Are people no longer concerned about ESD ?

[mikeymikec]

Furthermore i am very shocked that you have built so many computers and have never received a anti static straps with your parts. The parts i have ordered (way less than 150 builds) have had special gloves, straps all kinds of things, maybe you wrap your hardware in bubble wrap too instead of anti static bags, i mean esd is a myth right?

No-one has said that ESD is a myth, so dispense with the straw man.

You also sound funny, how can i prove it is working? Simple,a device known as a oscilloscope? perhaps a multi meter.

That doesn't prove anything in relation to your argument, because your argument calls for proof for something that you haven't even quantified yet. It would be like saying that drinking tap water is killing people and everyone should drink filtered water, but not showing any evidence of what tap water contains and is doing to people that filtered water is not. It may well be the case that filtered water is healthier to drink, just as it may well be the case that not using an anti-static strip is damaging hardware in some way, but since you have nothing to base your argument on, you may as well be claiming that working with PC components without an anti-static strip angers the gods and that judgement is coming.

If you want to continue to argue you can, but saying because ive built 150 pc and havnt completely killed more than 1 hd ram stick mainboard, that it is completely safe, is not much of a argument, i can drive 100 mph daily for years and still know that there is a risk even with zero crashes.

Lets pretend that none of your builds had any ESD occur at all. So what % should we worry about things? even with a strap yes im sure ESD happens too.

You've also failed to understand the argument that is contrary to your position. People have advised that they do such-and-such and have not experienced any problems associated with ESD (such as what VirtualLarry described). No-one has said that this approach guarantees anything. I have not argued that my experience actually definitively means anything.

Others are saying what they have observed, and you're arguing based on something you haven't observed (or at least you haven't bothered to enlighten us of the details). Do you not see the logical flaw in your position?

 

[LTC8K6]

I never worry about it with my own stuff, only when I am working on someone else's stuff.

If it ever caused a problem on my computers, I can't recall.

 

[UsandThem]

So they can just hold a crescent wrench in their hand and that should keep ESD risks down?

Seriously, I've already told you several times I am done responding to you. Go annoy someone else.

 

[killster1]

No-one has said that ESD is a myth, so dispense with the straw man.



That doesn't prove anything in relation to your argument, because your argument calls for proof for something that you haven't even quantified yet. It would be like saying that drinking tap water is killing people and everyone should drink filtered water, but not showing any evidence of what tap water contains and is doing to people that filtered water is not. It may well be the case that filtered water is healthier to drink, just as it may well be the case that not using an anti-static strip is damaging hardware in some way, but since you have nothing to base your argument on, you may as well be claiming that working with PC components without an anti-static strip angers the gods and that judgement is coming.



You've also failed to understand the argument that is contrary to your position. People have advised that they do such-and-such and have not experienced any problems associated with ESD (such as what VirtualLarry described). No-one has said that this approach guarantees anything. I have not argued that my experience actually definitively means anything.

Others are saying what they have observed, and you're arguing based on something you haven't observed (or at least you haven't bothered to enlighten us of the details). Do you not see the logical flaw in your position?

I didn't actually read all the words you wrote, but just one thing.. You do suggest touching the case ? once a min? once a hour? once a sitting? If i dont use a strap i hold on to the case the entire time the work is being done. So maybe someone that doesn't have 150 builds should use a strap and also touch the side of the case every min (if they remember). I really dont care about the argument i am more interested in giving people advice that will save their parts.

Everyone doesn't live in the same environment.
Everyone doesn't wear the same clothing.
Everyone is not sitting / standing on the same material.

So for the sake of this guy possibly spending his hard earned money lets help him make a good choice.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I don't think that anyone is really arguing strongly against people using wrist straps and anti-static mats. I got started out doing just that, and, pro-tip, using an anti-static mat, protects the desk that the PC is on, if you're ever working on a client's machine at their site, so you that you don't scratch it.

Just that, it may not be strictly necessary, in all cases, in the grand scheme of things.

Remember too, that they used to sell lighted power strips that would fit under your CRT, with an anti-static pad that you were supposed to touch, BEFORE YOU TOUCHED YOUR COMPUTER KEYBOARD.

Notice, that they don't really sell them anymore.

If ESD was such a problem, in the general case, that you claim, then why aren't these products still selling, and still necessary for users not to fry their PCs with static, every time that they sit down to use them?

Edit: This is like the argument for Anti-Virus software. There are those that argue that everyone "needs" to be "protected", and that to be "protected", one "needs" Anti-Virus software.

Well, sometimes, good habits go a long way.

And those in the know, know that A-V software can oftentimes cause more problems, and expose more "attack surface", than not. In fact, many Microsoft Windows OS developers, consider A-V software harmful (Google that phrase), because continued compatibility with A-V software, prevents them from implementing better security into the OS itself.

