We have a winner.
The oil. The precious oil. Trillions-of-dollars worth of beautiful oil... and it's all ours.
geogre w bsh; the greatest criminal and mass-murderer of the 21st century.:thumbsup:
We have a winner.
The oil. The precious oil. Trillions-of-dollars worth of beautiful oil... and it's all ours.
geogre w bsh; the greatest criminal and mass-murderer of the 21st century.:thumbsup:
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
The Democrats were elected to stop the war, and they tried with the deadline bill, which was blocked by Bush, and the Republicans who refused to override his veto. Bush and the obstructionist right will answer for their obstruction of the people's will in 2008. They'd have to be complete idiots to think they will get elected in 2008 because Americans are pissed that we are still in Iraq, yet it seems exactly what they are thinking.
Remarkable that you already posted the answer, yet continue to beat a dead horse. It's in your original linked piece-
Duh! A great deal of the dissatisfaction with congress stems from repub obstructionism rather than with the agenda of the Democrats
And this truly silly question-
Sentiment against the occupation grows daily, a simple fact that you choose to ignore. The only way the antiwar group can possibly hurt Dems is for that to not be true...
If the "surge" hasn't yeilded rather dramatic results six months from today, and there's no indication that it will, then that trickle of sentiment will turn into a torrent...
People who oppose the ocupation won't suddenly vote for prowar candidates because the antiwar candidates haven't done enough to suit them...
the left wing is idealistic and naive.
bush is going to veto any anti-war bill that comes through congress, and withdrawing funding is a fool's option that, while appeasing their base, would destroy any moderate or bipartisan support they have. it's nice to see the dems not going down the partisanship-at-any-cost road like the republicans did... even if they did, there's really no guarantee that Bush would withdraw the troops even with no funding.
where does pelosi fit into this, though? it's not the house that's holding things up, it's the senate and the fact that the democrats don't have a veto-proof majority. if someone really cared about ending the war, they should channel their energies into getting more democratic senators and representatives elected and putting a democratic president in the white house. nothing's going to happen while the Bush administration remains in power, with their run out the clock mindset.
bush is going to veto any anti-war bill that comes through congress, and withdrawing funding is a fool's option that, while appeasing their base, would destroy any moderate or bipartisan support they have. it's nice to see the dems not going down the partisanship-at-any-cost road like the republicans did... even if they did, there's really no guarantee that Bush would withdraw the troops even with no funding.
where does pelosi fit into this, though? it's not the house that's holding things up, it's the senate and the fact that the democrats don't have a veto-proof majority. if someone really cared about ending the war, they should channel their energies into getting more democratic senators and representatives elected and putting a democratic president in the white house. nothing's going to happen while the Bush administration remains in power, with their run out the clock mindset.
ericlp
Diamond Member
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,137
- 225
- 106
Is it too hard for repubs or demo's to see that they are pretty much both of the same? I mean they are both feeding off of greed and profit. Of course "NOTHING" will be done. They pretty much do the same. They are the same. I say down with the two party system. We need a 3rd party to make some changes, but sadly there will still be a left over two party system in place so ... I don't know.
But I do know regardless of who gets in... Dem or Rep... Nothing is really going to change. Maybe more money will go to this or that but politics as usual will remain. Fantasy that there is a difference between the two is just that. A fantasy ...
All of your post is Captain Obvious and spot on except for your first line.
Of course since you despise reason and the U.S. you would want your Republican heroes to win back what they lost last November so you can continue to destroy the U.S.
The U.S. is just one giant Enron now, being short sold to fill the pockets of a select few.
So sad.
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
"The reality is that the Democrats ran on the platform that they would get us out of this mess, they are not. Its nice to see that some of you are so blinded by your partisanship that you will blindly follow the Dems in whatever they do. "
:laugh: A 5 yr old child eating lead paint, knew that promise was a lie. There's is no way out. None. It willl end at 10,000 dead Americans, 1 million dead Iraqis, and 3 trillion dollars burnt.
I love this war, I really do. This war is the highlight of my life. Go bush go!!!:beer:
yeah, but that 5 yr old is way smarter than the average "extreme xxxxx-wing" voter... and those extreme xxxx-wing voters are the ones who drive the primaries.
