Are all people with degrees closed minded?

[yhelothar]

Thomas Edison never got a degree either, or even finished gradeschool.
Albert Einstein failed school and could only get into a no name college.
Stanley Kubrick never finished school either.

This didn't happen by luck. School is generally a conformist institution that strips people of their individuality. While college isn't as bad.. it's still more or less doing things that people generally aren't interested. It's why studying and homework have such negative connotation to them. Geniuses tend to focus on things that they're passionate about. When was the last time you've seen a genius passionate about memorizing every single kindom, phylum, class, and order for their bio class? It's no wonder geniuses do not succeed in school.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Not all of them, but the people who have to ask such a question certainly are.

That made no sense at all. That wasn't in any way clever or even offend the OP.

Clearly, because there exists two people who look down on those without degrees, all people with degrees are close minded :disgust: and that's not the least bit closed minded. Thanks for showing it was clever enough for you not to notice its point.

You seem simple minded, as if you're 19. I guess when people are that age, the whole Pee Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I?" comeback seems quite clever.

 

[conehead433]

Maybe you should use different criteria for success. How about the number of filthy rich people who never graduated from HS or college. Or how about the number of people who are happy and could give a GD about college.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

But with a liberal arts degree, you'll have a hard time distinguishing yourself from the average hippy working at Starbucks.

lol

I haven't gone to college, and won't, for one simple reason: generic english, math, history etc courses. I think filler courses such as this are BS, and shouldn't be required.

 

[veggz]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

But with a liberal arts degree, you'll have a hard time distinguishing yourself from the average hippy working at Starbucks.

lol

I haven't gone to college, and won't, for one simple reason: generic english, math, history etc courses. I think filler courses such as this are BS, and shouldn't be required.

Generic survey classes are reserved for high school classrooms. College courses in these areas are fun and passionate since you are in a classroom with intelligent students who are all interested in the subject material. If you think that they are BS, there are also many colleges that do not require any courses whatsoever, notably Brown University. Looks like you should have done a little more research before deciding not to attend college.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

Huh? Can you elaborate on this "work method" please?

 

[veggz]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

Huh? Can you elaborate on this "work method" please?

Work ethic, maybe?

 

[0roo0roo]

depends. some people grow up with an elitist attitude. their friends all are in the battle to get into the best schools and the parents basically push them very hard. its esp with asian parents. your childs identity is basically linked ot the school they got into or are aiming for, and this is what the parents talk about during get togethers and such, quite annoying. comparing children, garranteed conversation topic, first thing the parents ask you when they talk to you etc

 

[HamSupLo]

it's not that people with degrees are close minded, it's because the OP just happened to meet people who are douche bags.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

Huh? Can you elaborate on this "work method" please?

For instance, in college you learn how to approach a problem correctly, how to organize, and if you're in a skilled field how to perform the task in the standard way.

If you do not have this experience under your belt, you'll go about these tasks in your own random ways that most likely won't be compatible with the way everyone else is working. Some people invent ways of doing things that are superior, but these are few and far between.

 

[DaShen]

Higher education is defintely a way to gauge work ethic and intelligence, but it isn't the only way to "judge" someone when it comes to intelligence.

 

[DurocShark]

heehee

I don't even have a HS diploma, yet I make decent $$, have an outstanding work ethic, and was one of the few that survived our layoffs because they were afraid to lose me?

Go me!



(Note that I'm *not* recommending this as a career path. I'm just lucky and know it.)

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

Huh? Can you elaborate on this "work method" please?

For instance, in college you learn how to approach a problem correctly, how to organize, and if you're in a skilled field how to perform the task in the standard way.

IMO, that's entirely false.

1) There is never any single way to approach a problem. By suggesting this you're supporting the suggestion from others that college limits creativity. College isn't about creating a bunch of problem-solving automaton.

2) There aren't many fields that have tasks you can perform in a "standard way." Industry is often far, far different from academia, and most of what you learn isn't directly practical. What you should have learned is a foundation of principles and basic understanding that you can use as a platform for creativity.

