Are you happy with America?

[soulcougher73]

It's not your land, lol.

Whos land is it?

 

[Tom]

Politically motivated hysteria or not, these people ARE here illegally and ARE a drain on society.

I would rather not have to pay for them. Period.

Were the Irish a drain on society ? What about the Germans ? Scandinavians ?

The current immigrants are no different than any one else, they work, they increase gdp, they increase productivity and grow the economy.

You aren't paying for them, they are keeping you rich.

 

[Moonbeam]

Can you be more specific?

I: People not understanding how fragile the democracy that underpins our freedom/liberty is.

M: Why?

I: Our culture does not seemed to have adopted to certain modern realities: people are too materialistic despite wealth, stupid despite amazing educational opportunities, unhealthy and overworked despite scientific and technological advancements.

M: Why?

 

[SP33Demon]

Overall, things are great.

Thing I learned to get to where I am (great and not shtty):
1) Get an education.
2) Work hard when possible, go the extra mile even when it sucks.
3) Stop watching the media bullsht (O'Reilly/Rush/Matthews/Olberman) and think for yourself.
4) Always try to improve yourself.
5) If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. And the Golden Rule.

 

[kalrith]

Politically motivated hysteria or not, these people ARE here illegally and ARE a drain on society.

I would rather not have to pay for them. Period.

Were the Irish a drain on society ? What about the Germans ? Scandinavians ?

The current immigrants are no different than any one else, they work, they increase gdp, they increase productivity and grow the economy.

You aren't paying for them, they are keeping you rich.

The Irish, Germans, and Scandinavians were all here illegally, and most of them didn't pay income taxes? That's news to me!!!

If you'll notice the bold in drebo's quote, he's talking about illegal immigrants. People who have followed the laws, immigrated legally, and pay taxes are a plus rather than a drain.

The illegal Mexican neighbor I had (who was deported a few years ago) ran a lawn-care business, all in cash and under the table. He took jobs away from legal U.S. citizens and paid zero into the tax system even though his wife and kids (who were U.S. citizens) probably collected from the welfare system.

Please tell me how I'm not paying for people like that and how they're keeping me rich (which I'm not).

 

[shortylickens]

Overall, things are great.

Thing I learned to get to where I am (great and not shtty):
1) Get an education.
2) Work hard when possible, go the extra mile even when it sucks.
3) Stop watching the media bullsht (O'Reilly/Rush/Matthews/Olberman) and think for yourself.
4) Always try to improve yourself.
5) If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. And the Golden Rule.

Numbers 1-4 solve problems.
Number 5 does not. Number is the cowards answer to not dealing with stuff and hoping that some great savior fixes things for him. Last few decades people seem to think thats the presidents job. Probably because every president we've had recently has stated thats his job.

 

[SP33Demon]

Numbers 1-4 solve problems.
Number 5 does not. Number is the cowards answer to not dealing with stuff and hoping that some great savior fixes things for him. Last few decades people seem to think thats the presidents job. Probably because every president we've had recently has stated thats his job.

#5 more or less translates to staying positive. You're going to tell your boss they're a jackass? Good luck dude. There are always going to be things that people do that piss you off. Don't sweat the small stuff, remember what's important. Don't do something you wouldn't want done to you. It's really that simple.

 

[Infohawk]

I: People not understanding how fragile the democracy that underpins our freedom/liberty is.

M: Why?

I: Our culture does not seemed to have adopted to certain modern realities: people are too materialistic despite wealth, stupid despite amazing educational opportunities, unhealthy and overworked despite scientific and technological advancements.

M: Why?

Why is it bad that people do not understand how fragile our democracy? Or why is our democracy fragile?

 

[woolfe9999]

Yes. America is not a bad country. America is a great country with serious problems. We'll probably muddle through them, as we always have in the past. And if we don't, hopefully the grand collapse occurs after I'm dead.

- wolf

 

[nonlnear]

Yes. America is not a bad country. America is a great country with serious problems. We'll probably muddle through them, as we always have in the past. And if we don't, hopefully the grand collapse occurs after I'm dead.

QFT.

It's still the best place in the world for somebody who thinks like me, even if it's not perfect. Then again if it were my vision of perfection I'm sure there would be plenty of people with a different perspective cursing the injustice of it all. C'est la vie.

 

[heyheybooboo]

I've lived through a few crisis, race riots, would nixon obey court, hyperinflation,

basically, things are pretty good right now.

immigration isnt a real issue, just haters. immigration is a plus.
terrorism- pretty insignificant really, and as long as we dont spend the summer at the ranch we seem on top of it.

Ditto (but they can be a great deal better).

It took 8 years to really screw things up --- it will take at least that long to straighten things out.

Immigration, like abortion and deh gayness, is simply a wedge issue. The gub'ment is auditing many more employers and border crossings are way down .... and because of the economy many of the "undocumented" are going home. The Wing Nuts might not like it but the situation is getting better, not worse; and will not be totally solved without some type of complete reform.

It will be some time before we fully know how close we came to a complete global financial meltdown --- less than three years after-the-fact. I don't think we have felt the full impact as of yet. Banks are still well short of capital and the commercial real estate implosion has yet to seriously drag down the economy.