The bottom line is the democrats ran on a platform to change direction in Iraq. But of course when presented with the real outcome of such a decision appeased to more common sense measures like pissing and moaning while passing the spending bills.
It is politics as usual.
It is politics as usual.
nah, their base will be so p****** off as to note vote.
The Democrats will have a lot of explaining to do if we are still there by the time elections rolled around. This would no different a result than if the Republicans got in under a lower taxes campaign and then jacked them or sat on their butts.
frankly the democrats are doing sh*t to fix anything and thats the problem.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
I think there are a number of reasons, depending upon your POV.
If you're an ultra left "pull out immediatley damn the consequences", you're angry cuz they're not doing enough.
I'm extremely unhappy about the proposed immigration bill, as are many others whether left or right.
Nonstop partisan bickering has only increased, no Bi-partisanship as promissed. Wasting time on this crap while no health Care improvement in sight etc.
The whole "clean up Washington" thingy appeared to be nothing but a campaign slogan. So far, looks like "Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss" etc.
GAS PRICES, GAS PRICES New Energy Policy? Really? Where is it? If it's biofuel, bah. My wife and others see raising food prices NOW due to this. No benefits yet. Increasing mileage on cars in how many years? No beny yet etc. Upfront cost, no immediate benefit != happy campers.
General high level of F.U.D. dished out nonstop by the media, whether it's GW, or hurricanes etc.
Fern
Originally posted by: tomywishbone
Q: "Are Democrats not doing enough to end our involvement."
A: Enough?
bushler and his gang, are laughing harder than ever at all those dead people.
They passed a more aggressive bill on Iraq. Bush vetoed it.
That's not "nothing". They don't have the votes to get some things passed, even if every democrat agreed, because the republicans are voting against them.
Considering the political price with the right's propaganda about 'cut and run' and 'surrender schedule', they're doing a lot more than the republicans did - and it has a shorter time frame of a major change likely later this year, in time for the republicans' presidential campaigning, when republicans start to oppose Bush, as they give Bush the time they can. Talk about playing politics.
palehorse74 said:
You've got to be kidding me, being in Iraq "for many years" - "will sure be fun to watch".
Sorry, "nothing" about that statement is "fun to watch". It sure hasn't been "fun to watch" the debacle that this republican administration has fostered these last 6 years of its leadership.
The spectacle of fighting against the entire world by insisting that we had to invade in order to eliminate weapons that did not exist is one of the most devestating humiliations - it's hard to find anything comparable. And the destruction of our credibility on every level from Iraq - moral credibility, human rights, even our military deterrent credibility.
So long as they can keep the political discourse chugging along on the level of sequential thought, one disconnected story after another, each organized around "conceptual relations that 'are synthetic without being analytic,'" relations that "join events together" in a union, not subject to any conceptual dissection.
The thieves have broken down the back door, blown open the safe, and are ransacking the place with very little resistance.
In fact, I stopped taking our administration seriously when Dubya landed on the air craft carrier in his little fighter pilot costume.
Yes, all this so called "republican" leadership and "good decisions" has been anything but "fun to watch"
You've got to be kidding me, being in Iraq "for many years" - "will sure be fun to watch".
Sorry, "nothing" about that statement is "fun to watch". It sure hasn't been "fun to watch" the debacle that this republican administration has fostered these last 6 years of its leadership.
The spectacle of fighting against the entire world by insisting that we had to invade in order to eliminate weapons that did not exist is one of the most devestating humiliations - it's hard to find anything comparable. And the destruction of our credibility on every level from Iraq - moral credibility, human rights, even our military deterrent credibility.
So long as they can keep the political discourse chugging along on the level of sequential thought, one disconnected story after another, each organized around "conceptual relations that 'are synthetic without being analytic,'" relations that "join events together" in a union, not subject to any conceptual dissection.
The thieves have broken down the back door, blown open the safe, and are ransacking the place with very little resistance.
In fact, I stopped taking our administration seriously when Dubya landed on the air craft carrier in his little fighter pilot costume.
Yes, all this so called "republican" leadership and "good decisions" has been anything but "fun to watch"
ProfJohn said:
I guess since I am against this policy debacle that is Iraq, and being that I am a registered Republican, and have been for 20 years. Does that make me a "lefty" republican?
Your continued "projection" and "labeling" is laughable..
