Are there religious "fanatics" that are not harmful?

[AreaCode7O7]

Obviously the two most high profile "fanatic" groups are extremist Christians and extremist Muslims, and there are wonderful examples like Waco and 9-11 that you can dredge up where harm was done. However, are there groups that would similarly meet the criteria of extremist or fanatic that do no harm?

The Amish come to mind - they live their Christian beliefs to an unbelievable extreme, and you might consider them to be one of the least harmful groups of people in existence.

You could take Tibetan Buddhists in the same way - the Dalai Lama and his adherents are certainly dedicated in the extreme to their beliefs, but there is a group that you have to respect for the good they've done and continue to do.

It seems to me that the old axiom of "correlation does not imply causation" may apply. Violence and religious fanaticism can certainly be correlated, but I'm not sure that you can factually associate religious fanaticism as the cause of harm.

The point when emotions are high is when violence is most likely to erupt. The point when emotions are high is when people are most likely to join a religious, political or other ideological movement. Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Naturally there is no one answer for this, as each individual acts and reacts in completely unique ways. But the generalization is often made that religious fanaticism causes harm, when it seems reasonable to me that it could equally be harmless. Harmless just doesn't make headlines. Plus, rough generalizations shape the way people view the world, accurate or not. It's much easier to write "Muslim fanatics burn building in jihad" than to write "Loosely assembled group of people driven by a multitude of personal emotional and ideological reasons burn building to made a series of complex and convoluted points that we can't really discover, much less print in a headline."

 

[bamacre]

Religions don't start war, politicians do. 😉

Basically, behind the curtain of "religious violence," you'll find a political agenda. Because religion is a powerful tool, it's often used. Take it away, and those with a political agenda will just use another tool to gain support.

 

[jonks]

A rabid Pastafarian once tried to dump a bowl of their holy spaghetti on me. The sauce was really hot and could have seriously burned me. Don't mess with those noodleheads. They're freaking crazy.

 

[Craig234]

The Vietnam war killed millions for no good reason, and was not about religious fanaticism, though it was about fanaticism (nationalism, etc.) that people didn't realize was fanaticism.

 

[SlickSnake]

Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Religions don't start war, politicians do. 😉

Basically, behind the curtain of "religious violence," you'll find a political agenda. Because religion is a powerful tool, it's often used. Take it away, and those with a political agenda will just use another tool to gain support.

Definitely valid at times, for sure. Religion and politics, in some areas, are inextricably mixed as well.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

What about arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness? Are those mental diseases as well?

:roll:

Religions are institutions of traditional beliefs. No more, no less. They can be good, bad, or indifferent, depending on the people who adhere to them. You can't ascribe to religions human powers and attributes because not only are religions inanimate, they're intangible. They're just beliefs.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

I never quite understood how people are unable to recognize the sillyness of it all. If you tell someone you honestly believe in Apollo, Leprachauns or Nessy, you are certifiably insane. But if you believe when we die we go to live in the clouds forever, that's normal. There's about equal evidence for both ideas (i.e. none) and probably more for Nessy 🙂

That said, I don't propose banning religious thought or dissemination, people should be allowed to believe what they wish, and speak their minds on such matters. I don't think most religious people are fanatics, they either don't question what they were taught to believe, or don't care enough to bother.

And I believe there is a difference between belief in god and believing all the historical events presented as facts in most religions. Not much difference, but most people will say they believe in god even if it can't be proven, but there's no reason to believe the fables in holy books to be true.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

:laugh:

What a load of shit.

 

[Vic]

There is NO ONE that doesn't believe in something completely and utterly silly as part of their worldview. Given the opportunity, I doubt it would take me more than 5 minutes to find the silliness in each and every one of your worldviews. Even less time than that if you're gonna start talking about looking down on the silliness of others' views.

I'm not defending religion BTW, just suggesting you not throw rocks from your glass houses.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Religious fanatics harmful? Psychologically and emotionally harmful, yes. I made that clear enough.

And if anyone can use any religious pretext to cause violence, it does not really matter how fanatical they are. Someone is then just looking to justify and rationalize what they would most likely do violently anyway. Religion then just legitimizes their violent actions or intentions.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's the political "fanatics" that are harmful regardless of whether or not it's cloaked in religiousity.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Religious fanatics harmful? Psychologically and emotionally harmful, yes. I made that clear enough.

And if anyone can use any religious pretext to cause violence, it does not really matter how fanatical they are. Someone is then just looking to justify and rationalize what they would most likely do violently anyway. Religion then just legitimizes their violent actions or /intentions.

Thanks for answering the question. Your views seem quite common and I think there are elements of your post that are valid. There is something about how you articulate it in sweeping generalizations that make me want to encourage you to continue to personally experience the "sheeple" and learn about why they do what they do. You might be surprised on occasion. It won't change your view, I think, but it would help sharpen the valid points and remove the pieces that many posters recognized as fanatical in their own right.

 

[GrGr]

Don't overlook Zionism.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: Vic

What about arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness? Are those mental diseases as well?

