Are people who oppose death penalty naive?

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Why have the government kill someone I'm perfectly willing to kill myself?

Internet Tough guy alert.

When I try to place myself in the situation of the aftermath of someone hurting my children, frankly, I see myself in prison... and in a 30 second clip of "Courtroom Outrages XI" on the Tru Channel.

Yup, a tiny thread of your childhood trauma leaks up to consciousness and off you go into a daydream. It's called being asleep and it can happen in the garden on a perfectly beautiful day. Instead of the beauty of the garden your struggling with demons, rehearsing and stoking your hate. It's also called hell.

Really? I thought it was just considering a hypothetical situation.

Oh well... I'm not so good at these deep philosophical discussions. I defer to Moonbeam. If he says I'm living in hell, then I must be .

I understand fully the smugness intended in your remark, by the way, and your defensive reaction to what I said and your need to flip me off but let me tell you you waste your time. I am just as much in hell as you and nothing you can say or do will make it worse.

There's no smugness in my reply at all - at least there wasn't intended to be - and I certainly do not need/wish to "flip you off." My remark was really just the product of having on idea wtf you were talking about and me chalking it up to lost nuance over the Internet.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: actuarial
I can't support the killing of a human being. Intentionally taking a life, unless in self defense, is murder. The fact that it is done in a calculated manner for the purpose of revenge makes it MORE heinous, not less. We actually punish people who act like this more than people who get in a fit of rage and kill.

Haven't we as humans evolved past this old testament 'eye for an eye' yet?

Ironically, when I was once a "religious man," I was wholly against the death penalty (you know, the whole "thou shall not kill" thing). It wasn't until I escaped from religion that I began to come to terms with it.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn
I am against the death penalty not because I oppose retribution for the wicked, but because the justice system is imperfect. Any risk of terminating an innocent innocent life, no matter how minor or small the risk, is far too great.

I don't know of an absolute method in use in courts used to determine guilt/innocence with 100% certainty and 0% chance of error, so therefore, a permanent and irreversible penalty taking everything and leaving nothing is excessive.

Pro or anti abortion?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers. I'm not worried about forgiving the current criminals actions, I'm concerned about how this makes a future criminal less likely to restrain himself. Look at China-- hardly any homicides there, you can't get out of a murder no ifs-ands-or-buts.

If you want it to be about forgiveness then you should get a church involved, get the criminal coming, see if he converts and shows some real fruit of change. Otherwise no getting off death penalty; also, esp. if death penalty is cheaper than keeping people in prison for life, then they should be put to death.

Does not work.

Works pretty well for me. I prefer life to death.

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Works pretty well for me. I prefer life to death.

You prefer life in prison to death? That's what we're comparing here.

Are you saying you are less likely to kill someone in a state where there's a death penalty than a state where they'd put you in prison for life? If not, then it has no effect on you, and I know the wife (degree in criminology) has told me most studies show that harsher punishments do not deter criminals (to varying degrees).

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers. I'm not worried about forgiving the current criminals actions, I'm concerned about how this makes a future criminal less likely to restrain himself. Look at China-- hardly any homicides there, you can't get out of a murder no ifs-ands-or-buts.

If you want it to be about forgiveness then you should get a church involved, get the criminal coming, see if he converts and shows some real fruit of change. Otherwise no getting off death penalty; also, esp. if death penalty is cheaper than keeping people in prison for life, then they should be put to death.

Does not work.

Works pretty well for me. I prefer life to death.

So the only thing keeping you from killing someone is that you might get the death penalty?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: tk149
Or they simply believe that government should not be in the business of killing.

This. State sponsored killing is bad for society. It cheapens all life and radically changes the relationship between a government and the people that government is supposed to work for.

 

[Jmman]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
If you oppose the death penalty, do you really think about what it would be like to have a loved one murdered?

Yes, I do, I really think what it would be like to have an innocent family member put to death by the State for a crime he/she didn't commit.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Jmman
Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

I fully understand where you're coming from in this case, but I still oppose the death penalty.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Jmman
Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

So you dreaming up ways to brutally murder someone is perfectly rational thinking then.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Jmman
Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

So you dreaming up ways to brutally murder someone is perfectly rational thinking then.

If it happened to your child, you wouldn't be debating it on an internet forum and would have these same emotions.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Jmman
Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

So you dreaming up ways to brutally murder someone is perfectly rational thinking then.

If it happened to your child, you wouldn't be debating it on an internet forum and would have these same emotions.

If you were falsely accused of killing a child and found guilty, you might want to continue the debate.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers.

Does not work.

Of course it works. Go look up homicide per capita by country. Here's a 2nd list where China isn't even in the top 60 despite having the highest population in the world. If China doesn't have the death penalty, or uses the retarded 20+ year appeals system for deathrow inmates like the US, they would lead the world in inmates. But they don't because they execute criminals convicted of murder shortly after the verdict. It's all about efficiency and making sure would be criminals know this. It's working pretty damn well for them.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Baked

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers.

Does not work.

Of course it works. Go look up homicide per capita by country. Here's a 2nd list where China isn't even in the top 60 despite having the highest population in the world. If China doesn't have the death penalty, or uses the retarded 20+ year appeals system for deathrow inmates like the US, they would lead the world in inmates. But they don't because they execute criminals convicted of murder shortly after the verdict. It's all about efficiency and making sure would be criminals know this. It's working pretty damn well for them.

Who provided the figures for China?
Why do you draw a correlation between the death penalty and a reduced homicide rate?
You provided a link to Wikipedia, can you explain why the related link cited below states that the US has one of the highest murder rates amongst developed countries given that the death penalty is in operation in certain states?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Demographics

Finally, can you explain the following statistics?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.or...tly-lower-murder-rates

 

[surfsatwerk]

Originally posted by: Baked

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers.

