Armed Militia Members take over Federal Building in Oregon

[Jaskalas]

What about the notion that there is something wrong with this country to begin with, where government can just ultimately make arbitrary rules to eliminate the rights of the citizens and then label anybody who dare protest, legally or illegally, terrorists.

Without the support of local elected officials, they stand against the rule of law as nothing more than anarchists. Such divisions are what make places like Afghanistan exactly what they are today. People don't want such violence and civil strife here in America.

If people have been wronged, take the time to gather local support of elected officials. Failing their immediate support, campaign and elect those who will. If they can't win election on their issue... why should they be allowed to contest the will of the voters?

Shouldn't we stand as a Democracy?

 

[theeedude]

No, more like comparing disparate reactions to highlight hypocrisy.

You are comparing these "protesters" to armed gangsters. :thumbsup:

 

[LegendKiller]

If you "protest" by armed hijacking of taxpayer owned property, they you are a terrorist. If you want to be called a protesters, than read up on non-violent civil disobedience.

Guess you need to round up all of the BLM protestors that shut down freeway and an airport. Those are federally owned and/or were interfering in the operation of an airport and interstate commerce. I bet some were armed also.

 

[LegendKiller]

Without the support of local elected officials, they stand against the rule of law as nothing more than anarchists. Such divisions are what make places like Afghanistan exactly what they are today. People don't want such violence and civil strife here in America.

If people have been wronged, take the time to gather local support of elected officials. Failing their immediate support, campaign and elect those who will. If they can't win election on their issue... why should they be allowed to contest the will of the voters?

Shouldn't we stand as a Democracy?

What is democratic about the BLM and FWS effectively annexing their land and arbitrarily prosecuting them?

I don't fully agree with them but I can understand the frustrations.

 

[theeedude]

Really?

Guess you need to go back and re-read what happened around 1773 and after.

These guys can't even get sympathy from fellow right wing nuts. The fact that you had to go that far back makes my point. There won't be a revolution because the Federal government sends a convicted arsonist to prison.

Does representation extend to the BLM and our ability to modify the monolithic federal government?

You can vote and modify it. Or write to your congressperson. Or organize around your cause to build support for it. No shortcuts involving machine guns, sorry.

 

[theeedude]

Guess you need to round up all of the BLM protestors that shut down freeway and an airport. Those are federally owned and/or were interfering in the operation of an airport and interstate commerce. I bet some were armed also.

Sure. Again, read up on non-violent civil disobedience. Getting arrested for breaking laws one was protesting was part of the whole thing. "Letter from Birmingham Jail" ring a bell?

 

[IronWing]

What is democratic about the BLM and FWS effectively annexing their land and arbitrarily prosecuting them?

I don't fully agree with them but I can understand the frustrations.

What are you going on about now? The arsonists were convicted of arson by a jury trial. They used up their appeals and lost. The original judge ignored the law, got slapped, and now the sentence that Congress wrote into the law will be served. If you think the sentence for arson is too harsh, fine, call your congress critter. No one's land was annexed. The only arbitrary action was the trial judge's decision to ignore black letter law.

 

[IronWing]

So are liberals that would utilize the government to take rights. Seems like the backstory is all about government overreach.

There was no government overreach, just a pair of arsonists who happen to wear cowboy hats.

 

[Brian Stirling]

So, domestic terrorists are being ... domestic terrorists -- color me surprised!

The fiasco that was Ruby Ridge and Waco have left the feds in a bind as far as dealing with right wing extremist terrorists as they don't want a repeat of those two earlier events. But, failure to apply the law when it's violated has only emboldened them and we can expect more of this.

Cruz and Trump leading the pack is a pretty decent indicator of just how deeply this moral corruption is within the right. They're not leading by a little either!

For years the center and left have not been able to deal with right wing extremism and now the Republican party has discovered that the Jeannie they let out of the bottle is now consuming there party.

Let's all pray they do not win the election!


Brian

 

[ivwshane]

Good lord look at the nutters twist themselves all up trying to justify this.

Your hypocrisy legendkiller is, once again, noted!

 

[Subyman]

I don't see it as terrorism. Their goal isn't to cause panic to the general public. They have holed themselves in a building without any hostages and without any threat to the public. The best course of action IMO for the safety of LEO is to secure the parameter, cut off any supplies getting in, and communicate with them. This will be a long process, but at least no one gets killed.

 

[IronWing]

I don't see it as terrorism. Their goal isn't to cause panic to the general public. They have holed themselves in a building without any hostages and without any threat to the public. The best course of action IMO for the safety of LEO is to secure the parameter, cut off any supplies getting in, and communicate with them. This will be a long process, but at least no one gets killed.

I think their intent is to terrorize. I agree with the approach you advocate. This time however, there better be prosecutions.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I have another question.. why doesn't this qualify as terrorism?



After looking at the definition, shouldn't it be terrorism?

