Arizona signs immigration bill into law

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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,633
35,414
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most of the time, unless i am driving, i never carry id or even a wallet. will let you know when i get arrested. ;)

as far as the law, cop pulls you over, you have no id or dl, or say you do - vehicle registration - no? insurance card - no? kind of starts to not look good for you which it wouldn't for anybody.

As the driver you better have your DL and other documents, as driving is a privilege, subject to regulation.

If you are a passenger then there would be no need for proof of legal status, except under this new law.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Stupid law that will be challenged instantly on the grounds of 4th amendment. Actually 5th also.

How can you ask an illegal about his/her immigration statue without self-incrimination?

Illegals dont have the same constitutional rights you and I have.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Do you feel illegal immigration is a problem? Do you feel it needs to be addressed? All this feigned outrage when we know full well you wish the country as a whole to take no action against those that break our laws and come here illegally.

No, I don't "feel" illegal immigration is a problem; I KNOW it's a problem, and I KNOW it has to be addressed. That said, my outrage is anything but "feigned." The Arizona statue is blatantly unconstitutional violation of the right to freedom from unwarranted searches. Have you ever read the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? It says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To be "secure in their persons" means people cannot be searched, seized, or violated without a lawfully issued warrant, and the Fourth Amendment further extends those protections to cover a person's house, papers and effects.

Do you think a person's passport would be among the items included within the concept of "papers and effects?"

Your wallet analogy is transparent. You know damned well illegals are not going to be carrying a passport - hello?. For uber liberal states that issue them drivers licenses, if they don't have it, they can tell the officer who can punch in their name and bring it up - with a picture.

That's nice. Do YOU carry your passport at all times? Are you absolutely sure you've never lostyour wallet or accidentally left your home without it?

Do you really want to spend a lot of time at some police station explaining exactly why you don't have any ID with you just because some cop thinks you happen to look like you aren't a citizen? Do they have alien detecting radar? If so, how reliable and accurate is it, anyhow?

My parents used to live in Sun City. The crime committed by illegals is in part what drove them out of the state and that was 12 years ago. I bet Police radios are going near constantly with descriptions of Hispanic males in regards to crime. Should the Police ignore those? Under what circumstances would you approve of the Police asking for ID?

I didn't say there's not a problem. I know there is. I live in L.A., and I see it every day. I'm saying the Arizona statute is unconstitutional, and, as such, it is not a viable solution.

To put it another way, the reason the Fourth Amendment was added to the Constitution is because the founding fathers wanted to bar such abuses by magistrates of British crown. With this law, Arizona is relenquishing those Constitutional rights.

Believe it or not, I'm not in disagreement with the potential for abuse along with the potential for this setting a bad precedent. However, the governor of Arizona has to accept the ultimate responsibility for protecting the citizens of her state. As I said in an earlier post, Arizona, and the nation as a whole has been waiting decades for a solution to this problem. In this case, how much longer should she wait? With the violence going on in Mexico spilling over the border on a regular basis, what is she to do?

Good! Then try to remember exactly what it is you want to defend. If it isn't our Constituitonal rights, you're giving up the very core values of our nation people have fought and died to defend for over two centuries. If that happens, and the bigots and wannabe nazis have their way, there will be no United States of America left to defend. :'(
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,633
35,414
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I also wonder how they are going to pay for this. Probably just raise taxes.

These are Arizona Republicans. They don't raise taxes. They sell the state capitol building, gut the schools, shut down the rest areas and state parks, furlough employees, cut aid to poor kids, but they don't raise taxes. When their backs were up against the wall with the latest economic bust, they cravenly refused to raise taxes themselves to cover record deficits but instead placed a measure on the ballot to raise the state sales tax, the most regressive form of taxation. If the tax passes, they get to spend the money while maintaining their pledge to Grover Norquist. If it fails, they further gut state services (except prisons, they like prisons, they love prisons) and blame the loss of services on the voters. Politically clever but tragic for the people of Arizona.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Particularly when it doesn't affect you personally. Some of us are going to have to live with this bullshit.

If my state adopted this I would champion it as well. We're a horse state (kentucky) so there are lots of mexicans all over and I'm happy to welcome them to our country and state. Not to get off topic too much but I've had many run ins with the law, been in jail a couple times and you know what? I deserved every bit of it.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
True. They can't vote or serve on juries. But they do have the protection of the 5th amendment and they do have the right to due process.

By appearance, alone, how does an officer know who is and isn't a citizen? And how do they know who is and isn't a legal resident alien, or a legal tourist or business traveller, as opposed to an illegal alien? :confused:

I could see Arizona regretting this when the income the derive from tourism and legal cross-border shopping fall through the floor. And there will be the issue of being known worldwide as the bigotry capital of the United States. :hmm:
 
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GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Illegals dont have the same constitutional rights you and I have.

Geez, this thread makes me sad on so many levels.

Do you have a clue that the Constitution does apply to *anyone* that is the US, illegal alien, legal alien, or citizen?

Read a government book or take a class when you hit high school.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
It says "LAWFUL CONTACT". It does not give them the right to stop anyone just to check their id. Stop watching media reports and read the actual bill.

yea no shit. it amazed me how the sheep follow the talking heads (on both sides)
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Geez, this thread makes me sad on so many levels.

Do you have a clue that the Constitution does apply to *anyone* that is the US, illegal alien, legal alien, or citizen?

Read a government book or take a class when you hit high school.

can illegals vote? can illegals serve on a jury? im thinking you are the one who need the class.
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,625
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can illegals vote? can illegals serve on a jury? im thinking you are the one who need the class.

They cannot do things that citizens are allowed to do, but they still have the rights afforded to "persons" (ie: due process, right to not self incriminate, etc...)
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
can illegals vote? can illegals serve on a jury? im thinking you are the one who need the class.