Does not work.

Of course it works. Go look up homicide per capita by country. Here's a 2nd list where China isn't even in the top 60 despite having the highest population in the world. If China doesn't have the death penalty, or uses the retarded 20+ year appeals system for deathrow inmates like the US, they would lead the world in inmates. But they don't because they execute criminals convicted of murder shortly after the verdict. It's all about efficiency and making sure would be criminals know this. It's working pretty damn well for them.

China executes people for lots of reasons other than what we would consider a capital crime. And one has to assume that such a speedy judicial system has sent many an innocent man to the gallows.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Jmman
Sorry to bump an old thread, but if anyone deserves the death penalty, it is that sick in head f'd up couple who kidnapped that girl and kept her hostage for 18 years. As a parent, I can't even imagine what her and her parents are going through right now. If I was given the option I would gladly carry out the sentence myself by using what I have learned from the "Saw" movie series......bastages......:|

So you dreaming up ways to brutally murder someone is perfectly rational thinking then.

If it happened to your child, you wouldn't be debating it on an internet forum and would have these same emotions.

If you were falsely accused of killing a child and found guilty, you might want to continue the debate.

Very true.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: Baked

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Death penalty is not about forgiveness-- it's about providing a dis-incentive to future murderers.

Does not work.

Of course it works. Go look up homicide per capita by country. Here's a 2nd list where China isn't even in the top 60 despite having the highest population in the world. If China doesn't have the death penalty, or uses the retarded 20+ year appeals system for deathrow inmates like the US, they would lead the world in inmates. But they don't because they execute criminals convicted of murder shortly after the verdict. It's all about efficiency and making sure would be criminals know this. It's working pretty damn well for them.

Don't let the facts get in the way of making things up.

I shouldn't be amazed that rightwingers look to China for inspiration on human rights and the corrections systems.

 

[JSt0rm]

I dont think revenge of the "family" should be a reason to kill someone. I say do with people whatever is cheapest. It seems cheapest is life in prison so that.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: Harvey
[*]It has nothing to do saving money because it costs the state more to execute killers than to warehouse them for life.

No, it doesn't cost more to kill them than lock them up for life, the extra cost are the burden of a death row case, and all the extras that come along with it, extra appleals, prosecutors/defense, lengths for the trials, two trials instead of one (guilt, and then punishment), more time for jurors to be selected, and then once they are convicted, and on death row, there's more appleals, more lawyers, and on, and on. That is a distorted, and disingenuous argument at best.

 

[soccerballtux]

We should make the death penalty more painful.

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: Harvey
[*]It has nothing to do saving money because it costs the state more to execute killers than to warehouse them for life.

No, it doesn't cost more to kill them than lock them up for life, the extra cost are the burden of a death row case, and all the extras that come along with it, extra appleals, prosecutors/defense, lengths for the trials, two trials instead of one (guilt, and then punishment), more time for jurors to be selected, and then once they are convicted, and on death row, there's more appleals, more lawyers, and on, and on. That is a distorted, and disingenuous argument at best.

no it isn't. that's the cost of a death sentence in this country. and I wouldn't have it any other way. with the way the justice system is in this country, the risk of executing an innocent person is just too great. If you want it cheaper, go to China.

And I feel death is an easy way out for someone who gets that sentence, let them rot in solitary confinement if they really did the crime.

 

[Tab]

Of all the political and philosphocial issues I'd say the death penalty is the only thing I haven't come to a solid stance on. When it comes to self-defense and wartime I see the killing of another justified but when a suspect is apprehended and convicted of murder I'm not so sure. While, yes there are innocent people whom are/have been put to death but what's the difference between life spent behind bars and death? Of course, it's been said that it's less expensive to imprison someone for life but is that justice to let a murder live?

 

[Jmman]

Nobody wants the chance of an innocent man getting the death penalty. I think the death penalty should only be applicable in cases where the evidence is incontrovertable that the accused committed the crime, ie DNA evidence, confessions, etc. .......

 

[jonks]

On the story now in the news about Cameron Todd Willingham, executed in Texas. Tell me, am I naive in not wanting to be on trial for my LIFE, when the following evidence is counted as admissible against me by an "expert" who's friends with the DA, and who never even met me?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...8/an-innocent-man.html

"At one point, Jackson showed Gregory Exhibit No. 60?a photograph of an Iron Maiden poster that had hung in Willingham?s house?and asked the psychologist to interpret it. ?This one is a picture of a skull, with a fist being punched through the skull,? Gregory said; the image displayed ?violence? and ?death.? Gregory looked at photographs of other music posters owned by Willingham. ?There?s a hooded skull, with wings and a hatchet,? Gregory continued. ?And all of these are in fire, depicting?it reminds me of something like Hell. And there?s a picture?a Led Zeppelin picture of a falling angel. . . . I see there?s an association many times with cultive-type of activities. A focus on death, dying. Many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic-type activities.?"
********


So there you have it. Heavy metal posters = sociopathic killer. And they did sentence this guy to death, and they did kill him, at least in part because of these experts' testimony. No thanks.

Oh, and one of the star witnessess who claimed the defendant confessed to him while in prison? Great one on that guy:

"When I recently asked Webb...why Willingham would have confessed to a virtual stranger, he said that he knew only what ?the dude told me.? After I pressed him, he said, ?It?s very possible I misunderstood what he said.? Since the trial, Webb has been given an additional diagnosis, bipolar disorder. ?Being locked up in that little cell makes you kind of crazy,? he said. ?My memory is in bits and pieces. I was on a lot of medication at the time. Everyone knew that.? He paused, then said, ?The statute of limitations has run out on perjury, hasn?t it??