Are there any statistics that show higher education doesn?t necessarily mean higher income?

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: her209
Bill Gates
Michael Dell

This post is a fine example of someone that didn't have an higher education enough to read the question and/or understand that showing how someone without higher education and a higher income does not prove that with a higher education you wouldn't get a higher income.

Stupid run-on sentence of the year.

 

[BrownTown]

Well as an electrical engineer I should have expected 52,000 in 2005, so now in 2008 a $60,000 salary isn't THAT far out of range, possibly in the first standard deviation

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well as an electrical engineer I should have expected 52,000 in 2005, so now in 2008 a $60,000 salary isn't THAT far out of range, possibly in the first standard deviation

It varies from location to location. The average salary for an entry-level EE down here is ~$45,000 with $55,000 being very high.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well as an electrical engineer I should have expected 52,000 in 2005, so now in 2008 a $60,000 salary isn't THAT far out of range, possibly in the first standard deviation

Ahhh, the ignorance of youth.

Sometimes I truly wish I was that ignorant again. Telling everybody else that has been through it before "But! Look at the starting salary! "

50 thou a year will buy a lotta beer. Things are going great, but they're only getting better. I'm doing alright, getting good grades, the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.

Yeah, I gotta wear shades.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: her209
Bill Gates
Michael Dell

This post is a fine example of someone that didn't have an higher education enough to read the question and/or understand that showing how someone without higher education and a higher income does not prove that with a higher education you wouldn't get a higher income.

Stupid run-on sentence of the year.

Sorry, didn't know that was your lover.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: BrownTown
As for spacejamz's list, that is interesting to some degree, but on the flipside a 22 year old engineering graduate is making as much their first year out of college as the average (which would be like a 30 year old maybe?) person in all those professions except the top one, so really that proves the point that education is a HUGE influence since even the best non-degree jobs get beaten by a regular dude with a degree.

Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Engineering does not limit upward mobility, the mindset does. Lots of engineers have the "cruise control" mindset where they feel like middle upper class is good enough. Not enough to buy a boat for the weekend cruises, but enough to live comfortably and raise a family.

There are plenty of ambitious engineers that go on and acquire an MBA and move into the business side of things. Combined with their technical background, they are new hot shit in technology companies. Many executives comes from technical backgrounds in these companies, yet they have the soft skills of a successful salesman.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well as an electrical engineer I should have expected 52,000 in 2005, so now in 2008 a $60,000 salary isn't THAT far out of range, possibly in the first standard deviation

Wrong.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Electrical engineering - $54,599

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: her209
Bill Gates
Michael Dell

This post is a fine example of someone that didn't have an higher education enough to read the question and/or understand that showing how someone without higher education and a higher income does not prove that with a higher education you wouldn't get a higher income.

Stupid run-on sentence of the year.

Sorry, didn't know that was your lover.

12 year old come back of the year.

Just to stop you ahead of time - no he's not my lover. Run back to class.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: BrownTown
As for spacejamz's list, that is interesting to some degree, but on the flipside a 22 year old engineering graduate is making as much their first year out of college as the average (which would be like a 30 year old maybe?) person in all those professions except the top one, so really that proves the point that education is a HUGE influence since even the best non-degree jobs get beaten by a regular dude with a degree.

Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

I am not sure where you live, but 60k is very normal for an engineering graduate these days in a large metro area.

I live in Seattle, the backyard of UW. Almost every EE, CE, CS, Aeronautics, ME major I know makes around that figure. 60k is not that much these days man, especially when a 2000 sq feet cookie cutter house cost 600k around here.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: BrownTown
As for spacejamz's list, that is interesting to some degree, but on the flipside a 22 year old engineering graduate is making as much their first year out of college as the average (which would be like a 30 year old maybe?) person in all those professions except the top one, so really that proves the point that education is a HUGE influence since even the best non-degree jobs get beaten by a regular dude with a degree.

Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

I am not sure where you live, but 60k is very normal for an engineering graduate these days in a large metro area.

I live in Seattle, the backyard of UW. Almost every EE, CE, CS, Aeronautics, ME major I know makes around that figure. 60k is not that much these days man, especially when a 2000 sq feet cookie cutter house cost 600k around here.

Because it's all about area. The same 2000 sqft house around here cost around $160,000.

Edit: I have no clue what EE jobs go for in Nashville. A quick look at career builder showed one from 60k - 87k, but that's with "A minimum of 5 years electrical engineering experience especially in a manufacturing setting."

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: beer
So rather than agree with the statistics that are widely available and accepted and statistically sound, you're going to find some corner case that tries to agree with you even though every legitimate study says otherwise?

