Are the IRA Terrorists or Patriots

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Cesar,
That which is going on in Ireland is the result of having a history of violence inculcated since birth into the minds of some of the Catholics and a differn't version in the minds of some of the Protestants. The Protestant views himself as a Brit whereas the Catholic views himself as an Irishman. The feeling about the Catholic has not changed since the days of Henry Tudor... Once the defender of the faith... then a hater of the Catholic... and down the lines it came... Billy of Orange beat James II at Boyne and ever since there have been Orangemen and hatred.... When you seek to surpress a people simply because of their religion you wonder how the perpetrator can be called civilized. The English did much to the Scot in the north of their Island... because they were Scot and not wanting to bow to the crown.... The real Scot that is... The ones with Celtic blood flowing in their veins. So today we have our bestest buddies the English still trying to have peace in a land they ravaged for centuries... Perhaps, it will happen... peace... but, not the other.

Moonster,
Bananas of mashed destruction apon a hapless leopard... how cruel... you'd lie in wait for the little kitty to wonder by and bam... you soil his pretty spots... you terrorist... stand on the ground like a man and fight the leopard even steven... you with a stick and he with his claws.... and teeth... mustnt forget the teeth... does he strike terror in you under those conditions? hmmmmm once the hapless kitty now the terrorist.... boy how things change... all because of where you stand...
 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
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0
HJD1, remember - an ellipsis doth not a sentence make. ;)

Anyway, I'm not sure if my perspective is well based or particularly messed up, but to come clean, my family is Catholic Irish/Scots and I was born in England. So in answer to your question, the IRA are clearly both. I think thats without doubt. As are the UDF, the INLA, the UVA etc etc etc. To this list we may well add the Force Research Unit and others like it, but more time is needed to truly judge this list.

Also, undoubtedly, the British government acted for a long time in an unforgivable manner, if perhaps less one less evil than often made out. Remember that both sides have and have had their fair share of heroes, villains, as well as ordinary folk trapped where no one belonged to be.

Those who advocate the British resuming the battle against the IRA, or the British leaving Northern Ireland seem to me to be lacking in historical perspective, as well as a serious understanding of human nature, as well as a sense of empathy.

"The Brittish always considered the Irish to be sub human... they tend to still think that way..."

I have to take exception to that ( and not just your spelling in general ;) ) There have certainly been times when that statement would not have been a hideous stretch of reality, but these were much smaller times, when each persons world was much more confined. If you go back a hundred years or so then you will basically find that belief everywhere, amongst all people, even within nations.

Ant to say that that kind of belief continies is just ludicrous. Try visiting the UK or Ireland. My family have never had any problems in Britain (save once, when my Irish grandmother was called a "dirty Irish b*****" on a bus. This was a couple of days after the Birmingham Pub Bombings, when the IRA bombed a series of bars indiscriminately in the city in which she lived, killing a bunch of poor unfortunates who had only gone for a drink. In defense of the English, the english bus driver and a few other english passengers stood up for her. She certainly wouldn't agree with your opinion. But she would be less polite about it that me.)

Apart from that, as trite as it is, one mans terrorist is truly anothers freedom fighter. And the divide between a just and an unjust war is slighter than an angel's wing. Too slight for us poor humans to keep from blundering across, it seems.


By the way, why the Crimean War reference?
 