Edit: And for the A-V software argument, there's a reason that A-V software is often given away for free. Basically, because it has zero real value.

 

[killster1]

I don't think that anyone is really arguing strongly against people using wrist straps and anti-static mats. I got started out doing just that, and, pro-tip, using an anti-static mat, protects the desk that the PC is on, if you're ever working on a client's machine at their site, so you that you don't scratch it.

Just that, it may not be strictly necessary, in all cases, in the grand scheme of things.

Remember too, that they used to sell lighted power strips that would fit under your CRT, with an anti-static pad that you were supposed to touch, BEFORE YOU TOUCHED YOUR COMPUTER KEYBOARD.

Notice, that they don't really sell them anymore.

If ESD was such a problem, in the general case, that you claim, then why aren't these products still selling, and still necessary for users not to fry their PCs with static, every time that they sit down to use them?

You are talking to me? i said ESD was such a problem? It just boils down to how much you care. Do you use a sine wave ups? Do you use a ups? do you use a power strip? do you have a lightning rod?

You are the one who said you killed a card by being in bed with it. now you are saying dont worry for it?

its not strictly necessary in all cases? So then someone playing it safe wouldn't pretend to know what all of the scenarios might be, so they should just hold on to the case unless two hands are needed at that exact time, if they would like to be extra precautions they can use a esd strap. Its funny i flat out said how often should they touch the case?, guess what you didn't comment on that.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You are the one who said you killed a card by being in bed with it. now you are saying dont worry for it?

I kind of hinted that I might have. Or perhaps, it was just DOA from the factory (there were some reviews of those). Or maybe, the PCB and mounting bracket were just slightly askew on that card, and it wasn't seating properly. It simply wasn't detected, but by the same token, it didn't prevent the PC from booting either, like a shorted-out or fried card might have.

OTOH, I've opened up and worked on several of my laptops, in that same bed, and never fried anything. So, I guess, YMMV when working on PCs in your bed.

Edit: It should be noted, that I don't work on customer's systems, while I'm in bed. I just treat my own stuff a little "rougher". It has mostly held up just fine, however.

 

[mikeymikec]

I didn't actually read all the words you wrote, but just one thing.. You do suggest touching the case ? once a min? once a hour? once a sitting? If i dont use a strap i hold on to the case the entire time the work is being done. So maybe someone that doesn't have 150 builds should use a strap and also touch the side of the case every min (if they remember). I really dont care about the argument i am more interested in giving people advice that will save their parts.

Everyone doesn't live in the same environment.
Everyone doesn't wear the same clothing.
Everyone is not sitting / standing on the same material.

So for the sake of this guy possibly spending his hard earned money lets help him make a good choice.

Don't try to move the goalposts. You started out by pretty much flat-out saying that UsAndThem had damaged his components by not wearing a wrist strap. That's what I took issue with, and frankly if you can't be bothered to read my posts then I feel no need to help you by providing advice.

If you want to say "here are precautions, it's unlikely to hurt if you take them", that would be an entirely different (and actually fairly reasonable up to a point) argument, instead of your accusations, straw men, insults and other silliness, I doubt that anyone would have a word to say against it. There are people here, myself included, who have plenty of experience with the innards of computers, so instead of trying to back-pedal from some very strongly-worded points you made and then realised that they're almost completely without scientific base, you should apologise and listen to advice.

Frankly if I was teaching a newbie entirely myself (and the OP had not indicated that they wanted anything like that), most of my advice to avoid significant ESD scenarios would be covered by sensible handling of components with a couple of separate footnotes regarding ESD explicitly. If you browse the hardware forums here, you'll observe that newbies have damaged components in a myriad of other ways far more commonly (such as incorrectly installing an Intel CPU and bending the board pins) than causing potentially damaging ESD scenarios.

 

[killster1]

Don't try to move the goalposts. You started out by pretty much flat-out saying that UsAndThem had damaged his components by not wearing a wrist strap. That's what I took issue with, and frankly if you can't be bothered to read my posts then I feel no need to help you by providing advice.

If you want to say "here are precautions, it's unlikely to hurt if you take them", that would be an entirely different (and actually fairly reasonable up to a point) argument, instead of your accusations, straw men, insults and other silliness, I doubt that anyone would have a word to say against it. There are people here, myself included, who have plenty of experience with the innards of computers, so instead of trying to back-pedal from some very strongly-worded points you made and then realised that they're almost completely without scientific base, you should apologise and listen to advice.

Frankly if I was teaching a newbie entirely myself (and the OP had not indicated that they wanted anything like that), most of my advice to avoid significant ESD scenarios would be covered by sensible handling of components with a couple of separate footnotes regarding ESD explicitly. If you browse the hardware forums here, you'll observe that newbies have damaged components in a myriad of other ways far more commonly (such as incorrectly installing an Intel CPU and bending the board pins) than causing potentially damaging ESD scenarios.

apologise?
apologize?

