Are Macs *THAT* much better for editing over the PC?

[Dennis Travis]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
I have heard this too. Some people say that Windows is more organized. In OS 9 though, the Apple menu was like the start menu. You had access to many apps and the control panels. I also dont put application links on my desktop. Doesnt look right. I just have the 2 folders and the HD, FireWire icons. I keep all my apps down in the dock, so my desktop stays clean. I think of the dock like the start menu, except I dont have to click Start to access my apps. My apps are right at the bottom of the screen, and if I want to open, I just click it. The dock is a nice tool. Keeps me from having to open up any windows just to access my apps.

Oh yea, when I was using my HP Kayak, it only had a whopping 74mb of disk space left!! After running disk clean up, we recovered over 3 gigs of HD space!! Which is a very very good thing because the HP was running terribly, but now it runs very good.

EDIT: BTW, here is my neat desktop.
Click Me!

You can also click on the Go in the Apple Menu bar and the Applications and Utilities folder are there as well as Networking and other options.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Totally forgot about that. That is also helpful. Thanks for mentioning that.

 

[Malak]

My desktop

I don't use explorer as a shell. In fact, I just use windows as the OS, I don't use any other microsoft products on it.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Thats a clean looking desktop. You dont even have anything on your desktop at all! You dont use Office XP? I cant live without Office on my Mac. Our HP is cluttered with garbage on the Desktop. It wasnt taken care of very well.

 

[Malak]

I use open office.

 

[Dennis Travis]

Cool, Another Open Office person. I use it in OSX, Suse 9.2 and XP.

 

[Philippine Mango]

Still, icons that link to programs are scattered over even the best organized mac desktop. The OS 9 menu is just not good enough for me because it's only of recently used applications..

 

[halfadder]

Mac OS 7 thru 9 generate the Apple menu from the "Apple Menu Items" folder inside the main "System Folder" folder. You can customize the menu all you want by adding/moving/deleting folders and shortcuts/aliases inside that folder. When I used older "Classic" versions of Mac OS, the only icons on my desktop were from the hard drives, the trash can, and my personal files folder.

The Recent Applications / Recent Documents / Recent Servers folders can be added/deleted by using the Apple Menu Options control panel. Some folks used to replace the Apple Menu Options control panel with an even more flexible utility, but I don't recall it's name. I haven't used the "Classic" Mac OS 9 or older since 2001. This is all from memory... and I've been trying to forget my Mac OS 9 memories!!

The Apple Menu was very handy for those who actually knew what to do with it. The average user was scared to look at the System Folder and probably didn't even know about the Apple Menu Items folder inside.

 

[Dennis Travis]

Originally posted by: halfadder
Mac OS 7 thru 9 generate the Apple menu from the "Apple Menu Items" folder inside the main "System Folder" folder. You can customize the menu all you want by adding/moving/deleting folders and shortcuts/aliases inside that folder. When I used older "Classic" versions of Mac OS, the only icons on my desktop were from the hard drives, the trash can, and my personal files folder.

The Recent Applications / Recent Documents / Recent Servers folders can be added/deleted by using the Apple Menu Options control panel. Some folks used to replace the Apple Menu Options control panel with an even more flexible utility, but I don't recall it's name. I haven't used the "Classic" Mac OS 9 or older since 2001. This is all from memory... and I've been trying to forget my Mac OS 9 memories!!

The Apple Menu was very handy for those who actually knew what to do with it. The average user was scared to look at the System Folder and probably didn't even know about the Apple Menu Items folder inside.

I to loved that Apple Menu Items folder. I used it like the Start Menu in windows and had all my programs there and nothing on my desktop but drives. You are correct, so many I knew did not even know it was there or what it did but the ones that did loved it. So far under OSX the only thing even close is the Go menu like I already posted but I see no way to add or change it so far. Doing some searching to see if there is a way!!!!

 

[hopejr]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Still, icons that link to programs are scattered over even the best organized mac desktop. The OS 9 menu is just not good enough for me because it's only of recently used applications..