Zrom999

Banned
Apr 13, 2003
698
0
0
Freedom fighters don't go around training murderers to become more effective murderers. The IRA has trained trouble makers around the world, Africa, MidEast, Asia and South America. Some of those groups used the terror tactics against British presence in those areas, so you can argue it was a way to indirectly attack the British but some areas had no British involvement at all and these groups were trained in exchange for money, weapons or bases of operation. The IRA are worse than Al-Qaeda in everyway. If you think the IRA are freedom fighters you might as well be supporting FARC, Hamas, and Bin Laden or you can be a hypocrit. All Terrorist don't wear turbans and come from warm climate. Support the IRA, justify their methods and throw a party on September 11th to celebrate a great victory for freedom figthers everywhere.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
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If a Foriegn Country would occupy the USA or even my State I would do my best to terrorize them and their people. If it were Canada, Canadians would die. If it were Mexico, Mexicans would die and if it were our own Countrymen who went against our Constitution then those who thought like them would die.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,674
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If a Foriegn Country would occupy the USA or even my State I would do my best to terrorize them and their people. If it were Canada, Canadians would die. If it were Mexico, Mexicans would die and if it were our own Countrymen who went against our Constitution then those who thought like them would die.
-----------------------------------------------------
As a turtle, I feel the same way. I'd simply be outraged.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Zrom999
Freedom fighters don't go around training murderers to become more effective murderers. The IRA has trained trouble makers around the world, Africa, MidEast, Asia and South America. Some of those groups used the terror tactics against British presence in those areas, so you can argue it was a way to indirectly attack the British but some areas had no British involvement at all and these groups were trained in exchange for money, weapons or bases of operation. The IRA are worse than Al-Qaeda in everyway. If you think the IRA are freedom fighters you might as well be supporting FARC, Hamas, and Bin Laden or you can be a hypocrit. All Terrorist don't wear turbans and come from warm climate. Support the IRA, justify their methods and throw a party on September 11th to celebrate a great victory for freedom figthers everywhere.
I guess there is no use in asking you to donate to the relief society for the needs of the Irish people and other uses... its ok.. I understand.
But, as an aside, let me ask you something... does the fact that the British worked to eliminate the Irish Catholic by any number of means, for instance. A catholic was not allowed to attend higher education, when the famine came the Irish were allowed to starve or leave while England had ample food stuffs they voted to not send to feed the Irish (their country folks as part of their collective), they could not be hired to work, the land was given to folks as incentive to move to Ireland to populate it with "British", the land the Irish did own was not fertile enough to feed the owners there on and when the owner died he had to split it amongst the entire family so that no one had enough to farm, and on and on... then after the turn of the century and up to '21 the black and tans would act like Nazi SS, then the rebellion and more death... Irish fighting with pitch forks against seasoned (WWI Vets) and well armed folks shot down like so many geese... and on and on.... When is it OK to fight back... with the only weapon available...?
I don't advocate violent action.... just asking how much before you get upset enough to vent and vent and vent for centuries of nasty stuff..

 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
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Originally posted by: Ornery
You fall in the terrorist category when you purposely kill innocent civilians.
Would you then consider an economic blockade enforced solely by military might that cause civillians casualties due to malnutrition or lack of health supplies an act of terrorism?
ie Us economic blockade on Cuba, US economic blockade/sanction against Iran, China killing Tibetans, Israel killing their target without trial etc, etc

IMO, you definition/standard for terrorist is generraly good enough in a ideal/imaginary world, yet it's full of flaws when applied to real world...

 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
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Originally posted by: Zrom999
Freedom fighters don't go around training murderers to become more effective murderers. The IRA has trained trouble makers around the world, Africa, MidEast, Asia and South America. Some of those groups used the terror tactics against British presence in those areas, so you can argue it was a way to indirectly attack the British but some areas had no British involvement at all and these groups were trained in exchange for money, weapons or bases of operation. The IRA are worse than Al-Qaeda in everyway. If you think the IRA are freedom fighters you might as well be supporting FARC, Hamas, and Bin Laden or you can be a hypocrit. All Terrorist don't wear turbans and come from warm climate. Support the IRA, justify their methods and throw a party on September 11th to celebrate a great victory for freedom figthers everywhere.

what about a legal sanctioned British govt training of rebels in Burma or Iran back then? I don't think any govt in the world could have moral high ground when using your PoV/standard... in the end, it actually matter not, the military might and power will dictate history and who's right or wrong, not some ethical/moral standard base on humanity or God's will or any other deity's will...
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,020
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81
Originally posted by: cpumaster
Originally posted by: Ornery
You fall in the terrorist category when you purposely kill innocent civilians.
Would you then consider an economic blockade enforced solely by military might that cause civillians casualties due to malnutrition or lack of health supplies an act of terrorism?
ie Us economic blockade on Cuba, US economic blockade/sanction against Iran, China killing Tibetans, Israel killing their target without trial etc, etc

IMO, you definition/standard for terrorist is generraly good enough in a ideal/imaginary world, yet it's full of flaws when applied to real world...


I guess by leaving a despot in power, we're causing civilian deaths, too.

Purposely sniping or blowing up innocent civilians is terroristic, no matter who does it.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Christoph
They're both. Being a patriot doesn't mean you're not a terrorist.
The IRA liberated the Republic of Ireland in 1916 and they were Patriots although they used terrorist tactics (notice they used Britain's involvement in WWI to declare Independance).

Now the legimate government of Ireland "officially" decries the IRA's tactics and distances themselves from them - but in their hearts support "action" against the British army (although frankly in the South they'd prefer the North just "go away" instead of unite with the rest of Ireland).
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
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Originally posted by: Cesar
The IRA are patriots because they are fighting for their rights just like the palestinians.
I don't care what people say about them because they know nothing about what is going on.
Of course you have the monopoly on what's right - and that everyone else around here hasn't got a clue


Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
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Originally posted by: HJD1
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: Christoph
They're both. Being a patriot doesn't mean you're not a terrorist.
A terrorist is defined by their actions - not their motives. You can have sympathy with their arguement but that doesn't excuse their actions.

