidia made some incorrect statements, and at this point they will not dispute our position if you ask their PR. That is, they are not disputing anything in our blog. I believe the initial confusion was because Nvidia PR was putting pressure on us to disable certain settings in the benchmark, when we refused, I think they took it a little too personally.

Figured it could lean further in AMDs favor and if it's only just a bit of compute they are using and others gain much more, good things to come.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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This is the first time a major dev studio has come out and say flat out that NV GPUs cannot do async compute. Other devs have been hush on the issue and NV themselves haven't demoed any async shader features of DX12.

I suspected as such from the start due to their uarch having 1 engine with support for queues, which works great in a serial API like DX11, but a single pipeline that tries to do graphics & compute at the same time incur a penalty/overhead for context switching.

Async Compute/Shaders needs multiple independent engines like GCN's CP + ACEs.

It also means NV is fubar when it comes to VR until Pascal.

ofc. There's the possibility Oxide is lying... ;)
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
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:) I don't think they're lying. I've had a fruitful debate with Razor1 over at hard forums. We're both quite knowledgeable and in the end the conclusion was that since there's no "checking for errors" on the nVIDIA Asynchronous Warp Schedulers they cannot perform "Out of Order". The end result would be a pipeline stall due to dependencies. This results in lower performance. Just as I had stipulated in my original posts (HardOCP and Overclock.net) and what Oxide confirmed.

The entire conversation can be read here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1873640

This prompted Oxide to respond and confirm what I was thinking.

Anandtech should edit their article on Asynchronous Shading and remove the statement which says "nVIDIA can do this too". They don't appear to be able to perform Async Compute without hampering performance.

DX12 will, as I initially thought, turn the tides towards GCN for the time being. As far as going forward. We will see if Pascal comes with improved Async capabilities or if this will come with Volta. As for Greenland, we already have an idea of what to expect in DX12 titles.

On a sidenote....

We, as a PC Gaming community, really need to fight all of this partisanship. We ought to encourage critical thinking rather than accept marketing claims by the large tech Corporations. We should encourage research and scientific queries rather than bash one another over Green vs. Red.

If I was able to deduce this result from a little bit of research on GPU architectures, imagine what we could do as a community?

Peace.
 
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littleg

Senior member
Jul 9, 2015
355
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:) I don't think they're lying. I've had a fruitful debate with Razor1 over at hard forums. We're both quite knowledgeable and in the end the conclusion was that since there's no "checking for errors" on the nVIDIA Asynchronous Warp Schedulers they cannot perform "Out of Order". The end result would be a pipeline stall due to dependencies. This results in lower performance. Just as I had stipulated in my original posts (HardOCP and Overclock.net) and what Oxide confirmed.

The entire conversation can be read here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1873640

This prompted Oxide to respond and confirm what I was thinking.

Anandtech should edit their article on Asynchronous Shading and remove the statement which says "nVIDIA can do this too". They don't appear to be able to perform Async Compute without hampering performance.

DX12 will, as I initially thought, turn the tides towards GCN for the time being. As far as going forward. We will see if Pascal comes with improved Async capabilities or if this will come with Volta. As for Greenland, we already have an idea of what to expect in DX12 titles.

On a sidenote....

We, as a PC Gaming community, really need to fight all of this partisanship. We ought to encourage critical thinking rather than accept marketing claims by the large tech Corporations. We should encourage research and scientific queries rather than bash one another over Green vs. Red.

If I was able to deduce this result from a little bit of research on GPU architectures, imagine what we could do as a community?

Peace.

Really enjoy reading your posts, always very insightful and englightening.

Totally agree with the bolded part Always puzzles me how some seem to become so emotionally invested in what is, at the end of the day, just another business with whom their only relationship is as a customer.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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We, as a PC Gaming community, really need to fight all of this partisanship. We ought to encourage critical thinking rather than accept marketing claims by the large tech Corporations. We should encourage research and scientific queries rather than bash one another over Green vs. Red.

If I was able to deduce this result from a little bit of research on GPU architectures, imagine what we could do as a community?

Peace.

People have attacked me in this very thread & others when it comes to discussing DX12 and different uarch potential. I go to the source info where possible, they use ad hominem against me.

A lot of it is troll baiting and I do fall for it (lots of infractions in recent times lol).

Ryan Smith's DX12 Async Compute article is still wrong, the chart is wrong and the explanation is wrong.

Basically the way this pans out, DX12 games can still benefit all hardware, there will/should be toggles in games for graphics settings that utilize async compute so those on lesser hardware can disable it.

The real DX12 battle is still Artic Island vs Pascal, as Oxide have also said the next-gen GPU will be ~200% faster in DX12 than current hardware.