He said "necessarily". This would be extremely easy to prove since you'd only need one example proving otherwise.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
Because it's all about area. The same 2000 sqft house around here cost around $160,000.

Edit: I have no clue what EE jobs go for in Nashville. A quick look at career builder showed one from 60k - 87k, but that's with "A minimum of 5 years electrical engineering experience especially in a manufacturing setting."

wait, did you make that post because you know I am in Nashville or just random? That kinda creeping me out right now

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: newb111
There are obviously examples of the exception, but it is still a rule.

both the 'exceptions' listed are also highly educated, they just didn't bother with the credentials.

 

[Aluvus]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Most of the people I graduated with last May (all of whom are engineers of various stripes) got jobs around the $50-60k range, in locations ranging from from Dallas, TX, to a small town in Illinois.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Depends heavily on the industry. It sounds like you work in a company that treats its engineers like crap. That is unfortunate.

If the guy on the line is "just a guy that works on the line", in many industries he will be in real danger of being replaced by a machine. In other industries, manufacturing may be shifted somewhere else to lower costs. If he is something closer to a manager, he may be in better shape.

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Those numbers look believable.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
20 great jobs that don't require a degree

# Air traffic controller

Annual income: $102,030


# Commercial pilot

Annual income: $53,870

good luck getting either of these jobs without getting a degree or comparable military experience.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: BrownTown
As for spacejamz's list, that is interesting to some degree, but on the flipside a 22 year old engineering graduate is making as much their first year out of college as the average (which would be like a 30 year old maybe?) person in all those professions except the top one, so really that proves the point that education is a HUGE influence since even the best non-degree jobs get beaten by a regular dude with a degree.

Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

most of my friend who have gotten engineering jobs started between 50 and 60k.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

"Are there any statistics that show higher education doesn?t necessarily mean higher income? "

At age 31, I have realized some things. Primarily that all that matters is your drive to succeed. Just remember, that landscaper who has 4 trucks total is probably profiting 6 figures.

I don't want to rant though. An education is priceless so long as your learn to learn and don't spend time concentrating on getting As. I had a 2.8 GPA and I'm doing jsut fine. The sad thing is I've learned value investing on my own (the whole learn to learn thing) and if I am not able to retire prior to age 50 I'd be shocked. While others are buying cool X5s, I'm takign that $50K and investing it so that it is $100K in 5 years time. Thin k about it. If you pay that ting off over 5 years, you have a $20K car and no money. You live with a cheap car, say $15K and invest $35K ... 5 yeras later you have a $5K car and $70K in cash.

Mor on cars. You think people refiancned and got home equity loans to fix up their homes? I've seen to many hummers in the drive ways of people that can't afford them. X5s are nice, but realize that most people are deeply in debt due to them.

And no matter how much you love your field, it gets boring after time. Just learn that money is all that really matters.

 

[imported_yovonbishop]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
There are actually some pretty good examples where getting higher degrees DOES lead to less income, but they are kind of misleading. One good example is people who get say a masters in say english or history are less likely to make as much money as people who get only a bachelors, but this is because the people with masters are more often off being teachers whereas the bachelors people might be going off and being lawyers. So its pretty misleading, but there are definitely many cases. As a whole I think that the majority of people who get a masters in a liberal art make less than bachelors, but probably if you get a PH.D you make it back up since you will be a professor at college which is pretty good income.

EDIT: in engineering your gonna be making more money for more degrees, but it really isn't that much more, so the extra time spent getting a degree verse your increased income is likely borderline not worth it, being even a low level manager is alot bigger jump than an extra degree for example.

I was going to use the teacher example, but you beat me to it. My fiance is going for a technical writing job (he's got his Bachelor's degree), which is upper forties to about fifty grand a year. A job teaching high school English that requires a Master's degree would get him maybe low to mid thirties (around here anyway).

But there are very few exceptions like this.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Most of the people I graduated with last May (all of whom are engineers of various stripes) got jobs around the $50-60k range, in locations ranging from from Dallas, TX, to a small town in Illinois.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Depends heavily on the industry. It sounds like you work in a company that treats its engineers like crap. That is unfortunate.

If the guy on the line is "just a guy that works on the line", in many industries he will be in real danger of being replaced by a machine. In other industries, manufacturing may be shifted somewhere else to lower costs. If he is something closer to a manager, he may be in better shape.

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Those numbers look believable.

I say again!