But for now ... sure beats the urban riots of the 60s, the Arab Oil Embargo, 'Nam and Nixon/Arthur Burns.




--

 

[shortylickens]

Ditto (but they can be a great deal better).

It took 8 years to really screw things up --- it will take at least that long to straighten things out.

Immigration, like abortion and deh gayness, is simply a wedge issue. The gub'ment is auditing many more employers and border crossings are way down .... and because of the economy many of the "undocumented" are going home. The Wing Nuts might not like it but the situation is getting better, not worse; and will not be totally solved without some type of complete reform.

It will be some time before we fully know how close we came to a complete global financial meltdown --- less than three years after-the-fact. I don't think we have felt the full impact as of yet. Banks are still well short of capital and the commercial real estate implosion has yet to seriously drag down the economy.

But for now ... sure beats the urban riots of the 60s, the Arab Oil Embargo, 'Nam and Nixon/Arthur Burns.

--

Given that I dont want ANY border crossing you will find it tough to convince people like me that it going down is a good thing. I want it stopped.
And 20,000 of 11,000,000 illegals leaving does not impress me as "many" either. Especially if 100,000 new ones come across to replace them. If all 20,000 of them came from my home state and I could see the difference when I walked around town, then I might be impressed.

Though I do agree it will take a long time to fix current issues. And many of them are not even 8 years old, they are from back in the 60's and 70's when government championed all kinds of changes but didnt actually make many.

 

[Jaskalas]

Immigration, like abortion and deh gayness, is simply a wedge issue.

Our land being seized and our people dying is not a damn wedge issue.

 

[Steeplerot]

Were the Irish a drain on society ? What about the Germans ? Scandinavians ?

The current immigrants are no different than any one else, they work, they increase gdp, they increase productivity and grow the economy.

You aren't paying for them, they are keeping you rich.

None of this matters to them. When did fiscal responsibility really count to these people except when it comes to labeling someone lazy (usually minorities) They are brown and probably will vote Democratic, what more reasons would you need, they are evil invaders!

 

[Craig234]

Yes. America is not a bad country. America is a great country with serious problems. We'll probably muddle through them, as we always have in the past. And if we don't, hopefully the grand collapse occurs after I'm dead.

- wolf

You can't say 'good' and 'bad' is big labels like that IMO.

The US was bad when it sided with the security forces who raped and killed nuns. The US was good when it liberated Nazi death camps.

Saying 'the nation is good/bad' ignores the good and bad of the actual mixed things it does.

And like sports tv watchers, a lot of what the nation does has little effect from most citizens. People who will claim moral superiority today for liberating death camps weren't there.

 

[Craig234]

Our land being seized and our people dying is not a damn wedge issue.

That's pretty drama queen. Who seized half of Mexico and killed their people, by the way?

If the US ran 95% of the world, some would say we're 'threatened' by the other 5%.

The US has *always* had immigrants - legal or not - as a 'wedge issue' politically pandering to the anti-immigrant bigotry. Right or wrong, that's the political history.

'No Dogs or Irish allowed inside'.

 

[woolfe9999]

You can't say 'good' and 'bad' is big labels like that IMO.

The US was bad when it sided with the security forces who raped and killed nuns. The US was good when it liberated Nazi death camps.

Saying 'the nation is good/bad' ignores the good and bad of the actual mixed things it does.

And like sports tv watchers, a lot of what the nation does has little effect from most citizens. People who will claim moral superiority today for liberating death camps weren't there.

Everything is mixed, Craig. Everything is shades of grey. Every nation does good and bad things. When I say America is "good," ("great" was actually the word I used and I stand by it), that is my overall assessment of this nation, in a relative sense. Relative meaning: compared to other nations. That assessment is based on a number of factors. Apart from economics, the fact that our speech is freer than any other democracy on the planet, bar none, is a very important one to me.

And I'll say something else, logically meaningless, but personally relevant. America is a great country because it's MY country. That doesn't mean my country right or wrong. It does mean I have a special feeling about it because it is the place of my birth and the setting of my life.

- wolf

 

[PieIsAwesome]

The Irish, Germans, and Scandinavians were all here illegally, and most of them didn't pay income taxes? That's news to me!!!

If you'll notice the bold in drebo's quote, he's talking about illegal immigrants. People who have followed the laws, immigrated legally, and pay taxes are a plus rather than a drain.

The illegal Mexican neighbor I had (who was deported a few years ago) ran a lawn-care business, all in cash and under the table. He took jobs away from legal U.S. citizens and paid zero into the tax system even though his wife and kids (who were U.S. citizens) probably collected from the welfare system.

Please tell me how I'm not paying for people like that and how they're keeping me rich (which I'm not).

Just curious, but what makes you think they were collecting welfare?

Things could be better, but over all I am happy with the way things are.

 

[Craig234]

Everything is mixed, Craig. Everything is shades of grey. Every nation does good and bad things. When I say America is "good," ("great" was actually the word I used and I stand by it), that is my overall assessment of this nation, in a relative sense. Relative meaning: compared to other nations. That assessment is based on a number of factors. Apart from economics, the fact that our speech is freer than any other democracy on the planet, bar none, is a very important one to me.

