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Are you for or against the Patriot Act?
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dualsmp
Golden Member
Against
Here is an analysis of the pertinent sections of Victory Act/Patriot Act II.
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration?s ?enemy combatant? definition to all American citizens who ?may? have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is ?any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.?) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn?t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person ?had inferred from conduct? that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the ?enemy combatant? terrorist designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.
SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of ?suspected terrorists? and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as ?terrorist.? These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.
SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.
SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the ?enemy combatant? designation.
SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.
SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.
SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.
SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.
SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: ?this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.?
SECTION 111 expands the definition of the ?enemy combatant? designation.
SECTION 122 restates the government?s newly announced power of ?surveillance without a court order.?
SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, ?thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.?
*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.
SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.
The government states that they must look at everything to ?determine? if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.
SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners? and medical examiners? operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton?s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.
SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.
SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.
SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.
SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.
SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to ?stop other unlawful activities.? It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.
SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.
SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures ? has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.
SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.
SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.
SECTION 402 is titled ?Providing Material Support to Terrorism.? The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.
SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.
SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or ?other criminals? to use encryption in the commission of a crime.
SECTION 408 creates ?lifetime parole? (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.
SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.
SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.
SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.
SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.
Here is an analysis of the pertinent sections of Victory Act/Patriot Act II.
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration?s ?enemy combatant? definition to all American citizens who ?may? have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is ?any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.?) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn?t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person ?had inferred from conduct? that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the ?enemy combatant? terrorist designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.
SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of ?suspected terrorists? and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as ?terrorist.? These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.
SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.
SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the ?enemy combatant? designation.
SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.
SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.
SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.
SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.
SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: ?this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.?
SECTION 111 expands the definition of the ?enemy combatant? designation.
SECTION 122 restates the government?s newly announced power of ?surveillance without a court order.?
SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, ?thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.?
*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.
SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.
The government states that they must look at everything to ?determine? if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.
SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners? and medical examiners? operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton?s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.
SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.
SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.
SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.
SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.
SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to ?stop other unlawful activities.? It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.
SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.
SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures ? has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.
SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.
SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.
SECTION 402 is titled ?Providing Material Support to Terrorism.? The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.
SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.
SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or ?other criminals? to use encryption in the commission of a crime.
SECTION 408 creates ?lifetime parole? (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.
SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.
SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.
SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.
SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.
You are saying that it was easy for Ben Franklin to say it, because he didn't put his life in danger to stand for liberty?
No, my friend, Ben Franklin stood up for liberty even though it could have easily cost him his life. The founding fathers were willing to die in a war for these freedoms, which a lot of people now want to give up to feel a little safer. How many people have nuclear weapons killed, and how many have police states killed? There is no comparison.
Jadow
Diamond Member
If we let the government do a little extra checking on people they ALREADY SUSPECT of being terrorists, or checking into foreigners in this country, its not like we're giving up everything and becoming Oceania in 1984. There's a LOT of wiggle room there. I am comfortable with what the government is doing. If they push it farther, I may not be, but right now, I see their increased security as completely reasonable.
Linflas
Lifer
You are aware that there are already law enforcement agencies using the powers granted in the Patriot Act for things other than terrorist related activites? Much like the RICO statutes have been used to go after many other targets besides the organized crime families the law was originally aimed at I have no doubt that the Patriot Act will be abused in a similar manner. And after the last session of the Supreme Court where we have justices willing to set aside the Constitution for 30 years I am not so sure we can count on the courts to uphold the Bill of Rights as many of us understand it today when push comes to shove.
Increased security is one thing, but there should be judicial review and checks and balances, not unilateral ability of the President to waive someone's constitutional rights by simply declaring him a "suspected terrorist." Right now they want to use that only on foreigners, but once it's codified, they'll use it elsewhere given a chance, especially since they can keep the whole thing secret. We are talking about Orwell's 1984 and Kafka's Trial combined here.