The speculation is now how long ago was NV aware of DX12's high similarities to Mantle, if they knew 4 years ago, its possible Pascal would have been designed to take advantage of DX12 better (more independent engines rather than 1 with more queues). If they got caught blindsided, it will be a disruptive time in the GPU market.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
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People have attacked me in this very thread & others when it comes to discussing DX12 and different uarch potential. I go to the source info where possible, they use ad hominem against me.

A lot of it is troll baiting and I do fall for it (lots of infractions in recent times lol).

Ryan Smith's DX12 Async Compute article is still wrong, the chart is wrong and the explanation is wrong.

Basically the way this pans out, DX12 games can still benefit all hardware, there will/should be toggles in games for graphics settings that utilize async compute so those on lesser hardware can disable it.

The real DX12 battle is still Artic Island vs Pascal, as Oxide have also said the next-gen GPU will be ~200% faster in DX12 than current hardware.

The speculation is now how long ago was NV aware of DX12's high similarities to Mantle, if they knew 4 years ago, its possible Pascal would have been designed to take advantage of DX12 better (more independent engines rather than 1 with more queues). If they got caught blindsided, it will be a disruptive time in the GPU market.

In the end, you held your own. I've read all of the posts which followed :)

This could spell one thing... innovation. Disruption always leads to massive amounts of innovation and innovation makes things exciting again. I came back to the PC Gaming arena just in time :)

As for what I've placed in bold. Yep. This needs to be corrected. I wholeheartedly agree.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Really enjoy reading your posts, always very insightful and englightening.

Totally agree with the bolded part Always puzzles me how some seem to become so emotionally invested in what is, at the end of the day, just another business with whom their only relationship is as a customer.

Thank you :) And I like to see I'm not alone in this sentiment :)
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
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This just got a whole lot more interesting. I'm excited to see the DX12 benches.

If AMD truly does have a DX12 advantage, and they can get volume R9 HBM products out between now and Arctic Islands, and have Arctic Islands in late 2016 with HBM2,
that's a decent spot to be.

As long as a LOT of games look like they'll use DX12(and it seems like that may be the case given the strategies in place by MS if I'm not mistaken).

Heh, things may get interesting. I hope they do.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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If I were AMD, I would be pointing out this advantage.

I wonder why they aren't?
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
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There's no way for Oxide to know with absolute certainty whether Maxwell 2 supports asynchronous compute. Only NVidia can confirm whether it does or not.

The fact that it's not currently working in the drivers means nothing, as NVidia still has lots of work to do when it comes to polishing their DX12 driver and that particular feature could not be optimized.

In fact, I linked to a post from sebbi at beyond3d forums where he stated this as one of several possibilities, that asynchronous compute may not even be fully activated yet in the drivers for NVidia, or that AotS does not use asynchronous compute period..

But now we're finding out that it does, and that it was turned off for the NVidia path due to being buggy.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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If I were AMD, I would be pointing out this advantage.

I wonder why they aren't?

It's why AMD has been making loud noises on Async Compute/Shaders, so ofc they have been. Whereas I look at NV's DX12 showcase, they talk about other stuff, like Screen Space Reflection (which is achievable with DX9 [I'm playing Satellite Reign now, with SSR enabled, in DX9, performs well] so not sure why they mentioned it), and Volumetric Lightning etc. They haven't mentioned Async Compute/Shaders at all outside of GameWorks VR and Async Timewarp, which they did mention specifically as an issue for developers to work around it to minimize (not remove) the problem.

Do you know when the dust settles, what NV's PR is going to say when people question their "DX12 hardware support"? Because the one of basic function to be DX12 hardware is Async Compute/Shaders support. NV will simply say: "We do support it, but we never said our hardware was any good at it". Guaranteed PR statement and the consumers will forgive them like the 3.5GB 970.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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There's no way for Oxide to know with absolute certainty whether Maxwell 2 supports asynchronous compute. Only NVidia can confirm whether it does or not.

But now we're finding out that it does, and that it was turned off for the NVidia path due to being buggy.

I asked you earlier in the other thread and this (since you wanted to know more about ACEs), what would happen if indeed NV GPUs cannot run Async Compute without a performance loss, I asked whether it would matter, whether gamers will care. It seems you are adamant NV GPUs do indeed support it AND should run it very well. So let me ask, what if Oxide is correct? How would you feel? Would it matter or you just upgrade to Pascal regardless?

Sebbi's (B3D) statement should really ring a bell, when a prominent programmer doesn't know the capability of Maxwell on async compute but straight out say "GCN is excellent at it"... why the silence from NV? They should be flaunting their DX12 hardware and showcase how it excels for DX12 features..
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
4,027
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Do you know when the dust settles, what NV's PR is going to say when people question their "DX12 hardware support"? Because the one of basic function to be DX12 hardware is Async Compute/Shaders support. NV will simply say: "We do support it, but we never said our hardware was any good at it". Guaranteed PR statement and the consumers will forgive them like the 3.5GB 970.
I'm not getting your point here,are NV cards being utilized 100% right now with dx11? Will they be utilized 100% with dx12 as soon as optimization is complete?
Isn't that the whole point of dx12,to get as much as possible out of a vga?