And I'll say something else, logically meaningless, but personally relevant. America is a great country because it's MY country. That doesn't mean my country right or wrong. It does mean I have a special feeling about it because it is the place of my birth and the setting of my life.

- wolf

Yes, and using a 'good/bad' label does what I said - hides much of the story.

Your latter definition makes the discussion pointless - every country then is equally 'great', defined as that by the people who live there 'because it's their country'.

By the way, our speech is not freer than any other democracy on the planet, by many measures, and on a related note, our citizens are among the most propagandized and they get some of the largest amounts of commercial advertising of any people in the world. It's not just the 'censorship' issue, it's a question of how well the country uses its right of free speech.

Not too well, for most. It's a very rich country for a very small percent of people who read the good books, magazines, and other sources (see my sig).

 

[ebaycj]

I: People not understanding how fragile the democracy that underpins our freedom/liberty is.

M: Why?

I: Our culture does not seemed to have adopted to certain modern realities: people are too materialistic despite wealth, stupid despite amazing educational opportunities, unhealthy and overworked despite scientific and technological advancements.

M: Why?

Why is it bad that people do not understand how fragile our democracy? Or why is our democracy fragile?

I believe he meant:
I: People not understanding how fragile the democracy that underpins our freedom/liberty is. It is not enough to have elections, we need an informed electorate and base of people. This takes many other forms.

Why do people not understand how fragile democracy is?
Why are people uninformed as a whole?

I: Our culture does not seemed to have adopted to certain modern realities:
Why have we not adapted to these realities?

people are too materialistic despite wealth,
Why ?

stupid despite amazing educational opportunities,
Why ?

unhealthy and overworked despite scientific and technological advancements.
Why ?

 

[Jaskalas]

'No Dogs or Irish allowed inside'.

I don't recall sealing off entire portions of states due to Irish Gangs killing people. Oh dear Craig please enlighten us how the present war against Americans even compares.

 

[woolfe9999]

Yes, and using a 'good/bad' label does what I said - hides much of the story.

Your latter definition makes the discussion pointless - every country then is equally 'great', defined as that by the people who live there 'because it's their country'.

By the way, our speech is not freer than any other democracy on the planet, by many measures, and on a related note, our citizens are among the most propagandized and they get some of the largest amounts of commercial advertising of any people in the world. It's not just the 'censorship' issue, it's a question of how well the country uses its right of free speech.

Not too well, for most. It's a very rich country for a very small percent of people who read the good books, magazines, and other sources (see my sig).

I said my personal comment was not a logical argument, just a personal comment.

You're wrong about speech. To my knowledge every other democracy bans more categories of speech than we do. Basically, every other democracy bans or restricts the same limited categories of speech that we do, plus other specific categories that we do not. If I'm wong, provide a counter example.

- wolf

 

[Tom]

The Irish, Germans, and Scandinavians were all here illegally, and most of them didn't pay income taxes? That's news to me!!!

If you'll notice the bold in drebo's quote, he's talking about illegal immigrants. People who have followed the laws, immigrated legally, and pay taxes are a plus rather than a drain.

The illegal Mexican neighbor I had (who was deported a few years ago) ran a lawn-care business, all in cash and under the table. He took jobs away from legal U.S. citizens and paid zero into the tax system even though his wife and kids (who were U.S. citizens) probably collected from the welfare system.

Please tell me how I'm not paying for people like that and how they're keeping me rich (which I'm not).

Whether they're legal or illegal doesn't really affect my point about the economic impact. They do work which increases GDP and keeps the economy growing. They buy things and pay taxes. They may not pay income tax, but neither do low wage citizens.

Lots of citizens who do jobs like lawn mowing work outside the system, that has little to do with your neighbor being an immigrant. Except that our relatively recent policy of making them illegal means the underground economy is larger than it needs to be.

And the argument they send money back to Mexico, what's wrong with that ? That process will make Mexico more liveable which will reduce people leaving for here.

As as being rich, I meant we are rich relative to people arounf the world who are really poor. As a country we are very rich.

 

[soulcougher73]

Whether they're legal or illegal doesn't really affect my point about the economic impact. They do work which increases GDP and keeps the economy growing. They buy things and pay taxes. They may not pay income tax, but neither do low wage citizens.

Lots of citizens who do jobs like lawn mowing work outside the system, that has little to do with your neighbor being an immigrant. Except that our relatively recent policy of making them illegal means the underground economy is larger than it needs to be.

And the argument they send money back to Mexico, what's wrong with that ? That process will make Mexico more liveable which will reduce people leaving for here.

As as being rich, I meant we are rich relative to people arounf the world who are really poor. As a country we are very rich.

Huh? They are illegal the minute the step foot onto US soil when not going through the proper LEGAL immigration steps. It has been this way since we set up immigration laws and processes.

 

[evident]

OP i think you are spot on with your post and I agree with every point you made. What can we do though besides listen to both sides bitch at each other. Third parties still aren't even viable yet.