:roll:

Religions are institutions of traditional beliefs. No more, no less. They can be good, bad, or indifferent, depending on the people who adhere to them. You can't ascribe to religions human powers and attributes because not only are religions inanimate, they're intangible. They're just beliefs.

Why don't you ask the Republican party and the Christian Coalition that question, Vic. I'm sure they could circle jerk each other a while and come up with something to please you, since I obviously won't give you a hand.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: Vic

What about arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness? Are those mental diseases as well?

:roll:

Religions are institutions of traditional beliefs. No more, no less. They can be good, bad, or indifferent, depending on the people who adhere to them. You can't ascribe to religions human powers and attributes because not only are religions inanimate, they're intangible. They're just beliefs.

Why don't you ask the Republican party and the Christian Coalition that question, Vic. I'm sure they could circle jerk each other a while and come up with something to please you, since I obviously won't give you a hand.

Could I ask you to remove the personal comment so the thread stays on topic, please?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: Vic

What about arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness? Are those mental diseases as well?

:roll:

Religions are institutions of traditional beliefs. No more, no less. They can be good, bad, or indifferent, depending on the people who adhere to them. You can't ascribe to religions human powers and attributes because not only are religions inanimate, they're intangible. They're just beliefs.

Why don't you ask the Republican party and the Christian Coalition that question, Vic. I'm sure they could circle jerk each other a while and come up with something to please you, since I obviously won't give you a hand.

What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't take religion to do the type of harm you're describing. It just takes a fanatical belief dividing humanity into groups of good and evil. The type of fantaticism, I might add, which you yourself are displaying right here. It's this hypocrisy of yours that is cause you to incur some flames here. One has to be very careful about being intolerant of intolerance.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Religion is a mental disease predominately spread by easily influenced, simple minded sheeple who don't know any better and are desperately looking for some peer group to fit into, however absurd it might be. Which is why it comes in so many flavors.

The most destructive long term aspect of religions is the indoctrination and brainwashing of the young sheeple involved with the religions through their parents adamant ministrations. The children really do not know any better, since they never really had a chance to form their own opinions about anything to start with. What you then end up with is generation after generation of religious zombies who literally can not think for themselves and view their entire existence based on a non verifiable assumption that they have been brainwashed into accepting.

And not to mention a lot of sheeple simply use it to easily justify anything they can not comprehend, such as outer space, creation or death. They can not accept when you die, that is it. They have to have some fantasy to look forwards too, and religion easily provides whatever that hope or fantasy might be, since other people who wanted it to be true thought it up a long time before you were even born.

So if you are religious, then by that very admission you must be fanatical about it, otherwise you would not claim it as your own. Unfortunately so many societal functions revolve around religion, such as marriage with a tax deduction and benefits, that society as a whole still goes along for the free joy ride on even though the exercise of religion by the majority of participants might be completely lacking, such as never going to church at all.

Then politics and politicians come along and easily manipulate and pull that string of brain dead religious sheeple where ever they want it to go by just invoking said religion, magical tomes and icons associated with it at every possible opportunity.

You sound like a bitter little 10th grader. I'm sorry you are so close-minded and arrogant, probably more so than the vast majority of the people you speak of. Ironic isn't it?

 

[StageLeft]

IMO, a Christian who is truly as close an approximation to Jesus as they may try to become would be a substantial positive, not a substantial positive as one for Muhammad would be (a brigand).

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Religious fanatics harmful? Psychologically and emotionally harmful, yes. I made that clear enough.

And if anyone can use any religious pretext to cause violence, it does not really matter how fanatical they are. Someone is then just looking to justify and rationalize what they would most likely do violently anyway. Religion then just legitimizes their violent actions or /intentions.

Thanks for answering the question. Your views seem quite common and I think there are elements of your post that are valid. There is something about how you articulate it in sweeping generalizations that make me want to encourage you to continue to personally experience the "sheeple" and learn about why they do what they do. You might be surprised on occasion. It won't change your view, I think, but it would help sharpen the valid points and remove the pieces that many posters recognized as fanatical in their own right.

I have personally experienced quite enough sheeple in religions, thanks for the advice on experiencing more of it, anyhow. I kind of doubt further harmful psychological exposure to them is going to change my views on religions. I have a family stocked full of Christian religitards, including preachers and prophets and the silent wives and children who out of fear of rejection do not question anything that they are brainwashed and indoctrinated with. Questioning this iron clad religious authority at all in my family results in ostracism. And if that is not arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness then I certainly do not know what it is, Vic.

But it is still my firm belief that any forcible religious indoctrination is a bad idea, and in fact a criminally bad one when done to impressionable minors against their will, regardless of the flavor you choose to consume. Obviously you feel strongly about it also, 707, since you started this topic, not me.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Religious fanatics harmful? Psychologically and emotionally harmful, yes. I made that clear enough.

And if anyone can use any religious pretext to cause violence, it does not really matter how fanatical they are. Someone is then just looking to justify and rationalize what they would most likely do violently anyway. Religion then just legitimizes their violent actions or /intentions.