The IRA/PIRA/Real IRA as well as the UDF/UVF/etc are ALL terrorists.

Andy
Well.... My Brittish Scot.... Yes... indeed the tactic is the definer... to use terror is the weapon of the terrorist... the M1 tank does not cause terror in the heart of the T79..? or is the MOAB not terror inducing? Me wonders about that... do you?
Terror is a tactic - but in the modern definition of what I (and I guess many) would call "a terrorist" I would say:

One who employs methods of indiscriminate of civilian targetted killing. i.e. setting a bomb in a pub or shop. In this case I wouldn't see your comparison as valid nor your veiled implication that terrorism can sometimes be seen as justified.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
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Originally posted by: HJD1
Andy

No one "gave in". What has been demonstrated is that for a lasting and real peace their have to be concessions on both sides.

I hope the UK grows a spine and hunts them down to last person and kills them in the most painful way possible.
And then we'll have another few decades of violence.... to quote moonbeam (which I don't do very often!):

an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye...

Andy
How about all the Britts go home with their eyes and let the Irish be Irish if they choose and see how that works for awhile... They are better off now then when in 1845 the Brittish chose to let half the population die rather than ship food to them... they were under the Brittish flag at that time.... remember...[/quote]

Never going to happen with such an embedded population in any part of the world - including Irealnd. Was forcably annexing Ireland wrong and a mistake? Yes. Will forcibly trying (emphasis on try) to remove "non-pure" Irish/Protestants) from the North and allowing full Irish rule solve all the violence and problems of the North - me thinks not. Too much water under the bridge. Not a savory answer to some but IMHO the only real peaceful way forward.

Cheers,

Andy
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: Cesar
The IRA are patriots because they are fighting for their rights just like the palestinians.
I don't care what people say about them because they know nothing about what is going on.
Of course you have the monopoly on what's right - and that everyone else around here hasn't got a clue


Andy
Andy,
If you step on my to I feel it... if you've had your toe stepped on you know how it feels..
If you see toes stepped on you can say all toes being stepped on must hurt because you can see there is no differnce among toes being stepped on. A toe is a toe is a toe.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: HJD1
Andy

No one "gave in". What has been demonstrated is that for a lasting and real peace their have to be concessions on both sides.

I hope the UK grows a spine and hunts them down to last person and kills them in the most painful way possible.
And then we'll have another few decades of violence.... to quote moonbeam (which I don't do very often!):

an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye...

Andy
How about all the Britts go home with their eyes and let the Irish be Irish if they choose and see how that works for awhile... They are better off now then when in 1845 the Brittish chose to let half the population die rather than ship food to them... they were under the Brittish flag at that time.... remember...
Never going to happen with such an embedded population in any part of the world - including Irealnd. Was forcably annexing Ireland wrong and a mistake? Yes. Will forcibly trying (emphasis on try) to remove "non-pure" Irish/Protestants) from the North and allowing full Irish rule solve all the violence and problems of the North - me thinks not. Too much water under the bridge. Not a savory answer to some but IMHO the only real peaceful way forward.

Cheers,

Andy[/quote]

I don't want the Irish to go anywhere... I do want the British to go home and leave MY island to figure out what it wants. There is a protestant majority in the North. If they reject reunification with the Republic fine. If they choose to unite fine. But, let them choose without the troops of England there. Sure Ian and co. will never settle for a papist state as they call it and the other factions battling against the catholic minority would go nuts if they were left to fend for them selves but in time equilibrium will set in when everyone sees the fruitlessness of violence. This will occur when the '48 thinking is back to a one Ireland one people but of differing views.... sorta like in the US... it seems.
BTW.
If I've not said it before; I was born in NYC, the result of my mother being PG when she left Ireland but, not knowing it... thank God for that... otherwise I might never had the chance to spend 6 years '63-'69 in the service. Gee I could have ended up a Poet in Armagh. Or a........ statistic along the Falls Road somewhere.
As an aside, I have but one friend (aside from on this forum)... a good friend though... He's from County Down and a protestant... I was raised Catholic... We are Starbucks regulars;)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Christoph
They're both. Being a patriot doesn't mean you're not a terrorist.
The IRA liberated the Republic of Ireland in 1916 and they were Patriots although they used terrorist tactics (notice they used Britain's involvement in WWI to declare Independance).

Now the legimate government of Ireland "officially" decries the IRA's tactics and distances themselves from them - but in their hearts support "action" against the British army (although frankly in the South they'd prefer the North just "go away" instead of unite with the rest of Ireland).
Bon Jour, Long time no see.

