ARM profits up 22%. Maybe the tech economy is doing well after all.

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Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
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That's not saying they charge per core at all, that's saying that multi-core chips have led to greater revenues, which agrees with their ACTUAL terms as quoted in my post, where they take a portion of the overall chip revenue.
Multi-core chips are more expensive, therefore you get more revenue per chip because you are taking a cut of the price.

The financial statements of ARM state that they charge royalties per chip, based on chip cost, and not per core. You just misinterpreted the statement on Hexus.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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However, that situation has changed dramatically, and continues to change. We have a pretty good idea of what a smart phone and a tablet should look and feel like now. And there's real profit to be made. So it's becoming a stable market, just like the PC market, where the technical requirements are well understood. So Intel can soon dominate these markets with just a handful of products. They don't have to specifically design things for Apple. Everyone needs largely the same things.

That doesn't mean just the plastic around the processor but the processor and SoC itself. If you're buying Intel, you're buying only Intel. That's it. You can't take an Intel x86 core and slap it in your own SoC. You can't make an Intel processor elsewhere but only at Intel's fabs. If Intel makes an SoC, that's what you're getting. If you want something else, tough luck.

That's a huge negative.

- If Apple needs a bigger beefier GPU to drive its massive amount of pixels, is there any conceivable way to put in a bigger GPU into an Intel SoC if Intel doesn't make it? No. You'd have to look elsewhere.

- If Amazon wants a smaller SoC without as much processing power as a movie-and-reading tablet, would they go and buy the big and powerful x86 SoC? No, they'd go elsewhere (or in their case just buy TI's OMAP division and make their own).

- If a company needs very good LTE service for a smartphone, where do they go? Intel doesn't offer it. What if Qualcomm offers a better deal for their SoC with the LTE included than they would for offering the licensing for it?

The problem is that making your own cores is very expensive compared to picking an off-the-shelf product. And the potential benefit from doing it is rapidly diminishing. Furthermore, soon Intel will offer a crushing advantage in performance/Watt. This will leave them no choice but to buy into x86.

We've also been hearing this from Intel for a few years now and they have yet to deliver. You're assuming it's already a done deal. And that's quite an assumption.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
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That was absolutely ARM's major advantage at the time the iPhone and iPad were conceived. Apple needed that flexibility to execute its vision of these new devices, at a time when others were too sceptical that it would succeed to invest in it themselves.

it still is ARM major advantage,
LOL, i really wanna see intel getting a design win from samsung
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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That's not saying they charge per core at all, that's saying that multi-core chips have led to greater revenues, which agrees with their ACTUAL terms as quoted in my post, where they take a portion of the overall chip revenue.
Multi-core chips are more expensive, therefore you get more revenue per chip because you are taking a cut of the price.

The financial statements of ARM state that they charge royalties per chip, based on chip cost, and not per core. You just misinterpreted the statement on Hexus.

We can argue about the semantics. Point is ARM doesnt charge a flat royalty.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
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Here's the problem. If the mobile market is actually highly lucrative and it affects Intel's bottom line, they can and will adjust their business model to the market's needs.

There is a saying "too little too late".
Apple is now switching from merely licensed ARM CPUs to developing completely custom ARM CPU.

Intel changing its business model would have to compete with the sunk development costs apple already made and convince them to switch towards developing on x86 (after having licensed it fully to Apple).

If the rumors are true, then the biggest saving grace for x86 right now is actually from AMD, who supposedly got all 3 major consoles refreshes working off of an AMD APU running x86 (a big win since all 3 were running powerPC CPUs before). This is a pretty big boon. Console ports will likely not be available for windowsRT with its ARM CPUs, only x86 windows and PCs. And in 8 years it will be more appealing to maintain the same architecture when choosing next gen console CPUs.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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We can argue about the semantics. Point is ARM doesnt charge a flat royalty.

You just said ARM charges per core. He, and I, just told you they don't.

Why would they charge a flat royalty? It's not like they're making out like bandits while the others are suffering. It'll depend on the design/product, but it's cheap. Have you seen Apple's revenue lately? Samsung? Qualcomm?
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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You said they are getting more because they charge per core and more devices are using multiple cores.

The actual reason is because people are licensing more expensive core IPs and making more expensive ARM based chips.
 

BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
392
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If we're to judge by their Ultrabook response, then no. If we're to judge by Medfield's pricing, then maybe/yes.
I've said this before and I'll say it again; ultrabooks need Haswell/Broadwell. What we're seeing today is a haphazard mix of an ultrabook form factor with a laptop CPU. They're prototypes sold to early adopters.

