Solved! ARM Apple High-End CPU - Intel replacement

[Richie Rich]

There is a first rumor about Intel replacement in Apple products:

• ARM based high-end CPU
• 8 cores, no SMT
• IPC +30% over Cortex A77
• desktop performance (Core i7/Ryzen R7) with much lower power consumption
• introduction with new gen MacBook Air in mid 2020 (considering also MacBook PRO and iMac)
• massive AI accelerator

Source Coreteks:

 

[Yotsugi]

Source Coreteks

It's like you intentionally tried to pick the worst "source" imaginable.

 

[Nothingness]

There is a first rumor about Intel replacement in Apple products:

First rumor? You're late to the party by at least 8 years.

For instance: https://www.macstories.net/news/rumor-apple-to-replace-intel-chips-with-arm-processors-on-laptops/

 

[soresu]

IPC +30% over Cortex A77

That's not news, this corresponds to Ax chips already in production products according to Geekbench.

 

[NostaSeronx]

Yes, no, and yes! It will of course be using Explosion-Big and Firebolt-Little, running at 20 GHz and 10 GHz on TSMC's N5 Super node. It will wreck everything in all existence, past-present-future. It will make you money for free, and cure all problems with its massive beyond-human brain NPU. Buy one today at the Apple Store, but before you do that be sure to buy a pass of usage for $999*. *Comes with a monthly charge of $999.

 

[scannall]

Some random guys youtube channel isn't exactly definitive...

 

[amrnuke]

There is a first rumor about Intel replacement in Apple products:

• ARM based high-end CPU
• 8 cores, no SMT
• IPC +30% over Cortex A77
• desktop performance (Core i7/Ryzen R7) with much lower power consumption
• introduction with new gen MacBook Air in mid 2020 (considering also MacBook PRO and iMac)
• massive AI accelerator

Source Coreteks:

ARM - well, of course, since Apple have been using ARM in pseudo-laptops (iPads) and touch-screen laptops (iPhones) for years now

8 cores, no SMT - wouldn't be surprised given that ARM have previously said SMT implementation is 46% more power-hungry than just doubling the core count

IPC - I mean, A13 single-core 5400s is already 50+% faster than the prelim A77 scores. This isn't a bold prediction, unless Apple somehow regress their single-core IPC on a new design.

Desktop performance - the A12X and A13 bionic already meet up nicely with the single-core performance in GeekBench for instance of many standard desktop CPUs like the the 2600X and i3-9100, and a ton of other recent chips

Mid-2020 - seems fairly easy to plop an "A13X Bionic" 8-core into a glorified tablet with a keyboard.

Massive AI accelerator - nonspecific enough to never have to be held responsible - Apple's had the Neural Engine and ML framework to leverage the CPU, GPU, and NE for AI acceleration tasks since 2017 with the A12 Bionic which was already "massive" at 8 cores (compared to the 6 core CPU and 4 core GPU on the chip). Not as much a prediction as a statement of what's been going on for years.


This is of course no knock on YOU, but these are really weak-sauce predictions.

 

[Steelbom]

I don't see Apple ever using non Intel/AMD CPUs in their products. The app compatibility issue isn't worth it.

 

[soresu]

I don't see Apple ever using non Intel/AMD CPUs in their products. The app compatibility issue isn't worth it.

They have done it before with Rosetta/POWER/x86, though I think it more likely that they would simply encourage software suppliers to make the jump long before they do so with hardware.

I believe that iPad OS is the beginning of this strategy for them, given its push towards a more laptop like feature set (keyboard/mouse/memory cards/USB C).

As to AMD, Apple have still yet to make a Mac using an AMD CPU as far as I am aware - even with Surface dipping its toes in to those waters I would not expect Apple to do the same until Intel are truly floundering, considering they were not even top dog when Apple made the jump to x86 in the first place.

 

[soresu]

IPC - I mean, A13 single-core 5400s is already 50+% faster than the prelim A77 scores. This isn't a bold prediction, unless Apple somehow regress their single-core IPC on a new design.

I've seen a score at 4100 for A77, I think it was an early SD 865.

Link here.

It doesn't put a massive dent in that 50% number, but it certainly won't be as high as that when 865 launches.