Much is written about the faux-masculinity of the GOP candidates and the portrayal of Dems. as weak. Obviously the wingosphere creates much of this. But it is all not propaganda.
The Dems. often do not stand up for what they believe in, and they resort to doubletalk and backpedaling at the first sign of a confrontation. Worse, when they do try to stand up for themselves, they do it in a dumb-ass way (we?ve lost the war we've supported all along!). The Dems. believe that in order to look tough, they simply need to support the war and the soldiers.
What they do not seem to realize, is that by supporting the war to the extent they have, they?ve only reinforced their portrayal as weak, they cowered to the GOP and Bush, those more aggressive and sure of themselves, because it would take courage and strength to speak out. What I feel most Americans want to see is not blind support for a lost war, but someone who is willing to stand up for what they believe in, be smart about what they say in the midst of a very difficult and dangerous situation, and have the courage to stick to it.
This is the real fight, and the Democrats lose this one every time, and it?s their own damn fault.
We can talk about how outrageous the whole wimpy-Dem meme is, but Dem leadership and "real" republicans will continue to be rolled over until the day they finally fight for what they believe in.
As for Pelosi, she is a joke. Murtha was the correct choice for the job and the Dems. again made the wrong choice and backed off.
These "new" GOP warriors have created their own private version of reality, and between radio and TV their adherents can tune in each day to get what they believe to be the genuine article.
It's absolutely incredible how totally they convince themselves that their way of seeing things is the one that is accepted by the vast majority of Americans. If you get your news from rightwing radio and television, you live in a bubble that is self-referential and complete.
When "projectors" like ProfJohn and others show up here to give their take on the world, they're simply regurgitating what they've heard. That they've been sold a total forgery nevers occurs to them. That's why they're so loyal.
I don't have to have tuned in to Wingosphere World this week to know that Pelosi & Reid is the story of the week, and that they have done something horrible and the whole world is talking about it and the only serious question is about precisely how universally they need to be condemned.
Tony Snow is no different when he regurgitates what he's absorbed from the Echo Chamber.
Meanwhile, back at The World.
The real story-of-the-week is the 4th Circuit's Al-Marri decision. But you heard the wind whistling through the eaves if you strained to hear something about this critical story in the news.
It's not only the RW Echo Chamber that ignored this one, the average American has no idea we are living in a country where the question of whether the president has the power to lock citizens up without charges indefinitely is actually open to debate.
The MSM's abdication of it's responsibility to provide the public with (at least a viable attempt at) genuine reality has opened the door to FOXNews' private version.
There is something truly amazingly wrong going on here.
I guess since I am against this policy debacle that is Iraq, and being that I am a registered Republican, and have been for 20 years. Does that make me a "lefty" republican?
Your continued "projection" and "labeling" is laughable..
Much is written about the faux-masculinity of the GOP candidates and the portrayal of Dems. as weak. Obviously the wingosphere creates much of this. But it is all not propaganda.
The Dems. often do not stand up for what they believe in, and they resort to doubletalk and backpedaling at the first sign of a confrontation. Worse, when they do try to stand up for themselves, they do it in a dumb-ass way (we?ve lost the war we've supported all along!). The Dems. believe that in order to look tough, they simply need to support the war and the soldiers.
What they do not seem to realize, is that by supporting the war to the extent they have, they?ve only reinforced their portrayal as weak, they cowered to the GOP and Bush, those more aggressive and sure of themselves, because it would take courage and strength to speak out. What I feel most Americans want to see is not blind support for a lost war, but someone who is willing to stand up for what they believe in, be smart about what they say in the midst of a very difficult and dangerous situation, and have the courage to stick to it.
This is the real fight, and the Democrats lose this one every time, and it?s their own damn fault.
We can talk about how outrageous the whole wimpy-Dem meme is, but Dem leadership and "real" republicans will continue to be rolled over until the day they finally fight for what they believe in.
As for Pelosi, she is a joke. Murtha was the correct choice for the job and the Dems. again made the wrong choice and backed off.
These "new" GOP warriors have created their own private version of reality, and between radio and TV their adherents can tune in each day to get what they believe to be the genuine article.
It's absolutely incredible how totally they convince themselves that their way of seeing things is the one that is accepted by the vast majority of Americans. If you get your news from rightwing radio and television, you live in a bubble that is self-referential and complete.