Engineers are the grunts. You are fresh out. You're nice little world of how things should be just isn't reality. It's gonna hit you like a brick, you'll be all crosseyed of how you believed things should be. All those guys studying business and engineering management that you made fun of while in school? Yeah, they're gonna be making twice as much as you are by their late 20s. Good luck.

Ignorance is bliss so they say. You guys are in for a real awakening when you get out of school.

I know, I know...it's cool to think about and look at starting salaries and it is enticing for engineers. It's fun to think about how bright that future may be when 70K seems like a lot of money. But face it, you are the worker bees and you always will be. You are no different in importance than the guy that grades my land. Welcome to the machine.

Engineers do the work, others tell them what to work on. All those business and communication classes you laughed at? It's gonna hit you like a brick.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Most of the people I graduated with last May (all of whom are engineers of various stripes) got jobs around the $50-60k range, in locations ranging from from Dallas, TX, to a small town in Illinois.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Depends heavily on the industry. It sounds like you work in a company that treats its engineers like crap. That is unfortunate.

If the guy on the line is "just a guy that works on the line", in many industries he will be in real danger of being replaced by a machine. In other industries, manufacturing may be shifted somewhere else to lower costs. If he is something closer to a manager, he may be in better shape.

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Those numbers look believable.

I say again!

Engineers are the grunts. You are fresh out. You're nice little world of how things should be just isn't reality. It's gonna hit you like a brick, you'll be all crosseyed of how you believed things should be. All those guys studying business and engineering management that you made fun of while in school? Yeah, they're gonna be making twice as much as you are by their late 20s. Good luck.

Ignorance is bliss so they say. You guys are in for a real awakening when you get out of school.

I know, I know...it's cool to think about and look at starting salaries and it is enticing for engineers. It's fun to think about how bright that future may be when 70K seems like a lot of money. But face it, you are the worker bees and you always will be. You are no different in importance than the guy that grades my land. Welcome to the machine.

Engineers do the work, others tell them what to work on. All those business and communication classes you laughed at? It's gonna hit you like a brick.

Yeah, it's too bad Congress passed that law awhile back that says your first job is the career you must stay in for the rest of your life. Otherwise he could always go back to school and pick up some other field.

Oh wait, Congress never did pass that law. Hmmm, maybe he's not so screwed after all....

 

[Eeezee]

There are plenty of degrees that don't lead to much higher income. If you major in English and become a janitor, you aren't making more in the longrun than if you had just become a janitor and not spent 4 years at school

Keep in mind the opportunity cost of college. That's 4-5 years, and if you don't have a scholarship then you're actually going into debt considerably. If you chose your degree wisely, you will easily make much more with a college degree.

Pale Rider, the average starting salary for engineers in any top 50 school is easily $60k. It varies by school, but every study I've read has agreed on 50k-75k / year for the first year. My school was top 35ish for engineering and I know a guy that made $75k/year starting.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I say again!

Engineers are the grunts. You are fresh out. You're nice little world of how things should be just isn't reality. It's gonna hit you like a brick, you'll be all crosseyed of how you believed things should be. All those guys studying business and engineering management that you made fun of while in school? Yeah, they're gonna be making twice as much as you are by their late 20s. Good luck.

Ignorance is bliss so they say. You guys are in for a real awakening when you get out of school.

I know, I know...it's cool to think about and look at starting salaries and it is enticing for engineers. It's fun to think about how bright that future may be when 70K seems like a lot of money. But face it, you are the worker bees and you always will be. You are no different in importance than the guy that grades my land. Welcome to the machine.

Engineers do the work, others tell them what to work on. All those business and communication classes you laughed at? It's gonna hit you like a brick.

Wth? Why are you bashing engineers all the time? They made fun of you in school or something? while it's true in most companies it's the non-engineering, business people who are in command (as it should be in a business), in the grand scheme of things engineering is still a fairly reputable position. The money is not bad either compared to most jobs.

And nice job generalizing engineers as delusional egotistic jerks who are only in for the money.

I do engineering because I enjoy it and the money's good. That's not to say I'm completely satisfied, and I can always move into something else.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Most of the people I graduated with last May (all of whom are engineers of various stripes) got jobs around the $50-60k range, in locations ranging from from Dallas, TX, to a small town in Illinois.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Depends heavily on the industry. It sounds like you work in a company that treats its engineers like crap. That is unfortunate.

If the guy on the line is "just a guy that works on the line", in many industries he will be in real danger of being replaced by a machine. In other industries, manufacturing may be shifted somewhere else to lower costs. If he is something closer to a manager, he may be in better shape.

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Those numbers look believable.

I say again!