So just give it some time. People were very sceptical about Atom in mobile phones but a couple years later we're starting to see the fruits of continued refinement. Likewise, ultrabooks will only get better over time, and Intel is advancing its technology much faster than anyone else.
Intel is definitely sending mixed signals, though. On one side, they're willing to package a decent SoC and offer it for a good price, yet in the Ultrabook space they're willing to do anything humanly possible to avoid dropping the price on their processors (and thus screwing their OEMs) even as they face very poor sales and adaptation.
Meh. They don't care. They'll lower the prices when it will actually result in higher sales numbers. That's not going to happen with Ivy Bridge processors. They're still too hot and drain the tiny battery too fast for an ultrabook to be an attractive product.
The same Microsoft that's copying Apple's business motto? I'd be surprised if Microsoft don't make their own SoCs in 2-3 years.
There's no differentiation between their potential products that would justify a custom chip.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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You just said ARM charges per core. He, and I, just told you they don't.

Why would they charge a flat royalty? It's not like they're making out like bandits while the others are suffering. It'll depend on the design/product, but it's cheap. Have you seen Apple's revenue lately? Samsung? Qualcomm?

Have you seen Nokia or TI? The glorified picture of ARM kinda falls flat to the floor instantly.

Nokia is still the biggest mobile phonemaker in the world.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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I've said this before and I'll say it again; ultrabooks need Haswell/Broadwell. What we're seeing today is a haphazard mix of an ultrabook form factor with a laptop CPU. They're prototypes sold to early adopters.

Meh. They don't care. They'll lower the prices when it will actually result in higher sales numbers. That's not going to happen with Ivy Bridge processors. They're still too hot and drain the tiny battery too fast for an ultrabook to be an attractive product.

Rumors are stating that Haswell ULVs will be even more expensive than Ivy ULVs.

There's competing on price and then there's feigning competition. Right now, at least as far as Ultrabooks are concerned, Intel is feigning competition and maintaining very high prices while OEMs are operating at sub-7% margins.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
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Have you seen Nokia or TI? The glorified picture of ARM kinda falls flat to the floor instantly.

Nokia is still the biggest mobile phonemaker in the world.

I'm pretty sure the ~11cents per mobile phone isn't the reason Nokia took a nosedive.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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I'm pretty sure the ~11cents per mobile phone isn't the reason Nokia took a nosedive.

But the picture aint as rosy is it? You only talk about the good sides. What about the bad? Have you seen Nokias revenue lately? And then you wonder why Apple and Samsung benefits? Qualcomm benefits on the expense of TI for example. And ARM just raised the prices.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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But the picture aint as rosy is it? You only talk about the good sides. What about the bad? Have you seen Nokias revenue lately? And then you wonder why Apple and Samsung benefits? Qualcomm benefits on the expense of TI for example. And ARM just raised the prices.

ARM charges higher prices on newer designs. Sort of like how everything works, no?

And Nokia is failing because they can't make a proper smartphone. Sort of like how WP7 failed, and oddly enough I recall Nokia being one of the few who stood behind it (and they're still standing behind it, btw). Their failure has to do with MS and their own deficiencies. What does ARM have to do with the OS or the product that's designed? If a company can't do that they don't deserve to be kept alive. Want proof? Look at AMD.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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ARM charges higher prices on newer designs. Sort of like how everything works, no?

And Nokia is failing because they can't make a proper smartphone. Sort of like how WP7 failed, and oddly enough I recall Nokia being one of the few who stood behind it (and they're still standing behind it, btw). Their failure has to do with MS and their own deficiencies. What does ARM have to do with the OS or the product that's designed? If a company can't do that they don't deserve to be kept alive. Want proof? Look at AMD.

What about LG? So everyone cept a few select companies is a fail? Kinda talks against what you regularly praise.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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What about LG? So everyone cept a few select companies is a fail? Kinda talks against what you regularly praise.

That's called competition. Competition isn't keeping companies on a lifeline because you feel pity for them.

LG just had a very good quarter.

LG (066570) may not be raking in cash like rival Samsung (005930), but the Korean manufacturer certainly isn’t hurting financially as badly as som of its rivals, having reported a net profit of $138.6 million for the third quarter — a dramatic improvement from the $366 million net loss it posted in Q3 2011. Part of LG’s success on the quarter came from its mobile division, which posted an operating profit of $19.4 million and shipped 14 million devices on the quarter, a record 7 million of which were smartphones.

ARM competition has Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Amazon, Marvell, Broadcom, ARM itself, nVidia, and more. x86 has Intel and a fading AMD.

As a consumer who wants more for his money, I know where I'm looking.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
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And Nokia is failing because they can't make a proper smartphone. Sort of like how WP7 failed, and oddly enough I recall Nokia being one of the few who stood behind it (and they're still standing behind it, btw).

Nokia's strategic partnership with MS is indeed bizarre. It resulted in nokia discontinuing every single non MS smartphone they had. Which included their best selling phones (IIRC Android).
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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Nokia's strategic partnership with MS is indeed bizarre. It resulted in nokia discontinuing every single non MS smartphone they had. Which included their best selling phones (IIRC Android).