If you cared about the OP you would answer as to how often / when to touch the side of his case. He also mentioned his case was painted, i know you are to busy defending people to answer the OP but the thread is here for him, not me.

sweet you fail to answer it as well. the advice is not for me as i wont take your advice. the advice is to those who read the thread. And i stand 100% behind my argument that usandtehem's actions led to ESD OCCURRING. i will not argue that fact as we all know it did. The argument might be how do we determine if the damage was immediately measurable and how long after would it take to show.

Who is to say what causes a part to fail ultimately? was it heat? what was it that led to a shorter life? because of a mishandled moment of its life? Im sure most people have shorted out cmos chips and just thought it was a glitch and had to change all the settings over again.

How about the question of a mishandled stick of ram, will it immediately show errors on memtest86? Will it show up 2 months later as bsod? Will it be easy to determine why the stick of ram died (if not instantly) and if rubbing it on the carpet had a effect on its life span? Sounds like a interesting test for a science fair

Ok and officially i have been ordered to "Stay out of the thread" SO thats all folks, you can choose to answer the op or to attack me (since i wont be able to reply )




You were ordered out of the thread and not to post anymore.
So what do you do? You come back to your post, edit it to to post more information.

Do you understand what you did?


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[mikeymikec]

And i stand 100% behind my argument that usandtehem's actions led to ESD OCCURRING. i will not argue that fact as we all know it did. The argument might be how do we determine if the damage was immediately measurable and how long after would it take to show.

Err, what? UsAndThem mentioned a graphics card with a failed fan. I would ask by what leap of logic do you attribute a failed fan to an ESD event, but frankly even the designers of the hardware we use would shy away from asserting with 100% certainty the reason for a particular fan failing when they haven't even been given any evidence, let alone the idea that it could be ESD related, your complete confidence in your diagnostic abilities only serves to completely convince me that your confidence is entirely baseless along with your assertions.

If the OP wishes to ask questions, he will. There is no need to feign concern on his behalf. Every question he has asked has been answered, to his satisfaction apparently.

I am done discussing this with you, as I have no hope remaining that you will indicate any evidence base for your assertions let alone determining any kind of logical underpinning of your opinions.

 

[ch33zw1z]

People don't care as much, I would speculate due to the costs of components now.

That being said, always wear one at work because that's muh job. Wear one at home when I remember to.

If I don't have one on me, and I'm at work, some bare part of my hand or arm touches an unpainted surface of the device I'm working on the whole time.

I always get a good chuckle out of a run I had with a customers customer once. I was working at a retail store, and swapping out a system board, when a patron said to me: "hey! You have to wear a wrist strap, I went to school for computer repair, and you have to stay grounded with a wrist strap" ( or something very similar)

I replied: "tell me what a wrist strap does, and I'll tell you why I'm not wearing one" (I had forgotten it in the van)

Patron replied: "it keeps you grounded"

I replied: "no, that's not correct, it minimizes potential difference between me and that chassis. So does keeping my hand on the frame the whole time, which it has been,"

Patron didn't reply and left me alone after that, lol...

 

[VirtualLarry]

Patron replied: "it keeps you grounded"

I replied: "no, that's not correct, it minimizes potential difference between me and that chassis. So does keeping my hand on the frame the whole time, which it has been,"

Yes, a lot of people don't realize the difference, or why it matters. You are correct, sir.

 

[aigomorla]

i have only used those wrist straps like twice in my entire life...
That is only when i was at the office where just rubbing the carpet with your feet would generate static.

Otherwise i have not had a issue with ESD.
Like Ch33z states just touching the steel case from time to time is going to ground you.

Were not building a PC next to high voltage transformers.

But again, YMMV.

If you feel you are in a area with high static, or you just happen to change clothes fresh from the dryer, then by all means, make sure your grounded.

If your building a PC on a wood floor, and you rarely notice static eletricity zapping you when you touch a door knob, then im fairly sure you dont need to worry about ESD.

Well, not unless u got an alien mothership hanging over you about to fire its main cannon.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, not unless u got an alien mothership hanging over you about to fire its main cannon.

LOL! +1

 

[UsandThem]

i have only used those wrist straps like twice in my entire life...
That is only when i was at the office where just rubbing the carpet with your feet would generate static.

Otherwise i have not had a issue with ESD.
Like Ch33z states just touching the steel case from time to time is going to ground you.

Were not building a PC next to high voltage transformers.

But again, YMMV.

If you feel you are in a area with high static, or you just happen to change clothes fresh from the dryer, then by all means, make sure your grounded.

If your building a PC on a wood floor, and you rarely notice static eletricity zapping you when you touch a door knob, then im fairly sure you dont need to worry about ESD.

Well, not unless u got an alien mothership hanging over you about to fire its main cannon.