Engineers are the grunts. You are fresh out. You're nice little world of how things should be just isn't reality. It's gonna hit you like a brick, you'll be all crosseyed of how you believed things should be. All those guys studying business and engineering management that you made fun of while in school? Yeah, they're gonna be making twice as much as you are by their late 20s. Good luck.

Ignorance is bliss so they say. You guys are in for a real awakening when you get out of school.

I know, I know...it's cool to think about and look at starting salaries and it is enticing for engineers. It's fun to think about how bright that future may be when 70K seems like a lot of money. But face it, you are the worker bees and you always will be. You are no different in importance than the guy that grades my land. Welcome to the machine.

Engineers do the work, others tell them what to work on. All those business and communication classes you laughed at? It's gonna hit you like a brick.

Please. People who understand production, development, and product creation at the micro level are highly valued at the top of the chain, IF they have the other required skills (personable, intelligent, organized, etc). If you really believe what you wrote, then I have to think you've worked for some really crappy companies. If you're a jaded engineer that feels this way, maybe you didn't / don't challenge yourself or push hard enough to advance your career.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Aluvus

Originally posted by: Pale Rider
Pipe dream.

Most engineers don't jump into 60k year jobs right out of school. Whoever told you that isn't living in the real world.

Most of the people I graduated with last May (all of whom are engineers of various stripes) got jobs around the $50-60k range, in locations ranging from from Dallas, TX, to a small town in Illinois.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Actually they do, but they hit a ceiling and are unable to move up because they are just engineers. They don't know how to do anything else. You gotta keep the supply of grunts up, so you give the grunts a "OMG! 60K!!! I'm RICH!" incentive.

Meanwhile the guy working on the line is making more and telling the grunt what is wrong with his stuff.

Depends heavily on the industry. It sounds like you work in a company that treats its engineers like crap. That is unfortunate.

If the guy on the line is "just a guy that works on the line", in many industries he will be in real danger of being replaced by a machine. In other industries, manufacturing may be shifted somewhere else to lower costs. If he is something closer to a manager, he may be in better shape.

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/0...ees_winter07/index.htm

Those numbers look believable.

I say again!

Engineers are the grunts. You are fresh out. You're nice little world of how things should be just isn't reality. It's gonna hit you like a brick, you'll be all crosseyed of how you believed things should be. All those guys studying business and engineering management that you made fun of while in school? Yeah, they're gonna be making twice as much as you are by their late 20s. Good luck.

Ignorance is bliss so they say. You guys are in for a real awakening when you get out of school.

I know, I know...it's cool to think about and look at starting salaries and it is enticing for engineers. It's fun to think about how bright that future may be when 70K seems like a lot of money. But face it, you are the worker bees and you always will be. You are no different in importance than the guy that grades my land. Welcome to the machine.

Engineers do the work, others tell them what to work on. All those business and communication classes you laughed at? It's gonna hit you like a brick.

Yeah, it's too bad Congress passed that law awhile back that says your first job is the career you must stay in for the rest of your life. Otherwise he could always go back to school and pick up some other field.

Oh wait, Congress never did pass that law. Hmmm, maybe he's not so screwed after all....

Spidey doesn't know what he's talking about anyway - business is for people who don't want to enjoy their jobs. If all you want to do is make money, then something like Finanace or Economics is a fine degree. However, Spidey doesn't distinguise those degrees from business administration - business admin majors make less than engineers. You can google the statistics.

Here's one website. It's not the most scientific way of culling numbers (12k people taking a survey), but it's accurate enough for our little discussion.
http://www.studentsreview.com/salary_by_major.php3

10 year averages
Finanace - $237k
Economics - $194k

Yeah, that's a lot of money. But most business majors aren't in Finance or Economics. Those fields are practically on par with science and engineering. Most business majors are in:
Business Management and Administratino - $112k
Communications - $85k

Compare this to science and engineering
Astronomy - 286k
Biology - $146k
Chemical Engineering - $113k
Chemistry - $150k
Civil Engineering - $113k
Mechanical Engineering - $110k
Physics - $118k

Computer engineering is admittedly low at $87k. But come on, who can endorse Communications? I've read the syllabi, some of those courses are "How to be a Secretary." One syllabus in a 400-level (upper division) course stated "Your final grade will be based on how well you schedule a meeting and write several different types of memos."

It is really all a matter of perspective. If you REALLY want to make money, get into Astronomy Or apparently Zoology, damn, $315k?!

 

[spidey07]

LOL at the google quoting.

Good luck guys. That's all I can say. You'll figure it out soon enough.