White. Question answered.

 

[fskimospy]

How about all of those armed ms13 gang members that came here illegally? What about the rest of the illegals and gang members that kill thousands every year?

don't see you howling about them.

What are you incoherently ranting about now? If people are threatening violence they should be dealt with.

Your racism is showing really badly in this thread. I for one am completely unsurprised at your attempt at white victimhood while you rant about black lives matter. If they take over a federal building and threaten violence and death to any who attempt to bring them to justice I'll be against that too.

Color me totally shocked that your law and order stance goes right out the window as soon as it's a bunch of white guys with guns.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I don't see it as terrorism. Their goal isn't to cause panic to the general public. They have holed themselves in a building without any hostages and without any threat to the public. The best course of action IMO for the safety of LEO is to secure the parameter, cut off any supplies getting in, and communicate with them. This will be a long process, but at least no one gets killed.

I agree. Everyone needs to calm down and take a deep breath. Patience is the proper course of action and a zero body [count] the priority. These are white people we're dealing with here.

 

[Subyman]

I think their intent is to terrorize. I agree with the approach you advocate. This time however, there better be prosecutions.

I still don't see the terror aspect. They have secluded themselves far away from the public. Their intent is coverage, not necessarily making people scared.

 

[Subyman]

I agree. Everyone needs to calm down and take a deep breath. Patience is the proper course of action and a zero body the priority. These are white people we're dealing with here.

I'd advocate the same thing no matter who is holding up the building without hostages. This race thing in this thread is nauseating.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I agree. Everyone needs to calm down and take a deep breath. Patience is the proper course of action and a zero body the priority. These are white people we're dealing with here.

:thumbsup:

The double standard here is particularly appalling. If this were a group of legally armed muslims barricading themselves in this facility to protest the current stream of anti-muslim propaganda, I'm guessing the conversation would have a decidedly different slant to it.

Nah, not guessing, it would definitely have a more aggressive slant to it, removing them by force, or whatever means necessary. To say otherwise is either genuinely naive or willfully ignorant.

 

[fskimospy]

:thumbsup:

The double standard here is particularly appalling. If this were a group of legally armed muslims barricading themselves in this facility to protest the current stream of anti-muslim propaganda, I'm guessing the conversation would have a decidedly different slant to it.

Nah, not guessing, it would definitely have a more aggressive slant to it, removing them by force, or whatever means necessary. To say otherwise is either genuinely naive or willfully ignorant.

Can you imagine the meltdown that Legendkiller would be having if the protesters in Ferguson holed themselves up in the courthouse or whatever and said they would violently resist any attempt to evict them?

Or yes, if Muslims were doing that. He would probably be foaming at the mouth about how we should be killing them. It's amazing that some people are so enraged and driven by emotional identity politics that we can't even agree that violent threats should be universally condemned because their favored cultural and racial group is the one making the threats.

 

[zinfamous]

So are liberals that would utilize the government to take rights. Seems like the backstory is all about government overreach.

So are conservatives that would utilize the government to take rights.

The backstory is about some rednecks and their activities on federal land that they were leasing. Once again, "free-staters" refusing to accept the consequences of their actions.

 

[Knowing]

Go to the press, organize a peaceful demonstration, etc..... going straight to armed violence would not even be on the radar screen. Wonder if your opinion would change if a bunch of armed Muslims took over a federal building because they weren't allowed to impose sharia law.....

This has been going on since 2006 and they didn't go straight to violence, that's the Bundys. Apparently it worked, we are talking about how commenters on teh interbutts can't tell the difference between a group of people being subject to double jeopardy and "a bunch of armed thugs" who are successfully getting the word out.

The government isn't trampling on anyone's rights. Maybe if they hadn't committed a crime and broke the law, this wouldn't be an issue.

Hopefully this ends with bunch of militia garbage in prison where they belong.

They're paying the fine and already served the sentence issued. Now, despite the prosecutor never calling them terrorists, they're being labeled such so that they go back to jail because being in jail is conducive to paying the rest of the fine, I guess, for reasons. This certainly doesn't have anything to do with the BLM wanting the first (and only) shot at their land. Mando minimum sentencing didn't really play in to it when a woman who made an alleged rape threat against herself had earlier threatened a boss with a firearm. She's going to law school now which is apparently what you do when you're found to be violent and repeatedly on the wrong side of the law.

If this is a miscarriage of justice in some way we have numerous avenues for redress through both the legal and political system. I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth either, but am I correct to presume that you also wish to see these thugs prosecuted to the full extent of the law? If not, I assume that you would support activists in Ferguson and other cities engaging in the armed takeover of government buildings there as well.

I imagine you included 'if I were a conspiracy theorist before that last statement because you realize that what you're saying is most likely insane.