When "projectors" like ProfJohn and others show up here to give their take on the world, they're simply regurgitating what they've heard. That they've been sold a total forgery nevers occurs to them. That's why they're so loyal.
I don't have to have tuned in to Wingosphere World this week to know that Pelosi & Reid is the story of the week, and that they have done something horrible and the whole world is talking about it and the only serious question is about precisely how universally they need to be condemned.
Tony Snow is no different when he regurgitates what he's absorbed from the Echo Chamber.
Meanwhile, back at The World.
The real story-of-the-week is the 4th Circuit's Al-Marri decision. But you heard the wind whistling through the eaves if you strained to hear something about this critical story in the news.
It's not only the RW Echo Chamber that ignored this one, the average American has no idea we are living in a country where the question of whether the president has the power to lock citizens up without charges indefinitely is actually open to debate.
The MSM's abdication of it's responsibility to provide the public with (at least a viable attempt at) genuine reality has opened the door to FOXNews' private version.
There is something truly amazingly wrong going on here.
Wow, it's so refreshing to see a republican who is not indoctrinated from what you call the 'wingosphere'.
Whatever we agree or disagree on, it'd be good to discuss the issue with someone who is discussing the issue, for a change.
While we can find a lot of important issues to disagree on if you are a republican, it's interesting how a radical like Bush can unite people like us.
I think you're right on target in this post.
You appear to be what I'd call a 'real' republican; the people I think we need to both be worried about are the radicals who have gained control of your party.
It's why other 'real' republicans like Kevin Phillips left the party - their only choice was that, and to try to fight for getting the party back, or to help elect evil.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Not sure I'm following you regarding (a compaint about?) the Al-Marri decision.
You seem to imply it has something to do with citizens, but the scope appears to be limited to alwfully admited aliens (noncitizens). I admit I lack the time to read fully, yet it appears to me to primarily turn on the definition of an "enemy combatant".
(Also, apparently contrary to your above assertion, the court restates the President's/military's lack of authority to seize/hold and/or detain a citizen indefinately.)
Please explain,
TIA
Fern
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
The stement I bolded is important. Sure, no one specifically said "We WILL get us out of Iraq". Sure, no one specifically said "If you elect me I will make sure we get out of Iraq.
But then again, Bush never specifically said "Saddam is to blame for 9/11" either.
Implications are a bitch when they arent in your favor eh?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
The people, myself included, voted for one thing in particular last fall, and we still don't have it, nor anything even close to it. There's no spin to that, just the usual partisan apologists making their appearances in this thread. Anyone, right left or moderate, who is not thoroughly disgusted and outraged by the actions of both major parties when it comes to the issue of Iraq... is simply not paying attention. /thread
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
If it makes anyone happy---we will likely soon have a democratic congress standing up to GWB&co.---sadly such conditions are not conducive for making sound national
decisions---but unlike the Gingrich led congressional revolt of a decade ago---I think congressional power is more likely to prevail this time. If I am right its hardly good news for GWB&co. fans, and as a patriotic American I am willing to settle for the GWB agenda being slowly stopped rather than demand immediate change with decisions made in haste
simply because they can be forced through as a test of political clout.
As I have said before, a strong argument can be made that GWB and a small group of zealots have hijacked the entire GOP. And I think the GOP is slowly coming to that same conclusion. And by September the congress will be ready to address contentious issues in a more rational manner as GWB&co slowly fades as a force. What this country now needs is bi-partisanship and not internecine war fare on phony issues.
decisions---but unlike the Gingrich led congressional revolt of a decade ago---I think congressional power is more likely to prevail this time. If I am right its hardly good news for GWB&co. fans, and as a patriotic American I am willing to settle for the GWB agenda being slowly stopped rather than demand immediate change with decisions made in haste
simply because they can be forced through as a test of political clout.
As I have said before, a strong argument can be made that GWB and a small group of zealots have hijacked the entire GOP. And I think the GOP is slowly coming to that same conclusion. And by September the congress will be ready to address contentious issues in a more rational manner as GWB&co slowly fades as a force. What this country now needs is bi-partisanship and not internecine war fare on phony issues.
umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
- 1,126
- 126
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