I think you're confusing versions . Back when there was no dock (OS 9 and below), people used to use the desktop as a place to store aliases (shortcuts) to programs. Now, with the dock, that is no longer necessary. Most OS X desktops that I've seen (other than ones on computers in public places) have only the hdd and other mounted drive icons, and maybe a couple of folders (usually not). The recently used apps thing is only really in OS X (it was in OS 9 and below, but those weren't the only shortcuts in the apple menu, as you could add more that were permanent, even a "Programs" menu if you wanted, to make it look more like windows).
To fix the Safari cluttering the desktop problem, I've made a "Downloads" folder on my desktop where everything is put automatically

BTW, here's my desktop.

 

[Dennis Travis]

hopejr, Very good Idea. I have a Download folder in Documents so I just pointed Safari there.

 

[halfadder]

One nice thing about Mac OS 9 and earlier was that the OS and its System Folder were insanely simple. Every file had a long descriptive name and a meaninful icon. When in doubt, the Extensions Manager control panel gave more info and could even group together related files. It only took about 200 files to make Mac OS 8.... Mac OS 9 wasn't much worse, although I didn't spend much time with it.

Mac OS X is a big beast monster though. It's about 10x more complex than NeXTSTEP and at least twice as complex as a normal FreeBSD installation. No wonder the "Mac OS X Bible" type books are 1400 pages! Well, my PowerBook came with 10.3.1 preinstalled. I have used Software Update over the past 12 months and I'm now running 10.3.7 plus many newer versions of the bundled applications all updated semi-automatically. It still works and I reboot maybe once a month (I normally put my PowerBook to "sleep"). I keep backing up my data onto my usb flash drive though, as I'm still not that trusting. I was able to resurrect ailing Mac OS 8 systems.... but I don't think I would have a chance if Mac OS X decided to give out on me!

Have any of you Mac guys worked with any of the Mac OS X repair and recovery programs? If some day I do have problems, I wonder if there's a tool that would help me. Back in the old days we used to use Norton Disk Doctor and TechToolPro. I think those programs have been updated and still exist today... but Mac OS X is a way different beast from Mac OS 8 and 9. Like comparing a lawn mower to a Hummer.

 

[Philippine Mango]

Originally posted by: hopejr

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Still, icons that link to programs are scattered over even the best organized mac desktop. The OS 9 menu is just not good enough for me because it's only of recently used applications..

I think you're confusing versions . Back when there was no dock (OS 9 and below), people used to use the desktop as a place to store aliases (shortcuts) to programs. Now, with the dock, that is no longer necessary. Most OS X desktops that I've seen (other than ones on computers in public places) have only the hdd and other mounted drive icons, and maybe a couple of folders (usually not). The recently used apps thing is only really in OS X (it was in OS 9 and below, but those weren't the only shortcuts in the apple menu, as you could add more that were permanent, even a "Programs" menu if you wanted, to make it look more like windows).
To fix the Safari cluttering the desktop problem, I've made a "Downloads" folder on my desktop where everything is put automatically

BTW, here's my desktop.

I also heard though the OS X "dock" was deemed not for practical use even by it's creator!

 

[halfadder]

Originally posted by: Philippine MangoI also heard though the OS X "dock" was deemed not for practical use even by it's creator!

Are you referring to Jeff Raskin's critique of Mac OS X? He came up with the original idea for "Macintosh" in 1978, but his vision was a next-generation Apple II, with no GUI, no graphics, and a lame CPU. Steve Jobs eventually kicked him off the Macintosh team. The product that they released in 1984 was actually designed by a small group of 6 or 7 software and hardware geniuses. You can read all about it in the excellent $25 book, Revolution in the Valley (search amazon.com). Or you can read most of it online in blog format at http://www.folklore.org.

If you look at any of Jeff Raskin's current projects and GUI prototypes, you'll notice that they're still mostly text based. Nothing he's designed looks any newer than about 1979/1980. A better person to listen to would be Andy Hertzfeld or Bill Atkinson, the two that designed most of the original Macintosh GUI. (Andy went on to create GUIs for PDAs and for Linux in the 1990s).