The Republic tries hard to seem disinterested but in Clonakilty (West Cork) folks use to talk about the old days, Collins and De Velera and all the infighting etc. There they would never dream of allowing Orange day parades to march through their town but, neither would they march through a protestant area just to "flaunt". Ireland is 32 counties not 26.
 

Zrom999

Banned
Apr 13, 2003
698
0
0
Its seems as long as you can relate to the terrorist group, they are freedom fighters in your mind. In this case you can justify any terrorist group. As long as their cause isn't "We are killing people for fun.", there will always be people calling them freedom fighters. Americans are shocked and surprised that terrorist such as Osama Bin Laden being called a hero and TShirts are made with the word "hero" and his face on them. Its really no surprise that some people see Hamas, Bin Laden as great heros, but if you see the IRA as an organization that does good you have no right to b**** and moan about others doing the same thing since in your mind terrorism is a good thing.

BTW READ THIS

and THIS

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Zrom999
Its seems as long as you can relate to the terrorist group, they are freedom fighters in your mind. In this case you can justify any terrorist group. As long as their cause isn't "We are killing people for fun.", there will always be people calling them freedom fighters. Americans are shocked and surprised that terrorist such as Osama Bin Laden being called a hero and TShirts are made with the word "hero" and his face on them. Its really no surprise that some people see Hamas, Bin Laden as great heros, but if you see the IRA as an organization that does good you have no right to b**** and moan about others doing the same thing since in your mind terrorism is a good thing.

BTW READ THIS

and THIS
You're right.. that which meets the definition accepted can be defined as such. Which to me means: From your perspective... To some sour cream needs being discarded to others it goes good on baked patato.


A bit o history

I find the whole issue ripe for polarization. I simply point out that all this good stuff I hear about England brings to mind all the bad stuff they have done around the world for centuries... In Israel... In India... Remember Ghandi, and the freedom fighters (terrorists) that led to the state of Israel.. and now the Palestinians... terrorists all... perhaps, depends on from where you view.... AND THAT IS MY POINT!
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
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0
terrorism is OK, as long as you can justify it as a means to a better end.

now, if you just start killing people because you don't like them or have no reason at all except just to kill, then it is not OK.

palestinian terrorism started out to reach that better end, but now it seems they are heading more and more into the category of just killing without thinking about what they are trying to achieve.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: HJD1
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Christoph
They're both. Being a patriot doesn't mean you're not a terrorist.
The IRA liberated the Republic of Ireland in 1916 and they were Patriots although they used terrorist tactics (notice they used Britain's involvement in WWI to declare Independance).

Now the legimate government of Ireland "officially" decries the IRA's tactics and distances themselves from them - but in their hearts support "action" against the British army (although frankly in the South they'd prefer the North just "go away" instead of unite with the rest of Ireland).
Bon Jour, Long time no see.

The Republic tries hard to seem disinterested but in Clonakilty (West Cork) folks use to talk about the old days, Collins and De Velera and all the infighting etc. There they would never dream of allowing Orange day parades to march through their town but, neither would they march through a protestant area just to "flaunt". Ireland is 32 counties not 26.
Aloha . . . I have been very busy with a family member's health problems.

Anyway, I lived in Dublin, Ireland for three years in the '70s (when the first car bombs blew up in Dublin).

The Irish pay "lip-service" to a united Ireland but they don't really want the North with all its problems reunited with the South . . . in the words of many an Irishman, they'd like to see the Northern part of Ireland physically cut off from the rest of the island and set adrift in the North Atlantic.

(it's that much of a "mess" the British deliberately created centuries ago) :p


 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Hi,

I don't want the Irish to go anywhere... I do want the British to go home and leave MY island to figure out what it wants. There is a protestant majority in the North. If they reject reunification with the Republic fine. If they choose to unite fine. But, let them choose without the troops of England there. Sure Ian and co. will never settle for a papist state as they call it and the other factions battling against the catholic minority would go nuts if they were left to fend for them selves but in time equilibrium will set in when everyone sees the fruitlessness of violence.
I just wonder how long it would take to reach that equilibrium - if at all. In the mean time there would be an increase in violence and death, and those perpertrating it may be the calibre of individual who don't see the fruitlessness of violence. What do you suppose is the mandate of the British army who are currently there?

This will occur when the '48 thinking is back to a one Ireland one people but of differing views.... sorta like in the US... it seems.
Do you think that the protestant North would be more ready to break ties with the UK and "vote" for a united Ireland of which they are to be a part of if the British army wasn't there? Possibly so - I could argue the same case for the Irish population in NI with respect to being a part of Britain. Why not give up on being part of Ireland and embrace the UK. The arguement has the same power behind it from both sides IMHO. Both are as equally likely to change their minds also.