They signed their own death warrant. WP7 has been an utter failure, and ever since Nokia announced their partnership they've been doing progressively worse. Recently they even sold off their manufacturing plants in Finland. I just hope Intel doesn't make the same mistake and go all in with Win8.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
17,227
7,592
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Let me put it this way: A $400 windows laptop has a $100 CPU and a $20 screen. An iPad has a $15 CPU and a $100 screen. Without the protection of the duopoly, Intel isn't going to be able to sell $100 CPUs the way they have in the past. And that's if they even manage to get a foothold.

So best case scenario for Intel: A cratering of their margins or their revenue. Not too rosy huh.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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That's called competition. Competition isn't keeping companies on a lifeline because you feel pity for them.

LG just had a very good quarter.



ARM competition has Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Amazon, Marvell, Broadcom, ARM itself, nVidia, and more. x86 has Intel and a fading AMD.

As a consumer who wants more for his money, I know where I'm looking.

But LG lost 37% in Q2. So very good compared to what? Q2 or Q3 2011?

AMD is fading, since now you bet on ARM. Who will you bet on in 2015? Chinese MIPS?
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
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Let me put it this way: A $400 windows laptop has a $100 CPU and a $20 screen. An iPad has a $15 CPU and a $100 screen. Without the protection of the duopoly, Intel isn't going to be able to sell $100 CPUs the way they have in the past. And that's if they even manage to get a foothold.

So best case scenario for Intel: A cratering of their margins or their revenue. Not too rosy huh.

A 400$ laptop would most likely have a CPU in the cost of 50-60$ for the OEM.

The CPU is 23$ in the iPad and display 87$.

But the Intel chip doesnt suffer from the huge performance deficient as the ARM CPU. Hence why the upgrade path is so short on ARM devices. You usually only get 1 software revision before its over.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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But LG lost 37% in Q2. So very good compared to what? Q2 or Q3 2011?

AMD is fading, since now you bet on ARM. Who will you bet on in 2015? Chinese MIPS?

strawman1.jpg


^^

A 400$ laptop would most likely have a CPU in the cost of 50-60$ for the OEM.

No.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215389
http://ark.intel.com/products/53442/Intel-Core-i3-2370M-Processor-3M-Cache-2_40-GHz
Recommended Customer Price TRAY: $225.00
So tray pricing is $225, meaning that's what the OEMs pay.
 
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BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
392
0
0
That doesn't mean just the plastic around the processor but the processor and SoC itself. If you're buying Intel, you're buying only Intel. That's it. You can't take an Intel x86 core and slap it in your own SoC. You can't make an Intel processor elsewhere but only at Intel's fabs. If Intel makes an SoC, that's what you're getting. If you want something else, tough luck.

That's a huge negative.
No, it's not. There's a decreasing need for customization. Why do PC manufacturers not design their own CPUs? Because it's an established platform with computing needs that can be delivered by a handful of designs, created by only a few CPU manufacturers. The same thing is happening with mobile phones and tablets. There's not much differentiation left, and its cheaper to get an off-the-shelf chip with a few too many features, than to design a SoC which cuts out those features.
- If Apple needs a bigger beefier GPU to drive its massive amount of pixels, is there any conceivable way to put in a bigger GPU into an Intel SoC if Intel doesn't make it? No. You'd have to look elsewhere.
It's well established now that a retina display is a useful feature. But the pixel count isn't going to increase much further. So for a brief moment Apple needed a customized chip, but now everyone needs the same thing.
- If Amazon wants a smaller SoC without as much processing power as a movie-and-reading tablet, would they go and buy the big and powerful x86 SoC? No, they'd go elsewhere (or in their case just buy TI's OMAP division and make their own).
That market is too low profit for Intel to bother. Amazon wants to sell books, and doesn't make much if any profit on hardware.
- If a company needs very good LTE service for a smartphone, where do they go? Intel doesn't offer it. What if Qualcomm offers a better deal for their SoC with the LTE included than they would for offering the licensing for it?
Again this is something that will settle down and become a universal need.
We've also been hearing this from Intel for a few years now and they have yet to deliver. You're assuming it's already a done deal. And that's quite an assumption.
Intel would be stupid not to be working on a few 14 nm chips which align with the needs of 90% of the mobile market in a couple years from now. I don't think Intel is stupid. That's not much of an assumption.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
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Again this is something that will settle down and become a universal need.

It's already a universal need. It's the reason Qualcomm makes so much money. But because of IPs, Qualcomm is currently the only maker of great LTE chips. So if you want very good LTE in an Intel SoC, guess who Intel is going to?
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106

Nope. Its a listprice. And you never pay the list price when you negotiate. I wonder if you are just being stupid now or simply ignorant.

This is below the list price too:
http://www.microcenter.com/product/388577/Core_i5_3570K_34GHz_LGA_1155_Processor

Yet I am sure MC still makes money on it. When you negotaite with HP, dell, MS etc. its also relatively easy to get 20-40% discounts from listprice.