The dock is handy, but it's half-baked. I would have preferred the "shelf" that was originally planned for OPENSTEP 4.0. The dock and task bar are two technologies I wish I could merge. I love the high resolution thumbnails and docklette mini-applications, but the windows task bar is slightly more useful overall. It's a case where I wish Microsoft would copy a little more from Apple... and I wish Apple would copy a little more from Microsoft!

 

[imported_kwshaw1]

Okay, so maybe I laid it on a bit thick at first about PCs versus Macs for purposes of video editing. As far as whether my posts are inconsistent, that's the difference between which platform I think is better versus whether both platforms are adequate for most video-related tasks. All things considered, PCs have the advantage in terms of variety, value and performance, but Macs obviously have some good video production tools. Macs are lagging badly in terms of laptop performance and support for the HDV format, but Mac users are making do with what's available in that regard.

On the performance issue in particular, I'd say it's clear that PCs have an advantage over Macs for most video-related tasks. I base this primarily on independent performance comparisons plus first-hand reports from people I know who have used the latest Macs. The one example presented here of a single older Mac beating a single older PC for purposes of running some Photoshop tests tells us absolutely nothing about which platform is faster for doing video work. On the other hand, I don't question that the current G5 desktop Macs are plenty fast enough for most people, and arguably faster than many mid-priced PCs. But at the top of the performance curve it's the latest PCs which consistently come out on top in most side-by-side comparisons, at least those done by anyone other than Apple. And for about $1200 I can upgrade almost any PC to rival a $2500 G5 in terms of performance, and then I can do that again when the next generation of computer hardware comes along. Certainly the G5s are nice computers if you can afford them, and they're a big improvement over previous generations of Macs--but they're simply not faster than the fastest PCs for purposes which concern us here.

So as many of us have said repeatedly in this discussion, it wouldn't make sense to abandon a perfectly funtional PC editing setup just to see if Macs are "better" for video editing. In the end the most important thing for doing video work is good source footage and creative production talent, and both platforms can deliver good results given these inputs.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

FCP supports HDV with a third party program. You use Lumiere, as addragyn and hopejr pointed out. The example of using photoshop was to show AltiVec does something. Its their for a purpose. FCP uses AltiVec heavily, meaning these video editing tasks will fast. Sure, maybe the new PC's are faster than todays Macs, we dont know, but trying to make the Mac look bad by saying it doesnt support HDV or trying to make it sound slow is going too far.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: halfadder
One nice thing about Mac OS 9 and earlier was that the OS and its System Folder were insanely simple. Every file had a long descriptive name and a meaninful icon. When in doubt, the Extensions Manager control panel gave more info and could even group together related files. It only took about 200 files to make Mac OS 8.... Mac OS 9 wasn't much worse, although I didn't spend much time with it.

Mac OS X is a big beast monster though. It's about 10x more complex than NeXTSTEP and at least twice as complex as a normal FreeBSD installation. No wonder the "Mac OS X Bible" type books are 1400 pages! Well, my PowerBook came with 10.3.1 preinstalled. I have used Software Update over the past 12 months and I'm now running 10.3.7 plus many newer versions of the bundled applications all updated semi-automatically. It still works and I reboot maybe once a month (I normally put my PowerBook to "sleep"). I keep backing up my data onto my usb flash drive though, as I'm still not that trusting. I was able to resurrect ailing Mac OS 8 systems.... but I don't think I would have a chance if Mac OS X decided to give out on me!

Have any of you Mac guys worked with any of the Mac OS X repair and recovery programs? If some day I do have problems, I wonder if there's a tool that would help me. Back in the old days we used to use Norton Disk Doctor and TechToolPro. I think those programs have been updated and still exist today... but Mac OS X is a way different beast from Mac OS 8 and 9. Like comparing a lawn mower to a Hummer.

halfadder, I strongly recommend DiskWarrior and TechTool Pro. I only use them when I need to, but they surely help out a lot! I was having a problem with iTunes, where I couldnt burn a cd without getting the bufferunderrun protection error. It was wasting my cds. So I ran diskwarrior, and Techtool Pro, and now I burn my cd's with no problem!

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: hopejr

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Still, icons that link to programs are scattered over even the best organized mac desktop. The OS 9 menu is just not good enough for me because it's only of recently used applications..

