[ARS] FCC to vote on measure that allows incumbent telcos to let copper lines "rot"...

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,581
10,220
126
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-leave-americans-with-worse-internet-access/

... without providing "functional replacements"... leaving many DSL customers, many rural, High and Dry, and likewise, people that require POTS service for alarms or medical devices.

I think that this is a shame, and that the republican-controlled FCC is an affront to a civilized society, that depends on reliable, fairly-supported, and inexpensive telecommunication services.

If the FCC allows telcos to gut or abandon their copper networks, at the very least, they should be required to wire them up with fiber.

Edit: I believe that this is a totally separate issue than the "net neutrality" debate / vote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So who should pay? Do you want the customers that live in cities to pay for those who still use the slow lines? Those that live in rual areas do not pay for the costs of their choices. Major cities end up paying for those rual people.

Most private firms get to charge more for services that cost more. Laying line in low density areas costs a lot of money vs the revenue that comes in. So, the quest is who should pay for the cost?
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-leave-americans-with-worse-internet-access/

... without providing "functional replacements"... leaving many DSL customers, many rural, High and Dry, and likewise, people that require POTS service for alarms or medical devices.

I think that this is a shame, and that the republican-controlled FCC is an affront to a civilized society, that depends on reliable, fairly-supported, and inexpensive telecommunication services.

If the FCC allows telcos to gut or abandon their copper networks, at the very least, they should be required to wire them up with fiber.

Edit: I believe that this is a totally separate issue than the "net neutrality" debate / vote.
Force them to release all claims to the abandoned system and let co ops assume control of the property free of charge. Copper bandwidth won't be obsolete in a literal sense for years, at which point it can be repurposed for non-internet communication purposes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,499
10,138
136
Wait...hasn't Verizon been doing this already? I thought they were already letting copper rot in NY, NJ and Mass (and not guaranteeing a fiber upgrade...waiting for 5G before some customers can get upgraded service.)

Not sure what the FCC ruling will change, except prevent customers from suing.

Will they get rid of the stupid universal service fee if copper can't be maintained? I doubt it...
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...d-leave-americans-with-worse-internet-access/

... without providing "functional replacements"... leaving many DSL customers, many rural, High and Dry, and likewise, people that require POTS service for alarms or medical devices.

I think that this is a shame, and that the republican-controlled FCC is an affront to a civilized society, that depends on reliable, fairly-supported, and inexpensive telecommunication services.

If the FCC allows telcos to gut or abandon their copper networks, at the very least, they should be required to wire them up with fiber.

Edit: I believe that this is a totally separate issue than the "net neutrality" debate / vote.

Love it, love it, love it, LOVE IT!!!! This directly affects Republican voters. When all the rednecks in the sticks can't get their internet, there will be only party to blame, the party they voted for.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,581
10,220
126
So who should pay? Do you want the customers that live in cities to pay for those who still use the slow lines? Those that live in rual areas do not pay for the costs of their choices. Major cities end up paying for those rual people.

Most private firms get to charge more for services that cost more. Laying line in low density areas costs a lot of money vs the revenue that comes in. So, the quest is who should pay for the cost?

The thing is, many of these telcos have received many millions (billions?) of tax-payer money to provide infrastructure services and build-out, that never happened.

Secondarily, this is INFRASTRUCTURE. Something essential to society. I get that that the rich republicans want to all live in fancy cities of the future, and wall off and forget about anyone else in the country, but there's a lot of territory in the USA that's not a high-population-density city.

These telcos are granted MONOPOLY status, by the GOV'T. Shouldn't, in return, those same companies be required to provide service to EVERYONE that wants it, within their monopoly service area?

There's this concept of "Universal Service", maybe you've heard of it? And just because they're not milking MAXIMUM PROFIT doesn't mean that such deployments won't be profitable AT ALL. Heck, even rural folks like their netflix.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The thing is, many of these telcos have received many millions (billions?) of tax-payer money to provide infrastructure services and build-out, that never happened.

Secondarily, this is INFRASTRUCTURE. Something essential to society. I get that that the rich republicans want to all live in fancy cities of the future, and wall off and forget about anyone else in the country, but there's a lot of territory in the USA that's not a high-population-density city.

These telcos are granted MONOPOLY status, by the GOV'T. Shouldn't, in return, those same companies be required to provide service to EVERYONE that wants it, within their monopoly service area?

There's this concept of "Universal Service", maybe you've heard of it? And just because they're not milking MAXIMUM PROFIT doesn't mean that such deployments won't be profitable AT ALL. Heck, even rural folks like their netflix.


So ask yourself this. If it is profitable, then why not continue to do it? If the telcos are out to make money, and there is money to be made doing what they have been doing up until now, why stop?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
So who should pay? Do you want the customers that live in cities to pay for those who still use the slow lines? Those that live in rual areas do not pay for the costs of their choices. Major cities end up paying for those rual people.