Ah yes, the legal system that is subjecting them to double jeopardy. Good, I'm sure that will work out for everyone, and by everyone I mean they'll go to jail and lose the farm instead of paying the fine.

If you can't see the difference between a glorified campsite and a building in downtown Chicago (which could be an improvement) then your sense of scope is damaged. However, yes, the Bundy gang is electing to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in order to bring attention to what is probably a persistent government f-up. I'd also like to note that the particularly virulent "activists" in Ferguson where revolutionary communists from Chicago so again we have radically stupid individuals acting on behalf of people with actual grievances.

I believe that governments are made up of individuals and that those individuals like all the rest of us are fallible human beans. Unless you think that agents of government are "cut from better cloth" than the rest of us and are incapable of acting as groups to plan something harmful? Then I suppose your position is that there has never been a "government conspiracy" ever, which would be interesting and probably insane.

 

[fskimospy]

Ah yes, the legal system that is subjecting them to double jeopardy. Good, I'm sure that will work out for everyone, and by everyone I mean they'll go to jail and lose the farm instead of paying the fine.

You don't appear to have a strong grasp of double jeopardy. This is in no way double jeopardy, an appeals court ruled that their initial sentence was illegal. Guess what, just like if the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account you don't just get to say that because they screwed up in sentencing that you don't have to serve the real sentence.

If you can't see the difference between a glorified campsite and a building in downtown Chicago (which could be an improvement) then your sense of scope is damaged.

Ok so your argument is that it's ok to occupy federal buildings and threaten violence so long as they are small buildings. That makes total sense to someone I'm sure.

However, yes, the Bundy gang is electing to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in order to bring attention to what is probably a persistent government f-up. I'd also like to note that the particularly virulent "activists" in Ferguson where revolutionary communists from Chicago so again we have radically stupid individuals acting on behalf of people with actual grievances.

I believe that governments are made up of individuals and that those individuals like all the rest of us are fallible human beans. Unless you think that agents of government are "cut from better cloth" than the rest of us and are incapable of acting as groups to plan something harmful? Then I suppose your position is that there has never been a "government conspiracy" ever, which would be interesting and probably insane.

Nice attempt at a straw man. One does not need to believe there has never been a government conspiracy to think that a federal appeals court conspiring to steal land from ranchers despite literally zero evidence is a stupid and borderline insane thing to think.

So your homework is to go research double jeopardy and find literally a shred of evidence that the appeals court is conspiring against them. Be sure to check your work!

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

:thumbsup:

The double standard here is particularly appalling. If this were a group of legally armed muslims barricading themselves in this facility to protest the current stream of anti-muslim propaganda, I'm guessing the conversation would have a decidedly different slant to it.

Nah, not guessing, it would definitely have a more aggressive slant to it, removing them by force, or whatever means necessary. To say otherwise is either genuinely naive or willfully ignorant.

Plus the constant breaking news live media coverage of the armed standoff that is instead just few articles about anti-government protesters.

Edit: Peaceful protesters even.

 

[LegendKiller]

Can you imagine the meltdown that Legendkiller would be having if the protesters in Ferguson holed themselves up in the courthouse or whatever and said they would violently resist any attempt to evict them?

Or yes, if Muslims were doing that. He would probably be foaming at the mouth about how we should be killing them. It's amazing that some people are so enraged and driven by emotional identity politics that we can't even agree that violent threats should be universally condemned because their favored cultural and racial group is the one making the threats.

You mean like they did when they burned down a bunch of shit? Or looted pharmacies in Baltimore?

 

[Darwin333]

Of course none of which justifies armed occupation of a federal building. I presume you join us in hoping these criminals are dealt with swiftly and imprisoned accordingly.

It's wrong that a terrorism law applied to these ranchers and from what I've read the sentence is unjust, even the original judge thought it would be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual. We should have some process in which some judicial entity can overrule bullshit mandatory minimums. For that case, mandatory minimums should be completely done away with across the board but that's a much harder sell imho. There appears to be very good reason to protest this seemingly unjust sentence.

With that said, these armed assholes have done nothing but make the situation much worse for the poor guys in jail. They have made it virtually impossible for the .gov figure out a way to help them out or even for Obama to step in and pardon them. If they do it would appear that absurd and illegal tactics like an armed militia taking over federal lands and property are successful in getting the .gov to capitulate.

I definitely don't want to see another Waco here but it appears they picked about the worst place and time to occupy. The locals don't appear to support them at all so I agree with an above poster. Cut all power, water and close off all access and wait them out. From what I understand of the remoteness of the area that should be easy to do. Especially since the town folk aren't on their side and won't be helping them out. They will get cold and hungry soon enough and once a few start peeling off the rest will follow very soon. There might be a few hardcore holdouts but they would be easily dealt with. Personally I'd still wait them out, eventually they will get cold and hungry enough.

Hell after their phones run out of juice they won't even be able to get the publicity that they want and will soon be forgotten.