Are XBOX360 2x anti-aliasing claims bogus?

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: xtknight
Looks very similar to this at 0xAA: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/wolf-640x480-ps-scaling.png
Even worse than that because that was a photoshopped (higher quality) simulation.

Looks very similar to this at 2xMSAA: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/wolf-640x480-2xaa-ps-scaling.png
Again worse than that as well.

RGAA almost eliminates all those artifacts though.

It can be attributed to a bad scaler IMO. My VP930b certainly isn't too good at it either at 648x480.

Those pics look the same, you didn't have AA working in either. And why did you scale a 4:3 resolution to a 5:4 one? I can post some decent upsampled shots from 600p to 720p with and without AA if need be.

Because he is also scaling different aspect ratios.

Dell: 16:9->16:10
Samsung: 16:9->5:4

They are not the same. The second one has 2xMSAA enabled on a 7800GT. The difference was obvious when they were at the original size, but I didn't keep the original ones. It is still pretty evident if you look at the edges. The second one's lines appear fuzzy blurry while the first one's are raw and jagged.

The best thing to do is use 1:1 scaling (fixed aspect ratio). That will at least keep the aspect ratio the same and greatly improve quality on an LCD I have found.

 

[Todd33]

COD2 on the Xbox looks like a lower res scaled to 1280x720, the aliasing looks to strong to be a native 720p. Maybe these guys are cheating and doing internal rendering at 720x480 and then displaying them at 1280x720?

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: ajlb
Lol, no problem man. You are using auto I take it? Try going to sports mode on your cameras exposure settings, or manual and setting a high ISO with a high shutter speed. You are getting focus and motion blur because your cameras shutter speed is too low.

Yeah, just using auto. I'm a complete noob when it comes to these things.

Thanks for the advice... Maybe I'll play around some more tomorrow. 🙂

 

[compgeek89]

Originally posted by: Todd33
COD2 on the Xbox looks like a lower res scaled to 1280x720, the aliasing looks to strong to be a native 720p. Maybe these guys are cheating and doing internal rendering at 720x480 and then displaying them at 1280x720?

But if the 360 is so powerful why would they need to do that? :shocked:

 

[BenSkywalker]

But if the 360 is so powerful why would they need to do that?

Port. Ports always suck performance wise.

 

[compgeek89]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

But if the 360 is so powerful why would they need to do that?

Port. Ports always suck performance wise.

Where was PGR3 ported from?

And COD2 had 2 seperate dev teams, on for the 360 - to use multithreading and optimize for the unified shaders. the other for the PC. Console sites all over are claiming this.

New excuse please Mr. Fanboy.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Where was PGR3 ported from?

PGR3 isn't dealing with the odd scaling- but it certainly isn't fully optimized. You could argue that in essence it is being ported over from a Mac with a custom DX build since that is where most of the development took place.

And COD2 had 2 seperate dev teams, on for the 360 - to use multithreading and optimize for the unified shaders. the other for the PC. Console sites all over are claiming this.

Of course there were two seperate dev teams- ones running on a hybrid UMA/DX10/PPC platform and the other is running on a SMA/DX8-9/x86 platform. Obviously the codebase is going to have more then a few changes. Doesn't change the fact that it is a PORT.

New excuse please Mr. Fanboy.

If you check I've actually been bashing the XB360 pretty much across the board- but that doesn't make me anywhere near stupid enough to bash on it for what it clearly does right. A pathetic at best launch lineup? Yep. Half witted scheme of segmenting the market? You bet. Assured death of next gen media of choice for their parent company by exclusion? All over that. Fail to run a large portion of XB games? Free of charge. Moronic at best business choice of pushing for a global launch where the 360 is collecting dust on shelves while being outsold by the NDS by more then 50:1 in Japan and US consumers are screaming for more? MS baby. Top tier graphics lower then current PC games? Not a chance.

 

[compgeek89]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker Top tier graphics lower then current PC games? Not a chance.

Ah ah ah, you missed that one.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: compgeek89

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Top tier graphics lower then current PC games? Not a chance.

Ah ah ah, you missed that one.

The XB360 is a specialized architecture for specifically gaming and nothing else. That's why it generally has an edge over the more general x86 personal computer. The GPU is directly connected with the other chips via traces and for the PC the graphics card has lower bandwidth through it's slot AFAIK. Plus the XB360's GPU has some differences.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Todd33
COD2 on the Xbox looks like a lower res scaled to 1280x720, the aliasing looks to strong to be a native 720p. Maybe these guys are cheating and doing internal rendering at 720x480 and then displaying them at 1280x720?

Looks like 1280x720 with no AA to me, and I have the PC version hooked up to the same display to compare. Here is a shot of the PC version at 1280x720 with no AA:

http://www.sunflower.com/~kyleb/cod2pcnoaa.jpg

Also worth noting is that if I turn down the 360 to 480p then CoD2 has plenty of AA, but it is obviously rendered at a lower resolution as well.