 

[turtile]

They have done it before with Rosetta/POWER/x86, though I think it more likely that they would simply encourage software suppliers to make the jump long before they do so with hardware.

I think at this point, it makes much more sense to modify the OS and allow the software to emulate an x86 processor.

 

[soresu]

8 cores, no SMT - wouldn't be surprised given that ARM have previously said SMT implementation is 46% more power-hungry than just doubling the core count

Do you have a link to that?

I'm trying to find all the ARM SMT quotes, there doesn't seem to be a wealth of them.

 

[soresu]

I think at this point, it makes much more sense to modify the OS and allow the software to emulate an x86 processor.

Hence the Rosetta part, though native performance will always be better - better performance, better power consumption.

 

[soresu]

Yes, no, and yes! It will of course be using Explosion-Big and Firebolt-Little, running at 20 GHz and 10 GHz on TSMC's N5 Super node. It will wreck everything in all existence, past-present-future. It will make you money for free, and cure all problems with its massive beyond-human brain NPU. Buy one today at the Apple Store, but before you do that be sure to buy a pass of usage for $999*. *Comes with a monthly charge of $999.

Comes with a free ride on the SpaceX Starship too!

 

[SPBHM]

it makes perfect sense for them to expand their ARM SoCs into laptops,
the performance of high end phones is really already up there, and it's their own chip, their own design...

actually ever since the A7 it looked like an obvious path.

 

[Glo.]

There is a first rumor about Intel replacement in Apple products:

• ARM based high-end CPU
• 8 cores, no SMT
• IPC +30% over Cortex A77
• desktop performance (Core i7/Ryzen R7) with much lower power consumption
• introduction with new gen MacBook Air in mid 2020 (considering also MacBook PRO and iMac)
• massive AI accelerator

Source Coreteks:

********

And you know perfectly well what that means.

 

[amrnuke]

Do you have a link to that?

I'm trying to find all the ARM SMT quotes, there doesn't seem to be a wealth of them.

Link

 

[soresu]

Link

I did not expect it to be so old, before Cortex A8 even.

I would be surprised if their opinions haven't changed some since then, that was literally just after Intel released Core2 Conroe without HyperThreading.

I imagine some in the industry took that as a knock against the technology and felt it was fair game to do likewise.

Also there has been a great amount of research and uArch patents since then, the fact that they implemented SMT on their 'next' little core A65 implies they have at least started considering it in a more advantageous light.

It might be interesting to see how the area of A55 compares to A65 at iso process, bearing in mind that A65 is also a 3 wide OoO core on top of using SMT.

I'm still waiting on a concrete set of benchmarks since it's announcement a year ago.

 

[Mopetar]

I don't see Apple ever using non Intel/AMD CPUs in their products. The app compatibility issue isn't worth it.

I could see them partnering with someone like AMD to build a custom chip that has both ARM and x86 cores on it and using that during a transition period. Obviously Apple could run the OS and own applications on ARM because they have control over the code and could rewrite it. Legacy applications could be run on x86 cores as developers transition off of them over several years. Eventually the x86 cores just get replaced with emulation/translation for anything that won't get a modern/updated release.

 

[chrisjames61]

I don't see Apple ever using non Intel/AMD CPUs in their products. The app compatibility issue isn't worth it.

It is only a matter of time. Apple did this during the 68K to PPC transition and the PPC to X86 transition. Both times flawlessly.

 

[Ajay]

Well, if we just keep repeating this rumor every 6 months, it will come true...probably even before we finally find a real unicorn

 

[soresu]

Well, if we just keep repeating this rumor every 6 months, it will come true...probably even before we finally find a real unicorn

Evidence would seem to suggest that under His Royal Darkness (Lord Jobs) Apple was a great deal more willing to make such leaps in the market.

Today it seems somewhat more cautious under Tim Cook, so they may be in a holding pattern of "if our home grown stuff is x better, then we will move", but this probably will keep getting pushed back by Intel making fevered bids to keep their products in Apple line ups - after all they've done it elsewhere, and Apple is no less a contested market for them.

 

[NTMBK]

I mean obviously they're going to put SMT4 in it

 

[amrnuke]

I mean obviously they're going to put SMT4 in it

And 5 GHz

 

[soresu]

And 5 GHz

And 12 ALU's !!