Do illegals get a trial? Yes

Do they get miranda warnings? Yes

If charged with a crime, do they get all the protections of the (city,state,federal) court system, just like any US citizen? Yes

Do we get to murder illegals out of hand since they aren't US citizens? Of course not.

Can we torture them to admit guilt? Of course not.

So yes, illegals have the same constitutional rights that we have. Now *specific* laws and parts that require citizen status, obviously not, but that isn't what we are talking about.

Nick1985 was talking about 4th and 5th amendment rights, which *everyone* that happens to be in the US has. citizen or not.

So no, I don't need a book. But nick1985 does, and maybe you do to. I'll wait for an apology.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
This is not unexpected. At all. Seriously, what did people expect?

95% of Arizona doesn't care much about illegal immigration, never has... illegal immigration has always been here. But for the last 10 years or so, are you kidding me? Unchecked, off-the-wall illegals, draining resources, drug and human smuggling skyrocketing, executions in the desert outside of town, 40 illegals imprisoned in homes rescued almost weekly throughout the valley, people getting killed along the border, vans crammed with 20 illegals rolling off roads all the time, the crime, the areas south of I-8 and I-10 looking like militarized zones... things have been coming to a head for years now. Something had to give.

Now with the disaster 'warzone' south of the border with bodies dissolved in acid, assassinations, and heads being discovered everywhere... all this combined with the above... really? Is anyone shocked?

Ideologically I'm pretty libertarian about the border... and I've lived here for 37 years, born and raised. But I could see this coming a mile away and I can't say I blame the Arizona legislature. It's reached a boiling point, the Feds can care less, and people are sick of it. Call it a backlash... but drastic events call for drastic action.

I'm not even sure it's all that drastic... it seems like the new law mirrors -and is no more aggressive- than the federal laws that aren't enforced.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
it will be a long long long wait.

Well, I can't help it if you didn't read the thread, and realize what everyone was talking about.

Do you deny that everyone in the US has 4/5th amendment rights?

Do you deny that they get a real, fair trial, just like you or me?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
This is not unexpected. At all. Seriously, what did people expect?

95% of Arizona doesn't care much about illegal immigration, never has... illegal immigration has always been here. But for the last 10 years or so, are you kidding me? Unchecked, off-the-wall illegals, draining resources, drug and human smuggling skyrocketing, executions in the desert outside of town, 40 illegals imprisoned in homes rescued almost weekly throughout the valley, people getting killed along the border, vans crammed with 20 illegals rolling off roads all the time, the crime, the areas south of I-8 and I-10 looking like militarized zones... things have been coming to a head for years now. Something had to give.

Now with the disaster 'warzone' south of the border with bodies dissolved in acid, assassinations, and heads being discovered everywhere... all this combined with the above... really? Is anyone shocked?

Ideologically I'm pretty libertarian about the border... and I've lived here for 37 years, born and raised. But I could see this coming a mile away and I can't say I blame the Arizona legislature. It's reached a boiling point, the Feds can care less, and people are sick of it. Call it a backlash... but drastic events call for drastic action.

I'm not even sure it's all that drastic... it seems like the new law mirrors -and is no more aggressive- than the federal laws that aren't enforced.

I see what you're saying, but is this bill really going to fix any of it? Or is it going to result in a lot of cops pulling people over for driving while Hispanic?
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
136
Your missing the lawful contact part of the law. They cannot just stop someone because of this law , they have to have them already stopped for another reason, the media leaves that out because it doesn't make a good story if they include it.


In your example they cannot stop the white guy because he is near the school. But if he gets out and loiters on school property then they can ask him for id because he would be trespassing.

Yeah.... Ok.... RiGhT.... We get it.... rIgHt....

ANd I want so much to be there to watch your face when you get stopped for some simple traffic voilation, then are also asked, "btw sir, have you molested a child lately.... ? You look like a... a... pervert........ sir".
 
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sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
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10 Things the cops should NOT ask you when pulled over for only a burnt out tail light:

1. Would you blow me for special treatment?
2. Where is your wife... did you murder her? Is she in the trunk?
3. Are you white or kinda white/black mixed?
4. Are you a child molester.
5. Is that your teen daughter in the back seat? Do you have sex with her?
6. Did you rob a 7-11 to afford this car?
7. Do you know only fags buy red cars like this one?
8. Is that a hair piece your wearing?
9. So just where were you on the morning of 9/11?
10. Are you an illegal alien? Do you have papers of proof.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,866
6,396
126
I'm no Lawyer, but it seems odd that a State can make a Law pertaining to Federal Jurisdiction(Citizenship/Immigration). I think the Wording of this Law could be its' downfall, that being that the intent is to Detain People for possibly breaking Laws beyond the Jurisdiction of the State Government.

Law will likely get shot down, but might spur some Action on the Federal level.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
LOL@Obama

"If we fail to act at the federal level...."

Obama, the only need to act at the federal level is to enforce the laws currently on the books.

Obama is the reason why there is no action on the federal level, not congress.

Obama needs to get over himself and listen to the CITIZENS and LEGAL IMMIGRANTS and start enforcing current law.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
I'm no Lawyer, but it seems odd that a State can make a Law pertaining to Federal Jurisdiction(Citizenship/Immigration). I think the Wording of this Law could be its' downfall, that being that the intent is to Detain People for possibly breaking Laws beyond the Jurisdiction of the State Government.

Law will likely get shot down, but might spur some Action on the Federal level.

How bout we ship all the illegals we find to Canada? I'm sure you Canadians are super hospitable.

---

That's four bigoted posts in a row. How about we ship you elsewhere for a week? I'm sure you'll find hate group forums super hospitable.

Harvey
Senion AnandTech Moderator/Administrator
 
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