 

[ajlb]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Where was PGR3 ported from?

PGR3 isn't dealing with the odd scaling- but it certainly isn't fully optimized. You could argue that in essence it is being ported over from a Mac with a custom DX build since that is where most of the development took place.

Actually, PGR3 is dealing with scaling. They render the game at 1024x600. It is the strangest scaling game for the 360 currently available.

The 360 is powerfull, but not a single game is using all 3 cores yet, and apparently it is a real nightmare to develop for. I hear rumor that the GPU alone has a lot of baggage.

 

[rbV5]

The XB360 is a specialized architecture for specifically gaming and nothing else.

Actually, its also a very capable media streamer with wireless capabilities and net connectivety.

 

[compgeek89]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Todd33
COD2 on the Xbox looks like a lower res scaled to 1280x720, the aliasing looks to strong to be a native 720p. Maybe these guys are cheating and doing internal rendering at 720x480 and then displaying them at 1280x720?

Looks like 1280x720 with no AA to me, and I have the PC version hooked up to the same display to compare. Here is a shot of the PC version at 1280x720 with no AA:

http://www.sunflower.com/~kyleb/cod2pcnoaa.jpg

Also worth noting is that if I turn down the 360 to 480p then CoD2 has plenty of AA, but it is obviously rendered at a lower resolution as well.

I pretty much said that, but 360 fanboys worship the 360 devkit.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: compgeek89
I pretty much said that, but 360 fanboys worship the 360 devkit.

Why do you have to sling insults just because someone doesn't unilaterally agree with you?

 

[Pete]

I've heard that the tiling feature of Xenos' onboard EDRAM (to allow for AA with higher resolutions, like 720p, that would otherwise exceed 10MB) wasn't fully specced until late in some games' development, so some early games may not have used it to enable AA at the X360's mandated 720p resolution (also perhaps mandated late in the game, so to speak). So we may have to wait for late first-gen or even second-gen titles to see AA applied consistently (and visibly).

Or res scaling may be a fact of life. We should know around E3, with the second wave of titles (meant to combat PS3's launch).

 

[Skriptures17]

now i know im probley goning to get shot for this but here goes anyway. When i play my games i perfer AA off, and its not that my comp cant handle it or anything cuzz it does and with flying colors too. But its just too me when i turn it on games kinda look well, a little bit not as clear. To explain; when i play my games with AA off things look clear and more 3d looking. With it on, things look kinda flat and stretched or scrunched. Or sometimes it has a more real world look and loses that video game prettiness (hmm is that even a word lol)

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Todd33
COD2 on the Xbox looks like a lower res scaled to 1280x720, the aliasing looks to strong to be a native 720p. Maybe these guys are cheating and doing internal rendering at 720x480 and then displaying them at 1280x720?

Looks like 1280x720 with no AA to me, and I have the PC version hooked up to the same display to compare. Here is a shot of the PC version at 1280x720 with no AA:

http://www.sunflower.com/~kyleb/cod2pcnoaa.jpg

Also worth noting is that if I turn down the 360 to 480p then CoD2 has plenty of AA, but it is obviously rendered at a lower resolution as well.

You are right, it does look like the 360 shot you linked above. I'm surprised that 2x aa does so much.

 

[kylebisme]

Yeah, modren GPU's x2aa is the bomb. I'll play games as low as 856x480 with x2aa and some good af before dropping the AA to go with a higher res. Obviously x4 and more and higher resolution is even better, but a little bit of good AA goes a long way.

 

[Wingznut]

The aliasing looks significantly better in 1080i, imho. I did some comparisons with my 51" HDTV, and I can definitely see a difference.

All the videophiles say that 720p has a better PQ than 1080i, but I don't see it... At least not with my eyes, on my setup. *shrugs*

 

[kylebisme]

What display are you using? I'm pretty sure that all the 360 game render at a maximum of 1280x720 regardless of if you select 720p or 1080i, in which case the only difference you'd be seeing how the scaler on your TV works compared to the one on the 360. That alone can make for a very dramatic difference if you have a 1080i display, as many of those downsample 720p to 1280x540 and then interlacing that instead of directly upsampling to 1920x1080 like the 360 does.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
What display are you using? I'm pretty sure that all the 360 game render at a maximum of 1280x720 regardless of if you select 720p or 1080i, in which case the only difference you'd be seeing how the scaler on your TV works compared to the one on the 360. That alone can make for a very dramatic difference if you have a 1080i display, as many of those downsample 720p to 1280x540 and then interlacing that instead of directly upsampling to 1920x1080 like the 360 does.

FWIW... I have a Sony KP-51WS510 that I got a couple of years ago.