If you do not have this experience under your belt, you'll go about these tasks in your own random ways that most likely won't be compatible with the way everyone else is working. Some people invent ways of doing things that are superior, but these are few and far between.

I'm assuming you're either still in high school or still in college, yes? You sound heavily coached, and you again seem to espouse this notion of working drones as though they simply apply a script to their daily working lives that was regurgitated by one of their professors. Even manufacturing environments are more high-novelty than you seem to be suggesting.

In addition, you're supporting some of the opinions in this thread that academia limits creativity. Your "Some people invent ways of doing things that are superior" suggests that the only option is to think in the box, but that level of thinking won't get you very far.

Be a little more creative and apply principles, not rules.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: DaShen
Higher education is defintely a way to gauge work ethic and intelligence, but it isn't the only way to "judge" someone when it comes to intelligence.

What if that person cheated through college?

IMO, the only way to gauge work ethic is to evaluate their work ethic. If there's one thing I've learned in my career it's to never trust indications of anything; rather, observation is what truly matters. I've personally been in far, far too many positions where someone was fantastic on paper and yet inept in practice.

In short: Evaluate the person, not superficial indicators.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Staples
I met some people yesterday. We were at some restaurant. If you met me in person, I'd appear no different than any other smart professional person. Anyway, the conversation came to the topic of, what is your degree in? I told them I don't have one. I stopped going to college after a few years. Now the tone has change and I am somehow lesser and even dumber than them because they have degrees and I don't.

Some guy told me he worked with people who have never gone to college and that you can tell who went and who did because there was a big gap in the intellegence and work ethics. I told him that idiots are idiots, it isn't because they skipped college. They just are not interested in learning anything and that is why they are dumb. He still believed that college is the only way to get "smart" and if you have not gone, then you must be a dumb ass.

People that get degrees have a certain work method that is generally sought after and is difficult to learn. In a way, your friend is right, but you can't blanket statement everyone like that because everyone is different.

Huh? Can you elaborate on this "work method" please?

For instance, in college you learn how to approach a problem correctly, how to organize, and if you're in a skilled field how to perform the task in the standard way.

IMO, that's entirely false.

1) There is never any single way to approach a problem. By suggesting this you're supporting the suggestion from others that college limits creativity. College isn't about creating a bunch of problem-solving automaton.

2) There aren't many fields that have tasks you can perform in a "standard way." Industry is often far, far different from academia, and most of what you learn isn't directly practical. What you should have learned is a foundation of principles and basic understanding that you can use as a platform for creativity.

If you do not have this experience under your belt, you'll go about these tasks in your own random ways that most likely won't be compatible with the way everyone else is working. Some people invent ways of doing things that are superior, but these are few and far between.

I'm assuming you're either still in high school or still in college, yes? You sound heavily coached, and you again seem to espouse this notion of working drones as though they simply apply a script to their daily working lives that was regurgitated by one of their professors. Even manufacturing environments are more high-novelty than you seem to be suggesting.

In addition, you're supporting some of the opinions in this thread that academia limits creativity. Your "Some people invent ways of doing things that are superior" suggests that the only option is to think in the box, but that level of thinking won't get you very far.

Be a little more creative and apply principles, not rules.

I'm the manager of a national Internet service, and been here for 10 years (I'm in my mid 30's). I hire and fire people (well, recommended to HR to fire people) like this all the time, and I can see the difference between people with formal education and those without it. The work we do here involves a lot of verbal communication, process thinking, problem solving, and higher mathematics. About once every 6 months I'll get a new guy on my team who doesn't seem to perform tasks in a logical manner like you'd expect. 9 out of 10 times, these same people will have something like 1 year of college, or lied about their degree and got in over their heads.

On the other hand, I had one guy two years ago that was an absolute genus in problem solving, but had only 6 months of college under his belt. He was very articulate, and turned out to be one of my best guys. He's now a top player on our development team. I mention him because he was an exception out of the dozens of failed cases. Everyone thinks they're smarter than everyone else, but that's not reality most of the time.