I think you're confusing versions . Back when there was no dock (OS 9 and below), people used to use the desktop as a place to store aliases (shortcuts) to programs. Now, with the dock, that is no longer necessary. Most OS X desktops that I've seen (other than ones on computers in public places) have only the hdd and other mounted drive icons, and maybe a couple of folders (usually not). The recently used apps thing is only really in OS X (it was in OS 9 and below, but those weren't the only shortcuts in the apple menu, as you could add more that were permanent, even a "Programs" menu if you wanted, to make it look more like windows).
To fix the Safari cluttering the desktop problem, I've made a "Downloads" folder on my desktop where everything is put automatically

BTW, here's my desktop.

Just noticed your post. I think that is a very good idea. I think I should make one of those, to keep my desktop clean. Nice desktop! You have garageband! You are so lucky. My eMac came with iLife 03 since my eMac is a 2003 model, so no garageband.

 

[imported_kwshaw1]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
FCP supports HDV with a third party program. You use Lumiere, as addragyn and hopejr pointed out. The example of using photoshop was to show AltiVec does something. Its their for a purpose. FCP uses AltiVec heavily, meaning these video editing tasks will fast. Sure, maybe the new PC's are faster than todays Macs, we dont know, but trying to make the Mac look bad by saying it doesnt support HDV or trying to make it sound slow is going too far.

If you actually read about how Lumiere HD works, or any other Mac-based HDV solution, and compare that to HDV options for PCs, it's clear that the PC products are more advanced with significantly better workflow. At best you might get comparable workflow on Macs using the $5000 Heuris encoder or uncompressed HD capture and editing, but those are impractical options for most people. The most commonly used solution for HDV on Macs is rather cumbersome, as described here:
http://www.lumierehd.com/workflow.php. Ask anyone who's doing HDV on Macs whether their workflow is comparable to DV editing--it's not.

And now for the PC options:

Edius NX: http://www.canopus.com/us/prod.../pa_EDIUSNX_Pro_01.asp
Real-time capture to either of two editing codecs, real-time editing with mixed format support on one timeline, and true real-time HD output monitoring. By far the most complete out-of-the-box HDV solution on either platform. Also has optional DVCProHD support.

Premiere Pro with Aspect HD: http://www.cineform.com/products/AspectHDPPro.htm
"My jaw was agape as I created a 3D page curl transition between two clips where I had slowed down both clips to 33%, added color correction to one clip, and then added two text keys on top of that with fades on either side. All this played back without dropping any frames -- on a notebook. "

Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6: http://www.pinnaclesys.com/Pro...D=2452&Langue_ID=7
"Fully integrated FireWire (IEEE1394) based HDV capture with native real-time HDV editing, effects and compositing."

Sony Vegas with Connect HD: http://www.cineform.com/products/ConnectHD.htm
"Connect HD offers an online Digital Intermediate workflow, which means you never have to work with proxy files, and you never have to conform a project at completion - you're always working with full-resolution source material."

Ulead Media Studio Pro with HD Plugin: http://www.ulead.com/msp/plugin.htm
"Enjoy all the features of MediaStudio Pro 7, editing native 1080i or 720p HD or SD MPEG-2, converted losslessly to Program Stream and back to Transport Stream. This complete solution includes device control and batch capture, professional multi-track editing, and output to tape, DVD or back to the HDV camcorder. "

Some of these companies are still working out a few kinks in their products, but at least they have shipping products to work out the kinks. There is simply nothing comparable to any of these for the Mac platform.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy

Originally posted by: hopejr

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Still, icons that link to programs are scattered over even the best organized mac desktop. The OS 9 menu is just not good enough for me because it's only of recently used applications..

I think you're confusing versions . Back when there was no dock (OS 9 and below), people used to use the desktop as a place to store aliases (shortcuts) to programs. Now, with the dock, that is no longer necessary. Most OS X desktops that I've seen (other than ones on computers in public places) have only the hdd and other mounted drive icons, and maybe a couple of folders (usually not). The recently used apps thing is only really in OS X (it was in OS 9 and below, but those weren't the only shortcuts in the apple menu, as you could add more that were permanent, even a "Programs" menu if you wanted, to make it look more like windows).
To fix the Safari cluttering the desktop problem, I've made a "Downloads" folder on my desktop where everything is put automatically

BTW, here's my desktop.

