Are XBOX360 2x anti-aliasing claims bogus?

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
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Well, I did not notice this on my FIRST xbox360. The one that died in 6 hours. But my second XBOX360 seems to have a severe lack of anti-aliasing while playing PGR3. Is anyone else noticing this?

I am pretty tired of hearing people dismiss it as my setup, because my setup is pretty diverse.

1) Samsung 6168 61" 1080p DLP TV with both VGA and Component. XBOX360 connected via component and set to both 720p, then 1080i. Then connected via VGA cable running at 1366x768, 1280x1024, and finaly 1280x720.

2) Dell 2405FPW 24" lcd monitor. XBOX360 connected via component and set to both 720p, then 1080i. Then connected via VGA cable running at 1366x768, 1280x1024, and finaly 1280x720.

3) Samsung Syncmaster 912N 1280x1024 4:3 LCD monitor. XBOX360 connected via VGA at native 1280x1024.

4) Also tried a friends 42" Pioneer Plasma via VGA & componenet at all above settings.

On ALL of these I see nearly identical Aliasing. Yes on some it is enhanced more by edge enhancement or contrast. But I see no anti-aliasing to speak of in PGR3 other than in Car selection mode and "photo mode".

Here are some very high resolution photos from the Dell and the Samsung TV.

Dell:
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269512-O.jpg
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269484-O.jpg
Samsung TV:
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50096601-O.jpg
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50340924-O.jpg


Here is a photo of what the game looks like on the Dell when in "photomode"
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269524-O.jpg

And my Dashboard is NOT aliasing.
 

imported_Noob

Senior member
Dec 4, 2004
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Both the games lack anti-aliasing. Hopefully just first generation though. And btw what is the max AA setting on the R500?
 

Yreka

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
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I notice jaggies quite a bit on PGR. I haven't played COD2 on the XBOX yet, probibly won't as I already have it for PC.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
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Try running it on the Dell 2405FPW monitor in 1:1 mode (so 1280x720 res, but not scaled up to full-screen). That will eliminate monitor scaling and let you see exactly what the XBox360 is putting out.

Also, 2xAA will *not* completely eliminate aliasing. It just reduces its appearance somewhat. If you're expecting to not be able to see any jaggies at 1280x720 (even with very heavy AA), you're going to be disappointed.
 

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
8
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Yes, and on the PC running at 1280x720 with 2x anti-aliasing it looks like this:
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269719-O.jpg

But on my Xbox360 running on the same display, supposedly with the same resolution and 2x anti-aliasing. It looks like this:

http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269741-O.jpg

Try running it on the Dell 2405FPW monitor in 1:1 mode (so 1280x720 res, but not scaled up to full-screen). That will eliminate monitor scaling and let you see exactly what the XBox360 is putting out.

Also, 2xAA will *not* completely eliminate aliasing. It just reduces its appearance somewhat. If you're expecting to not be able to see any jaggies at 1280x720 (even with very heavy AA), you're going to be disappointed.

I'll try your suggestion.

As for the 2x anti-aliasing not getting rid of ALL aliasing. Yes, I am aware of it's limitations. But I think these COD photo's best illustrate my point.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: ajlb
Yes, and on the PC running at 1280x720 with 2x anti-aliasing it looks like this:
http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269719-O.jpg

But on my Xbox360 running on the same display, supposedly with the same resolution and 2x anti-aliasing. It looks like this:

http://mr-whiskey.smugmug.com/photos/50269741-O.jpg

Try running it on the Dell 2405FPW monitor in 1:1 mode (so 1280x720 res, but not scaled up to full-screen). That will eliminate monitor scaling and let you see exactly what the XBox360 is putting out.

Also, 2xAA will *not* completely eliminate aliasing. It just reduces its appearance somewhat. If you're expecting to not be able to see any jaggies at 1280x720 (even with very heavy AA), you're going to be disappointed.

I'll try your suggestion.

As for the 2x anti-aliasing not getting rid of ALL aliasing. Yes, I am aware of it's limitations. But I think these COD photo's best illustrate my point.

It's hard to tell with blurry JPEGs, but the second shot still looks like AA is being applied, but the model and texture detail is not as good to begin with. There's also some weird artifacting around the gun barrel (it's got a 'halo'), but I don't know if that is from the display, the camera, or what.
 

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
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The model detail in COD2 is supposed to be identical to the PC version. In fact, some elements are supposed to be more detailed. So claims activision anyhow.

If you are referring to the comandos in the foreground, they are being processed by the heat shimmer and thus lose some detail and get blurred.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: ajlb
The model detail in COD2 is supposed to be identical to the PC version. In fact, some elements are supposed to be more detailed. So claims activision anyhow.

If you are referring to the comandos in the foreground, they are being processed by the heat shimmer and thus lose some detail and get blurred.

Okay. That's going to make it VERY hard to tell what differences there are, since the shimmer effect is going to screw with it (not to mention the fact that you're taking a shot of a scene where you're on a moving vehicle).

Can you find a shot of something static? With no weird graphical effects being applied?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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I took 3 quick shots on my Sony 51" HDTV. I spent zero time setting anything up, so my apologies about the quality of the pics. (I can take a little more time this afternoon, if you want some better shots.) Hopefully they are good enough to show that there seems to be someting wrong on your side. PGR3 and CoD2 definitely do not look that bad here.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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Originally posted by: Wingznut
I took 3 quick shots on my Sony 51" HDTV. I spent zero time setting anything up, so my apologies about the quality of the pics. (I can take a little more time this afternoon, if you want some better shots.) Hopefully they are good enough to show that there seems to be someting wrong on your side. PGR3 and CoD2 definitely do not look that bad here.
Now that I look at them, I did a horrible job taking those pics! :eek:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Yeah, if you are going to try and show image quality you have to at least hold your camara still. ;)

And Photo Mode isn't it question, it is the gameplay where there is a clear lack of AA. CoD2 is lacking in the AA too, though it does seem to be doing some selective AA in the full version while the shots above are of the pre-release demo. I'll get some shots of the full version and some from my PC as well to compare.
 