Thanks for answering the question. Your views seem quite common and I think there are elements of your post that are valid. There is something about how you articulate it in sweeping generalizations that make me want to encourage you to continue to personally experience the "sheeple" and learn about why they do what they do. You might be surprised on occasion. It won't change your view, I think, but it would help sharpen the valid points and remove the pieces that many posters recognized as fanatical in their own right.

I have personally experienced quite enough sheeple in religions, thanks for the advice on experiencing more of it, anyhow. I kind of doubt further harmful psychological exposure to them is going to change my views on religions. I have a family stocked full of Christian religitards, including preachers and prophets and the silent wives and children who out of fear of rejection do not question anything that they are brainwashed and indoctrinated with. Questioning this iron clad religious authority at all in my family results in ostracism. And if that is not arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness then I certainly do not know what it is, Vic.

But it is still my firm belief that any forcible religious indoctrination is a bad idea, and in fact a criminally bad one when done to impressionable minors against their will, regardless of the flavor you choose to consume. Obviously you feel strongly about it also, 707, since you started this topic, not me.

You sound like a Stalin in training. Never heard someone ascribe the word "criminal" to one teaching their children their religious beliefs. You are more fanatic towards your beliefs than most christians I know.

 

[Vic]

Actually, Slick, I was referring to your own arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness in lumping every single person in all these diverse religious groups into single categories of "sheeple" and "religitard." Or that they are ALL fanatics and thus ALL psychologically and emotionally harmful.

Like I said earlier, everyone believes in something utterly silly in their own worldview, and you've just told us yours.

So give it a rest, eh? Yes, there are fanatics out there, but you don't have to belong to a religion in order to be onen (PSA: you're acting like one). And hell, some people just go to church for the business contacts (I work in a referral based business and personally know a number of these BTW). Are they evil harmful sheeple religitard fanatics?

 

[Craig234]

A problem with the word fanatic is that it has little meaning IMO for a topic like this - one man's fanatic is another's non-fanatic hero.

I've been called - by someone pretty silly, yes - fanatical about democracy here for simply claiming what I thought is the core American value that it's the least bad way for our society's formal power to be distributed, compared to alternatives where power is concentrated in fewer hands.

Now consider how radical it was for our founding fathers to want to overthrow the entire government from ruling the colonies that had been in place for several centuries, to the point of risking the large loss of life in going to war for it, to get 'democracy'. Their fellow citizens could certainly have called them 'fanatics'; we call them great men who made the world's best, most progressive system of government.

Is it fanatical for young people in the prosperous United States to risk their lives to go kill people they don't know in Iraq or Vietnam, for vague notions of 'serving the nation'? The difficulty in recognizing them as fanatical demonstrates the level of cultural bias in the term.

Is the guy who does not do anything himself much, but ignorantly votes for a warmongering candidate and pays their taxes to fun unjust wars without question, a fanatic - or if not, a bigger problem than a fanatic?

Who's killed more, the 'normal' citizen who is an enabler to the abuse of power to kill others, or the 'fanatic'? Our Iraq sanctions killed hundreds of thousands, mostly women and children from diseases and similar causes, as Americans paid almost no attention, while 9/11 killed nearly 3,000 people - who was the fanatic? Who caused more harm?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Good information on your perspective of religion in society. Do you have an opinion specifically on these questions?

Do you think there are religious "fanatics" that are not harmful? Does religious extremism cause violence or are violence and religious extremism joint effects of a common cause?

Religious fanatics harmful? Psychologically and emotionally harmful, yes. I made that clear enough.

And if anyone can use any religious pretext to cause violence, it does not really matter how fanatical they are. Someone is then just looking to justify and rationalize what they would most likely do violently anyway. Religion then just legitimizes their violent actions or /intentions.

Thanks for answering the question. Your views seem quite common and I think there are elements of your post that are valid. There is something about how you articulate it in sweeping generalizations that make me want to encourage you to continue to personally experience the "sheeple" and learn about why they do what they do. You might be surprised on occasion. It won't change your view, I think, but it would help sharpen the valid points and remove the pieces that many posters recognized as fanatical in their own right.

I have personally experienced quite enough sheeple in religions, thanks for the advice on experiencing more of it, anyhow. I kind of doubt further harmful psychological exposure to them is going to change my views on religions. I have a family stocked full of Christian religitards, including preachers and prophets and the silent wives and children who out of fear of rejection do not question anything that they are brainwashed and indoctrinated with. Questioning this iron clad religious authority at all in my family results in ostracism. And if that is not arrogance, conceit, and closed-mindedness then I certainly do not know what it is, Vic.

But it is still my firm belief that any forcible religious indoctrination is a bad idea, and in fact a criminally bad one when done to impressionable minors against their will, regardless of the flavor you choose to consume. Obviously you feel strongly about it also, 707, since you started this topic, not me.

It seems like your experience has been only one view of an incredibly varied religious landscape. That reinforces my feeling that your perspective could be broadened, if not changed, by more exposure, but your life is your own and if your past exposure was what you say, it's understandable that you would be wary of more.

I do have my own perspectives but I'm more interested in hearing others right now. I appreciate your participation in the thread.