Just noticed your post. I think that is a very good idea. I think I should make one of those, to keep my desktop clean. Nice desktop! You have garageband! You are so lucky. My eMac came with iLife 03 since my eMac is a 2003 model, so no garageband.

I can make my desktop look identical. The ability to customize my desktop is limited only by my imagination, which is pretty neat for me. If there's an easier way to access my files, I can set it up myself.

 

[imported_kwshaw1]

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
The example of using photoshop was to show AltiVec does something. Its their for a purpose. FCP uses AltiVec heavily, meaning these video editing tasks will fast. Sure, maybe the new PC's are faster than todays Macs, we dont know, ...

I don't doubt that recent Mac processors have a good technical design (e.g. Altivec). And maybe for desktop computers it's ultimately a draw in terms of general video editing performance, but I've seen several side-by-side comparisons and first-hand reports giving PCs the advantage here. For laptop computers, there is simply no way that even the fastest G4 laptop can come close to the performance of high-end PC laptops, almost all of which are cheaper with a greater variety of features (including higher resolution screens). It would be folly to claim otherwise, and the best thing you can say about Mac laptops is they apparently have good battery life. If all you do is simple DV editing and battery life is important to you, then maybe a Mac laptop makes some sense. If you want a laptop which can serve as a complete replacement for a desktop editing system, then PCs easily have the advantage in this area.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: kwshaw1

Originally posted by: Thin Lizzy
The example of using photoshop was to show AltiVec does something. Its their for a purpose. FCP uses AltiVec heavily, meaning these video editing tasks will fast. Sure, maybe the new PC's are faster than todays Macs, we dont know, ...

I don't doubt that recent Mac processors have a good technical design (e.g. Altivec). And maybe for desktop computers it's ultimately a draw in terms of general video editing performance, but I've seen several side-by-side comparisons and first-hand reports giving PCs the advantage here. For laptop computers, there is simply no way that even the fastest G4 laptop can come close to the performance of high-end PC laptops, almost all of which are cheaper with a greater variety of features (including higher resolution screens). It would be folly to claim otherwise, and the best thing you can say about Mac laptops is they apparently have good battery life. If all you do is simple DV editing and battery life is important to you, then maybe a Mac laptop makes some sense. If you want a laptop which can serve as a complete replacement for a desktop editing system, then PCs easily have the advantage in this area.

The reason you think the fastest G4 wont come close to high end PC's is because the PC says it has a higher clock speed. That is all you are looking at, clock speed, not the architecture of the processor. If this isnt the case, you wouldnt be saying the fastest G4 wont outperform higher end PC's. You dont have any evidence to prove that statement. You never put the fastest G4 against a higher end PC, and therefore, your argument is not valid. You assume a higher end PC is faster just because it says it has more GHz/MHz. You have probably never heard of the megahertz myth.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

If you actually read about how Lumiere HD works, or any other Mac-based HDV solution, and compare that to HDV options for PCs, it's clear that the PC products are more advanced with significantly better workflow. At best you might get comparable workflow on Macs using the $5000 Heuris encoder or uncompressed HD capture and editing, but those are impractical options for most people. The most commonly used solution for HDV on Macs is rather cumbersome, as described here:
http://www.lumierehd.com/workflow.php. Ask anyone who's doing HDV on Macs whether their workflow is comparable to DV editing--it's not.

And how do you know its not? What evidence do you have that Macs are rather "cumbersome" for HDV other than your opinion? And like I said. You can edit HDV on FCP, as you were spreading false information by saying it cant.

 

[Philippine Mango]

Your doing it agian, ease up on them you don't want to start another argument PCS VS Macs do you?

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Lol, I know. But he keeps continuing it. I thought it stopped. He needs to stop spreading his opinions trying to make the Mac look bad. As you can see, I am not attacking the PC at all. When he says something that he cannot prove, or just some opinionated comment, and tries to use them as an argument, I will end up jumping in here. And he needs to know he should stop spreading nonsense.