 

[gotsmack]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

If you want closed minded, go talk to a department head with a Ph.D and call them by their first name and watch how fast you get a "It's Doctor" reply.

My department head at B school lets her grad students call her by her first name if they choose. The PhD students she advises definately call her by her first name. Most of the faculty is like that, I went to Rutgers.


Even if they did insist on being called Dr. they deserve it, it takes years of hard work and lost youth to get a PhD, even from a crap school.



also some of you guys are arguing that such and such didn't have a degree and he did fine. Yea, but that was 100 years ago when most people worked on farms. These days for every really successful person with no degree there are thousands of degreeless people with dead end jobs.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: gotsmack

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

If you want closed minded, go talk to a department head with a Ph.D and call them by their first name and watch how fast you get a "It's Doctor" reply.

My department head at B school lets her grad students call her by her first name if they choose. The PhD students she advises definately call her by her first name. Most of the faculty is like that, I went to Rutgers.


Even if they did insist on being called Dr. they deserve it, it takes years of hard work and lost youth to get a PhD, even from a crap school.



also some of you guys are arguing that such and such didn't have a degree and he did fine. Yea, but that was 100 years ago when most people worked on farms. These days for every really successful person with no degree there are thousands of degreeless people with dead end jobs.

Exactly my point.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: gotsmack

Even if they did insist on being called Dr. they deserve it, it takes years of hard work and lost youth to get a PhD, even from a crap school.

Nobody "deserves" anything. You have to earn everything, including respect from others. If others don't want to give you respect, it's probably because of something you didn't do to win them over.

Originally posted by: gotsmack
also some of you guys are arguing that such and such didn't have a degree and he did fine. Yea, but that was 100 years ago when most people worked on farms. These days for every really successful person with no degree there are thousands of degreeless people with dead end jobs.

So Bill Gates came from a time when most people worked on farms? Steve Jobs? Michael Dell?

Intelligence+hard work will get you far. Innovation is key, and that requires traveling down a road that hasn't been paved yet. Thinking inside of the box and being a drone will only allow you to reach a certain limit.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: doze

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: doze
College shows that you were able to complete a difficult voluntary task at a young age. A degree indicates self discipline and dedication.

Sorry but passing through college isn't difficult.

Maybe not difficult if your mommy and daddy pay all your bills and you don't like to party or have any fun.

For those who have to support themself by working while going to school full time, and going out to party several nights a week the difficult part is applying yourself to schoolwork. Completing a degree program from a university is an accomplishment.

And graduates make more money too

proof = http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

Sorry, but as I said, PASSING college is not hard. I see you are trying to egg me on, but considering my friends and I(and my future wife) didn't go to parties, etc, your attempts to attack me didn't mean much. Getting straight As may be difficult, but PASSING surely is not.

 

[Schadenfreude]

There are plenty of idiots both with and without a college degree. Apparently your coworkers are good examples.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: gotsmack

Even if they did insist on being called Dr. they deserve it, it takes years of hard work and lost youth to get a PhD, even from a crap school.

Nobody "deserves" anything. You have to earn everything, including respect from others. If others don't want to give you respect, it's probably because of something you didn't do to win them over.

Originally posted by: gotsmack
also some of you guys are arguing that such and such didn't have a degree and he did fine. Yea, but that was 100 years ago when most people worked on farms. These days for every really successful person with no degree there are thousands of degreeless people with dead end jobs.

So Bill Gates came from a time when most people worked on farms? Steve Jobs? Michael Dell?

Intelligence+hard work will get you far. Innovation is key, and that requires traveling down a road that hasn't been paved yet. Thinking inside of the box and being a drone will only allow you to reach a certain limit.