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
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Mattias, your suggestion was very eye opening. It makes perfect sense and I am ashamed that I did not think of it ;) But I greatly appreciate the suggestion.

Have a look at the results...

1) This is photomode, but not after taking a photo, just to move the camera around and adjust the contrast. Looks great eh?

Pic1

2) These two are taken just after pausing the gameplay. Not so great, but you are right. There is anti-aliasing going on. It is just not enough, and the games scaling from 600p to 720p is probably adding some nasty aliasing.

Pic2
Pic3 Zoomed a bit
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Resolution scaling doesn't make jaggies like that. SDTV doesn't look jaggie just because you run it at 720p or whatever and neither should a well AAed video game either.

But anyway, here are the CoD2 comparison shots I promised; CoD2 PC at 1280x720 with x2aa on a X800xt-pe vs CoD2 on the 360.

Sorry about the difference in FOV as that is just how the game is on each version and I can't figure out how to adjust it on the PC version, but the fact that CoD2 on the 360 is sorely lacking in AA should still be obvious.

Oh, but for good AA and AF on a 360 game, download the Condemned demo; that will show you the power of the 360.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Yeah, if you are going to try and show image quality you have to at least hold your camara still. ;)
I know... I'll do better next time, I promise! ;)
And Photo Mode isn't it question, it is the gameplay where there is a clear lack of AA. CoD2 is lacking in the AA too, though it does seem to be doing some selective AA in the full version while the shots above are of the pre-release demo. I'll get some shots of the full version and some from my PC as well to compare.
My pics aren't in photo mode. Just a Race Against the Clock game, where I stopped in the middle of the track.

I'll try and get some of CoD2 also, if I get the chance.

 

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
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I think with PGR3 it is a scaling issue.

The game renders at 600p, probably gets anti-aliased before it is scaled up to 720p. Then, if you have a giant TV like mine, it gets scaled up again (1080p). The aliasing that gets introduced from scaling at 600-720p is compounded.

And yeah, condemned does a better job. Too bad the models and textures are so shoddy :( The character models for the cops and main character make me think of talking potatoes :D

Another good game to reference is DOA4. Which looks very well rendered (I just wish they went for more expressive character faces instead of the barbie and ken doll look)

_______________________________

I should share this story though.

I called support about the anti-aliasing issue with PGR3. The first time I called, I got a guy who immediately acknowledged the poor anti-aliasing issue. He said it was a problem of MS and the developers arguing over who is responsible and suggested it was going on with Bungie and EA as well over Halo2 emulation and Madden NFL. Then he got cut off (was he too candid? Or was it a bad line? Hard to say...)

I called back. The guy I got walked me through a bunch of idiot tests to make sure I had everything connected properly etc and then said "We are going to send you a box". I.E. we want your Xbox360 and will repair or replace it. Ugh... at this point, I think I am going to tell them I'll wait it out a bit. I highly doubt they'd send me a new xbox or repaired one that does a better job with anti-aliasing. Even though both my self and my wife think the first xbox360 was handling the aliasing better for some reason...hmmm...
 

RobertR1

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2004
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The limit of the xbox 360 is 4xAA so expect next gen titles to incorporate that. Still, 4xAA at 720P shown on a 50+ inch HDTV will show a fair amount of jaggies.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: ajlb
I think with PGR3 it is a scaling issue.

The game renders at 600p, probably gets anti-aliased before it is scaled up to 720p. Then, if you have a giant TV like mine, it gets scaled up again (1080p). The aliasing that gets introduced from scaling at 600-720p is compounded.
Again, descent upscaling isn't going to add alising like that. Take even a little 320x200 video recording and run it full screen on your monitor and won't show alaising like PGR3. The alaising in PGR3 is becuase there isn't much AA there to begin with.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Mar 11, 2004
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Originally posted by: RobertR1
The limit of the xbox 360 is 4xAA so expect next gen titles to incorporate that. Still, 4xAA at 720P shown on a 50+ inch HDTV will show a fair amount of jaggies.

Actually, I think 4x is the maximum of the little chip thats supposed to give "free" AA. I think the GPU itself could be programmed to add more, but I kinda doubt they would do that.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: xtknight
Looks very similar to this at 0xAA: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/wolf-640x480-ps-scaling.png
Even worse than that because that was a photoshopped (higher quality) simulation.

Looks very similar to this at 2xMSAA: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/wolf-640x480-2xaa-ps-scaling.png
Again worse than that as well.

RGAA almost eliminates all those artifacts though.

It can be attributed to a bad scaler IMO. My VP930b certainly isn't too good at it either at 648x480.

Those pics look the same, you didn't have AA working in either. And why did you scale a 4:3 resolution to a 5:4 one? I can post some decent upsampled shots from 600p to 720p with and without AA if need be.
 

compgeek89

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2004
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Well, this is the first thing I noticed when I played COD2 on 360 after my PC "Whoa the jaggies!".

But all the 360 fanboys will tell you you're a noob and they're not really there.


EVEN try PS3 forums, there are people defending the 360 like total nubcakes. Aquanox is the big one, man, you'd think he was Bill Gates.
 

ajlb

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2006
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Lol, no problem man. You are using auto I take it? Try going to sports mode on your cameras exposure settings, or manual and setting a high ISO with a high shutter speed. You are getting focus and motion blur because your cameras shutter speed is too low.