Yeah, this thread went in a much different direction than I thought it would. I still stand by what I said, and I've never had a problem or damaged anything. But if a person is concerned about it, or has a case where every spot is painted (I've never come across a case like that, but there may be a few out there), just buy a wrist strap. I'll continue to do it how I've always done it without issue. From laptops to towers, I've never had any cause for concern.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The problems with ESD damaged components are not typically outright failures, which makes it even more of a PITB. It's something you're likely to not even associate with ESD when the weakened component has problems down the road.

 

[UsandThem]

The problems with ESD damaged components are not typically outright failures, which makes it even more of a PITB. It's something you're likely to not even associate with ESD when the weakened component has problems down the road.

But what if there aren't any problems down the road? I have desktops and laptops that I've worked or built, that are still in use 8+ years later. A couple of the PCs do Folding@Home 24/7 with not even a crash.

I just think if I was damaging stuff, I would have experienced odd problems. But that said, there's no way to prove, or disprove of this unless some type of professional test was done in a controlled environment and did readings on a person's electrical charge when using a wrist band vs. not using one.

 

[ch33zw1z]

But what if there aren't any problems down the road? I have desktops and laptops that I've worked or built, that are still in use 8+ years later. A couple of the PCs do Folding@Home 24/7 with not even a crash.

I just think if I was damaging stuff, I would have experienced odd problems. But that said, there's no way to prove, or disprove of this unless some type of professional test was done in a controlled environment and did readings on a person's electrical charge when using a wrist band vs. not using one.

Right, so if it's a concern, then strap it on

I do ESD training yearly for my employer, I use ESD almost every time I work on something at work.

During the winter, I use it even at home as well because it's dry and more likely to occur.

My point was that ESD rarely causes dead components immediately. It is more likely to cause intermittent problems which can be hard to pin down.

 

[UsandThem]

Right, so if it's a concern, then strap it on

I do ESD training yearly for my employer, I use ESD almost every time I work on something at work.

During the winter, I use it even at home as well because it's dry and more likely to occur.

My point was that ESD rarely causes dead components immediately. It is more likely to cause intermittent problems which can be hard to pin down.

If I worked on PCs commercially like a business, I would use ESD straps as I imagine the insurance a person carries would require it. But as far as working on my personal machines, or family member's PCs, I've never used one. I just ground myself before picking up a component.

I look at it kind of like pumping gas. The signs say to ground yourself after getting out of the vehicle before filling because static electricity can ignite gas vapors. So I do that by touching my car one time when I exit my car, and I haven't been blown up yet.

Now there has been a few times when I've been pumping gas, and I see someone smoking a cigarette with one hand, and pumping gas with the other one.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I dunno about the insurance, but I know who ends up with the next service visit when the ESD damaged component gets wonky. C.Y.A. all the way lol.

 

[Ranulf]

I hear we're on the verge of an era that all you need now is an orange rubber wrist band and rubber pads on the bottom of a case for the PSU to prevent ESD from happening.

At home I currently have thick carpet and a usually mild humidity so I'll wear rubber shoes, touch a case or metal and make sure I'm not wearing say, a fleece sweater or jacket. For most builds over the years I don't think I've used one more than 1-2 times. The 2-3 straps I have are in a box somewhere, lonely.

 

[barleybob]

While waiting for the parts for my new build to arrive, I have been watching quite a few build videos. One thing I have noticed is that there are a lot of people handling there hardware with no visible protection against ESD(electrostatic discharge). Some will have a wrist strap, but many do not. Is this not a concern anymore?

Do you think this guy cares about ESD ?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

It's simple: Best practices is to use the gear. I never have, and have had the same experience as others here have stated. I.E. never had a problem. I guess that is the live on the razor's edge, laugh in the face of danger, life, some of us lead.

 

[nerp]

I always seem to build in the summer when the humidity is insane. Just my timing.

 

[Arkaign]

It's simple: Best practices is to use the gear. I never have, and have had the same experience as others here have stated. I.E. never had a problem. I guess that is the live on the razor's edge, laugh in the face of danger, life, some of us lead.

Reading this thread was hilarious 😂 and I agree, I don't normally take extreme measures when working with PCs, and I've probably worked on deep into the thousands of them since the 80s by now.

What I do is not move around or build things around carpeting, and when handling components I hold them by the edges, instead of holding any contact points or PCB surfaces directly. This includes the underside of hard drives, backs of GPUs (when missing backplates), etc. Thus, I've seen exceptionally rare true DOA new items, and have seen no evidence of ESD issues when handling things with care and attention. I often cringe when I see even some famous YouTube tech guys (Timmy Joe is terrible about this lol) literally manhandling components and just rubbing his hands all over PCB surfaces and contact points carelessly.

As always, YMMV, but hardware in general seems more robust these days.