Most private firms get to charge more for services that cost more. Laying line in low density areas costs a lot of money vs the revenue that comes in. So, the quest is who should pay for the cost?
So are you for cutting off their water and electricity too? It is sad that 80 years ago Americans cared enough about each other that we could pass laws that ensured everyone had access to basic utilities, but to day it is all about the money.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
So are you for cutting off their water and electricity too? It is sad that 80 years ago Americans cared enough about each other that we could pass laws that ensured everyone had access to basic utilities, but to day it is all about the money.

OMG how did you figure it out. I totally want to kill people. I thought my code of simply asking who should pay for it was clever, but you turned my world upside down by pointing out that it was all a lie.

Or... maybe I was simply asking who should cover the cost. If it is worth doing, then its worth paying for. What good is a law saying people should have access if its not paid for and not built?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
OMG how did you figure it out. I totally want to kill people. I thought my code of simply asking who should pay for it was clever, but you turned my world upside down by pointing out that it was all a lie.

Or... maybe I was simply asking who should cover the cost. If it is worth doing, then its worth paying for. What good is a law saying people should have access if its not paid for and not built?
I assume it will be paid for the same way it had been for the last 80 years. Taxes on your phone bill requiring companies to pay as part of their franchise license with the state. This isn't a new problem, so it is reasonable to assume it'll be paid for the way it has been.

This is a clear attempt to allow telecom industry to make more profit by letting them out of their duties for universal coverage. Water and power are very similar, I'm sure a lot of power companies would leave to drop rural people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I assume it will be paid for the same way it had been for the last 80 years. Taxes on your phone bill requiring companies to pay as part of their franchise license with the state. This isn't a new problem, so it is reasonable to assume it'll be paid for the way it has been.

This is a clear attempt to allow telecom industry to make more profit by letting them out of their duties for universal coverage. Water and power are very similar, I'm sure a lot of power companies would leave to drop rural people.

The next question is why is it a companies duty to serve, and not the government?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Because the government pays them to? Also because they are given monopoly powers. It's funny you objected so hard to my first post, but it seems like you would be fine pulling mandated rural services.

I objected to your post because you were asking if I was willing to cut off water and electricity. I mean really, did you think you were not being hyperbolic?

I think governments tinkering with markets usually ends badly. Giving companies monopoly power and then giving them kick backs helps a very small few vs the overall cost of the many. Rural areas have for a long time gotten far more out of the government than they put in. It also turns out that most of those areas are squarely R. If people want to have the convenience of modern things then they need to help pay for them. If you want to live in a place where there is very little population (I will some day when I retire) then you should have to pay a little more for things. Not as a tax on your choice, but because things cost more to reach you.

I seen very little if any overall benefit to society under the current structure.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,581
10,220
126
So ask yourself this. If it is profitable, then why not continue to do it? If the telcos are out to make money, and there is money to be made doing what they have been doing up until now, why stop?
That's a very good question, and the real answer is, Wall Street is a bunch of f'ed up money-grubbing high-maintenance losers.

Edit: What I really meant by that, in a less childish way of speaking, I suppose, is that it seems that most of the entrenched Wall Street-types, are basically fueled by Greed, and have mostly lost their Humanity, and lost care for their fellow person. I believe in doing what's best, if possible, for the whole picture.

I mean, those that want the highest short-term gain, mostly turn to crime, and I think there's a fine line sometimes between street criminals and Wall Street-types. Just my biased opinion.

On the other hand, those people that are CEOs at major companies, if they are any good, are pretty serious leaders, as well as potential risk-takers. Which are positive traits.

For my example, Verizon introduced Fiber-To-The-Home a few years back, they called it FIOS.

The CEO changed, the new CEO *halted expansion* of FIOS. Not because it wasn't making money, it was. It was that it wasn't making a HUGE ENOUGH PROFIT IMMEDIATELY TO SATISFY WALL STREET.

Wall Street, in case you hadn't guessed, does NOT "support" Main Street (rural America), in any way shape or form. The do not support infrastructure. All they care about is profits, and not just that, but HUGE profits. Immediately, so that they can cash out.

Only more recently, has FIOS expansion been happening again, and now finally, Boston is getting FIOS, and parts of NYC that were supposed to be served before, but weren't.

Edit: These delays in infrastructure-building, when shown on a balance sheet, really don't account for the very real HUMAN COST of delaying their introduction. This is lives we're talking about. Not life-and-death, generally (although it may get to that if the telcos get to abandon copper without "reliable replacements" being required by law), but a very real and measurable quality-of-life issue. Kind of like being stuck without an air conditioner in summertime. Depending on the climate, you'll most likely survive, but it's going to be... unpleasant.

Edit: I haven't run the numbers, but I feel that FIOS could, potentially be a money maker in rural America. Maybe. But OTOH, if everyone is eventually moved to fiber, then they're going to have to do it eventually anyways, right?