We're going back to the fact that "Everyone thinks they're smarter than everyone else, but in reality it's not true." Bill Gates is a rare exception. Hardly anyone thought like he did that the time. 99.999% of people do not have that kind of vision however, and must get an education in it's place.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I don't know. As someone in a relatively senior R&D position in a huge company, without a degree, I find that most of the time it's me looking down on those with the degrees. I mean, they had the trouble of going to school, spending all this money and time, and yet they are so incompetent. What gives?

Seriously though, I'm honestly impressed by people with degrees from good places as I know I'm just incapable of formal studying. It's a mental thing. It's not that I see studying as particularly difficult task in terms of intelligence, it's just that I traditionally appreciate anyone who does something I won't/can't do.

A degree by itself also doesn't have too much implication on the work made by the person. It can show some abilities, perhaps, but not always those are the RIGHT abilities. I mean, people often equate degrees with things like "intelligence", "problem solving abilities", "ability to learn". For me, they usually stand for things like "obediance", "stability", "normallity". The good behaving average, you know.
Also, 90% of the people I'm in touch with in day-to-day life, certainly in work (where it's nearly 100%) have degrees, and there are good people and complete morons just like in every other place in life.

On the other hand, I find myself evaluated very highly when I tell people that I don't have a degree, after they get to know me and my work.
It's a good feeling, to know you studied everything by yourself and that you're capable of anything. Knowing that you're different.
Without bragging, I know that my technical abilities are such that a company just can't afford to reject me because of having or not having a degree. It's always been so in interviews. It becomes a non-issue after the first 10 minutes.

But I know I'm the exception. For most people, degree is the right thing to do, unless you have such drive, skills and ambition that you feel you don't want to waste your time in obtaining a degree.
In two years - half the time of a degree - I managed to work in two companies, achieve the position I'm currently at, and almost complete the development of my own product/company. And I'm 22. So why bother?

 

[gotsmack]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: gotsmack

Even if they did insist on being called Dr. they deserve it, it takes years of hard work and lost youth to get a PhD, even from a crap school.

Nobody "deserves" anything. You have to earn everything, including respect from others. If others don't want to give you respect, it's probably because of something you didn't do to win them over.

Originally posted by: gotsmack
also some of you guys are arguing that such and such didn't have a degree and he did fine. Yea, but that was 100 years ago when most people worked on farms. These days for every really successful person with no degree there are thousands of degreeless people with dead end jobs.

So Bill Gates came from a time when most people worked on farms? Steve Jobs? Michael Dell?

Intelligence+hard work will get you far. Innovation is key, and that requires traveling down a road that hasn't been paved yet. Thinking inside of the box and being a drone will only allow you to reach a certain limit.

1. They deserve it because they earned it. Do you have any idea of how hard it is to be accepted into a PhD program and how hard it is to not be kicked out and then actually do a decent thesis.

There is a massive amount of reading and analysis. top 10th percentile GMAT/GRE scores. Say goodbye to any social life since you'll be reading 6 and a 1/2 days a week for the first 2 years and then working on papaers for the next 2+ years.

Eventually if your thesis defense comes out ok and you get hooded, you earned it. Paid in full with 4+ years of lost youth and bloodshot eyes because most nights you only sleep 5 hours and every nioght you tell yourself "I should have went into investment banking, it's the same amount of hours and work, but atleast I'd be making 6 figures."

so to put it simply, anyone with a PhD from an accredited program deserves to be called Dr. because a PhD is not something that is given out like candy.



2. Bill Gates decided not to go back to Harvard because he had a really great business opportunity, if it flopped he could have went back. For every person like him who did not finish school there are plenty opf other people who did not finish school and did poorly in the job market.

100 years ago agriculture was larger part of the economy and most people were not highly educated. Back then people who did not go to school either worked on a farm or a factory, unless your family was rich or owned some sort of business.

Bill gates did not live 100 years ago so don't get mixed up in what I am trying to explain, for that part i was referring to the examples of people such as Edison who was mentioned.

 

[Willoughbyva]

There are good and bad people in all walks of life. I don't think a degree would make someone "better" than anyone else.


Perry