Of course AMD runs better witch async because they completely depend on async to get 100% utilized,there is no other way for a gpu with a lot of ACEs to reach 100% ,you have to run additional crap in parallel

(by giving a game more units than it really needs )
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Of course AMD runs better witch async because they completely depend on async to get 100% utilized,there is no other way for a gpu with a lot of ACEs to reach 100% ,you have to run additional crap* in parallel

(by giving a game more units than it really needs )

That wasn't obvious at all last week, let alone a few months ago.

I've learnt heaps on GPU microarchitecture lately. It started due to Ryan Smith's wrong table since I read the GCN programming guide.

*Lighting, AA, Physics & Shadows aren't exactly crap, they are all fundamental to a game, if GCN can do it in parallel and free up the main graphics engine, it means its gets a big perf gain.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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There's no way for Oxide to know with absolute certainty whether Maxwell 2 supports asynchronous compute. Only NVidia can confirm whether it does or not.

The fact that it's not currently working in the drivers means nothing, as NVidia still has lots of work to do when it comes to polishing their DX12 driver and that particular feature could not be optimized.

In fact, I linked to a post from sebbi at beyond3d forums where he stated this as one of several possibilities, that asynchronous compute may not even be fully activated yet in the drivers for NVidia, or that AotS does not use asynchronous compute period..

But now we're finding out that it does, and that it was turned off for the NVidia path due to being buggy.

So, that's what you got out of the reply posted above from the actual developer? Unbelievable! :SMH:
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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I'm not getting your point here,are NV cards being utilized 100% right now with dx11? Will they be utilized 100% with dx12 as soon as optimization is complete?
Isn't that the whole point of dx12,to get as much as possible out of a vga?

Of course AMD runs better witch async because they completely depend on async to get 100% utilized,there is no other way for a gpu with a lot of ACEs to reach 100% ,you have to run additional crap in parallel

(by giving a game more units than it really needs )

You dont need "more units that it really needs" to use Async Compute for better performance. Seams you didnt pay attention, when a PC developer says the following its crystal clear what Async Compute can do for gaming.

Our use of Async Compute, however, pales with comparisons to some of the things which the console guys are starting to do. Most of those haven't made their way to the PC yet, but I've heard of developers getting 30% GPU performance by using Async Compute.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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So let me ask, what if Oxide is correct? How would you feel? Would it matter or you just upgrade to Pascal regardless?

And I'll tell you the same thing I told you in the other thread. Yes it would matter to me, but it wouldn't necessarily stop me from upgrading to Pascal.

I usually swap out my GPUs every year regardless, and Pascal is guaranteed to be much faster than Maxwell due to the die shrink and the efficiency improvements.

So I'll get whatever is fastest. I'm ditching SLI next year and will be getting the fastest single GPU I can get my grubby little paws on, ie a Titan XI or whatever that can comfortably handle 4K. NVidia will likely release Pascal before AMD releases Arctic Islands, so that's probably the biggest reason why I will more than likely end up with Pascal.

But AMD is certainly becoming more of an option for me due to DX12 I must say..

Sebbi's (B3D) statement should really ring a bell, when a prominent programmer doesn't know the capability of Maxwell on async compute but straight out say "GCN is excellent at it"... why the silence from NV? They should be flaunting their DX12 hardware and showcase how it excels for DX12 features..

Asynchronous compute isn't some magic bullet you know. It may give big benefits for AMD's architecture seeing as though GCN has a problem with underutilization, but hardly anything for NVidia's as Maxwell is much more efficient.

But at this time, I'm betting that it's likely a driver problem that will eventually get sorted out. I doubt Nvidia will ever get large gains from AC due to aforementioned reasons, but they should still get gains.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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So, that's what you got out of the reply posted above from the actual developer? Unbelievable! :SMH:

And what am I supposed to get pray tell? The developer said it was enabled in the driver, but it just wasn't working the way it should be working.

If Maxwell 2 doesn't support AC as the dev suggests, then why on Earth would they enable it in their drivers?

The likely answer is that it's supported, but either not properly implemented (due to hardware design), or not properly optimized in their driver codebase.

I'm betting on the latter..
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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You dont need "more units that it really needs" to use Async Compute for better performance. Seams you didnt pay attention, when a PC developer says the following its crystal clear what Async Compute can do for gaming.

The dev is saying the exact same thing,async is needed to get 30% more performance,30% that you are not getting otherwise.