BTW.
If I've not said it before; I was born in NYC, the result of my mother being PG when she left Ireland but, not knowing it... thank God for that... otherwise I might never had the chance to spend 6 years '63-'69 in the service. Gee I could have ended up a Poet in Armagh. Or a........ statistic along the Falls Road somewhere.
As an aside, I have but one friend (aside from on this forum)... a good friend though... He's from County Down and a protestant... I was raised Catholic... We are Starbucks regulars;)
I know a few NI myself. Both catholic and protestant. I've learnt that despite popular opinion you can't judge a person by their religion nor do most want to lead the sheltered life within "their own" and hating the other as many would believe - and also that there appears to be a NI majority who realise that violence is only going to send them down the bad roads once again (though if you had driven around the "famous" streets of Belfast taking in the murals and graffiti you may have thought otherwise).

Maybe the Good Friday agreement is too idealistic and will never work - or maybe any deal that remains with a British military presence in NI (or civilian too in some minds) will never satisfy the catholic majority - be them silent or not - but this does seem to be the best solution for a long time - as long as I can remember and it certianly holds the most promise for a lasting peace.

Cheers :),

Andy
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Hi Apoppin,
I hope all is well your end.

Yes, I've heard that often about setting adrift the 6 counties of the North... of course only in the Republic. In the North where many of my people are from the attitude runs from apathy to fierce anger from both sides. The only differnce that I find is that the minority folks with continued anger blame the English... I blame the Irish who wish to constantly put down the minority. My mother named me (don't laugh) Harold-James... sorta like a boy named Sue.. Never really found out why. My point continues to be that a terrorist is called such by folks upon whom the acts are committed and patriot by those who see their agenda being put forth and that the acts are those that have the greatest affect... being dead from MOAB or tiny little bomb is dead... the notion that there is a decent way of killing, to me is nutty.


Hi Andy,

I subscribe to the notion that when you remove the thorne you enable the wound to heal and the victim to perhaps walk... I say perhaps because the IRA seems to thrive on the violence and has lost sight of the reality of peace. It has evolved to take on a differn't life and one that even with peace would find a reason to exist or create it.
I also say "Nothing ventured nothing gained. Something ventured something gained" So if the English wanted they could leave Ireland with the demand that the Protestant leaders cease their violence allow the other side to keep its guns and all and demand they cease violent action with the threat of something neither side wants.. what ever that may be. Let them be forced to deal with each other... Trimble has risked much in this issue... I don't care for his history but, his present and future were important.. I want peace there not violence... I want it to be like where I grew up in NYC... we were poor very poor and lived in an area where we could afford... gramma and me. We were the only white folks there... had no idea there were issues other than religious ones and only those because of the history my gramma made sure I knew about... every detail.. every relative who died. She wanted me to know so I'd carry it with me and hand it down... she was bitter... very bitter... hated actually. I listened, absorbed and felt the hate... but, along the way I lost it all or it was never real to me... I don't know. I do know that there are many who like the Iraqi or anyone else oppressed want the message of hate to invade and control the lives of as many as can be reached. Some will reject the message but, some will embrace it. It is this that, in Ireland, will not change until the stimuli of the hate is no longer present... Some will die in the process... but let the process begin now and if not now when? When do we end the insanity of violence.
Your last statement "...holds the best promise for a lasting peace..." generations from now will still be fighting if the venom of hate is not replaced with the nectur of compassion.
The arrogant elite of the North refuse to stoop to see even the dirt on their shoes let alone the reality of their superior exhalted selves as being unreal.. they are no better a person than the poor catholic in the ghetto. It won't change today... but, in two or three generations from now if the stimuli for it is gone... it may. Remember centuries of this has occured in Ireland... The Republic is happy and is gaining apathy... there is no stimuli to violence there... what left?

edit; you said Catholic majority... they are in the minority population wise in the North.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,674
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Usually we are what we are surrounded by. When the tremendous irtony of that fact begins to dawn on ones consciousness one begins to see that wones whole being is a lie. Learning is unlearning.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Usually we are what we are surrounded by. When the tremendous irtony of that fact begins to dawn on ones consciousness one begins to see that wones whole being is a lie. Learning is unlearning.
No truer a statement could be made... especially, in the case of preceived superiority.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,674
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The notion of personal superiority rests on an unconscious feeling of worthlessness. It's always the strong who are kind. They feel they can afford it, that it costs them nothing.
 

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