Edit: And if it's truly not profitable, at all, then that's why we have the sorts of social welfare programs that we do, in the form of the Universal Service Fund.

Though, if some successful Mesh Networking project takes off, then I can see plenty of rural folks buying their own little slice 'o the 'net, and powering it up, and together, they can form their own network, that ties into the greater phone and internet networks at the edges, where possible and commercially feasible. (I posted a link to just such a thing happening, in the other FCC "network neutrality" thread here.)

Maybe I shouldn't get sucked into P&N posting, on the eve of my Mod appointment. I just saw that news article about this vote, thought that it was timely, remembered that P&N required a comment about the link, and not just a link, and then I felt the need to defend my position when questioned.

I think that I'm going to bow out, and just say that, pure unadulterated greed, is NOT the solution to the world's problems. The "invisible hand", needs to remember to NOT cause pain, in doing what it's doing.
 
Last edited:

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
I objected to your post because you were asking if I was willing to cut off water and electricity. I mean really, did you think you were not being hyperbolic?
Considering water and electricity are provided to rural areas in almost the exact same way as telephone service and all three are basic utilities, no I don't think I was being hyperbolic.

No one could afford utility access in rural areas without these laws. But almost all of our food and non-imported raw materials come from those areas. Therefore there are benefits to society of letting and helping people live there.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,608
33,369
136
My house sits less than a half mile from a repeater station for a trans-continental fiber network. The road into my neighborhood has been torn up at least four times as more fiber was laid. Yet no FIOS, no fiber for us. We didn't even have DSL until five years ago. Cable came in about three years ago (with lower bandwidth than the DSL offers) Prior to that, fixed cellular was the only option for any speed (1.5 down, 0.5 up according to the vendor though much slower in real life) above regular dial-up. Abandoning copper would screw us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
136
If people want to have the convenience of modern things then they need to help pay for them. If you want to live in a place where there is very little population (I will some day when I retire) then you should have to pay a little more for things. Not as a tax on your choice, but because things cost more to reach you.

So you think people who live in rural areas don't already pay more than those living in cities for the same goods and services?

I've got news for you....the only thing that's cheaper in rural areas is housing. Everything else is more expensive. Food, gas, internet, damned near everything you can name is more expensive. Fewer choices where to buy leads to higher prices...less competition.

So the notion that rural areas don't pay more is just dead wrong.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
Don't worry, rural Trump supporters. Free market will take care of you.
Laissez-faire those communication blues away until grandpa out in cornfield county can't ring up paw kettle on the neighbors farm because the lines are down and they're too old fashioned to use VOIP services.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ch33zw1z

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Love it, love it, love it, LOVE IT!!!! This directly affects Republican voters. When all the rednecks in the sticks can't get their internet, there will be only party to blame, the party they voted for.

At least we'll be able to easier ID the Russian trolls as all the hicks will be offline.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Laissez-faire those communication blues away until grandpa out in cornfield county can't ring up paw kettle on the neighbors farm because the lines are down and they're too old fashioned to use VOIP services.

Please. It's still dialup or satellite internet out there some places in the hinterlands. You know, them copper wire thingies. The high latency of satellite service is lousy for VOIP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarthKyrie
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,851
146
Wait...hasn't Verizon been doing this already? I thought they were already letting copper rot in NY, NJ and Mass (and not guaranteeing a fiber upgrade...waiting for 5G before some customers can get upgraded service.)

Not sure what the FCC ruling will change, except prevent customers from suing.

Will they get rid of the stupid universal service fee if copper can't be maintained? I doubt it...

If I'm not mistaken they actually are going after the USF, but get this, they claim its because of "massive corruption" that they have not documented. There were a handful of instances, but those were addressed by the previous FCC administration if I remember correctly. I might be mistaken that they're actually saying anything about the USF itself, but they're targeting the programs it paid for. And it was one of the ways that Republicans screamed how the Net Neutrality was Obamacare of the Internet.

Ars has had a bunch of articles on this stuff. I'm guessing you can find links to other stories in the article in the OP (and can branch out from there).

So ask yourself this. If it is profitable, then why not continue to do it? If the telcos are out to make money, and there is money to be made doing what they have been doing up until now, why stop?

Because its more profitable to take the money and not actually do it? Plus, they can get more profits by pushing people to cellular data, where they can charge more. Plus they're under less requirements for providing service under cellular because its ruled as a different service (they're supposed to be required to maintain the copper lines for phone for emergencies).

As others stated, they were paid and given monopoly access specifically to not do what they're now doing. We've paid for that copper multiple times over. They should remit it to the government (best would be the local/county) and let them decide what to do with it. But ISPs are trying to make that illegal, because it would harm their ability to screw people over, and would likely lead to a movement of municipal/government involvement that would massively undermine what they've been doing, which is to try to reach similar stranglehold that old Ma Bell AT&T had before the government broke them up.