Jadow
Diamond Member
We are talking about Orwell's 1984 and Kafka's Trial combined here.
Yeah, but what about KEFKA? hahahahaha right click/ save target as
Yeah, but what about KEFKA? hahahahaha right click/ save target as
HombrePequeno
Diamond Member
If you want security, go live in China.
dualsmp
Golden Member
Here is a good read for anyone who thinks the Patriot Act I/II is just for foreigners. Let me also point out that this individual was trying to depose government officials (which is perfectly legal), and is not bogus as this article implies.
'Paper terrorist' gets five years in prison
By Jeff Cole
Madison - A Town of Fredonia man whom authorities have termed a "paper terrorist" was sentenced Friday to five years in prison for blitzing about three dozen Ozaukee County officials with thousands of bogus legal documents.
The case produced the first prison sentence to result from a special anti-terrorism Domestic Security Unit created by then-Attorney General Jim Doyle after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
Among its other duties, the unit investigates and prosecutes anti-government activists who try to intimidate government officials, police and citizens by filing false legal documents.
cont...
'Paper terrorist' gets five years in prison
By Jeff Cole
Madison - A Town of Fredonia man whom authorities have termed a "paper terrorist" was sentenced Friday to five years in prison for blitzing about three dozen Ozaukee County officials with thousands of bogus legal documents.
The case produced the first prison sentence to result from a special anti-terrorism Domestic Security Unit created by then-Attorney General Jim Doyle after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
Among its other duties, the unit investigates and prosecutes anti-government activists who try to intimidate government officials, police and citizens by filing false legal documents.
cont...
Jadow
Diamond Member
so, if I support the patriot act, or want increased security from terrorism, all of a sudden I should go live in china because I'm not worthy of being a free loving american. You guys are all such stand up freedom fighters for our country. Had you lived 230 years ago, you'd all have been dressing up like indians and dumping tea. Gimme a break. get a reality check. I guess our president, secretary of state, attorney general, hell, every member of congress who supported this legislation (a LOT of democrats) shoudl ALL GO TO F'ING CHINA.
Jadow
Diamond Member
what if we rolled back the patriot act, and because of it, 10 former soviet nuclear weapons were smuggled into this country, and our 10 largest cities were DESTROYED. That would really keep america strong, and protect our freedoms. I'd rather have a strong country where arabs have to take their shoes off more often at airports, than a weak one with no defense mechanism whatsoever.
He was giving China as an example of a country that is secure, but suffers from decreased human rights as a result.
My belief on this bit is something along the lines of Franklin's quote. I just don't think we can destroy what our country stands for for our own security. We let the terrorists win if we do that, as they would have ruined a free nation.
Jadow
Diamond Member
He was giving China as an example of a country that is secure, but suffers from decreased human rights as a result.
LOL China isn't secure at all. That's a joke. Anybody could walk in a plant a bomb in Bejing or Hong Kong. And corruption there is about the highest int eh world
LOL China isn't secure at all. That's a joke. Anybody could walk in a plant a bomb in Bejing or Hong Kong. And corruption there is about the highest int eh world
Flyermax2k3
Diamond Member
LMAO! Have you ever been to China? I already know the answer to this question is no, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a statement. It would be much more difficult to launch a terrorist attack against China than the U.S. China is a communist police state with an army of between 200-400 million. I'd like to see you (or anyone else for that matter) try getting a bomb in that country. China isn't the backwater country you seem to think it is.
Mean MrMustard
Diamond Member
I couldn't have said it better myself.
wirelessenabled
Platinum Member
Against, I'll take my chances with the terrorists, I KNOW the government will get me! (Rhetorically speaking)
Having had the experience of having the local deputy sheriff try to plant a baggie of dope on me when I was 18 I know where the law enforcement folks heads are. Ashcroft gives me the creeps as much as S. Hussein.
Having had the experience of having the local deputy sheriff try to plant a baggie of dope on me when I was 18 I know where the law enforcement folks heads are. Ashcroft gives me the creeps as much as S. Hussein.
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