Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[johnsonwax]

Well, Apple itself doesn't sell M1 or M2 anymore anyway. I wonder how much Apple is really re-supplying M1s to Wal-Mart, and how much is just old stock now, since they're actually 8/256 GB machines. The M2s and M3s got bumped up to 16 GB last year.

For Apple retail:

MacBook Air - M4 only
iMac - M4 only
Mac mini - Starts at M4
iPad - A16 only
iPad Air - M3 only
iPad Pro - M4 only

The only one with an M2 in the name isn't a base M2. It's the M2 Ultra in the Mac Pro (which is sad). I did see a blowout sale in 2025 for the M2 MacBook Air 16/256 GB at CA$899 (US$661) at Costco here in Canada, but that was many months ago, sold out quickly, and I haven't seen it since.

Don't overlook international markets. Apple keeps withered iPhones in the lineup 1-2 years longer in markets like India than they do in the US or Europe so a lot of people don't realize they're still in production. They do this to a lesser degree with Mac, but it's hard to be certain what Apple has stopped production of. I know Apple was still selling M1 MacBook Airs through their Vietnam store 6 months ago.

 

[Eug]

Don't overlook international markets. Apple keeps withered iPhones in the lineup 1-2 years longer in markets like India than they do in the US or Europe so a lot of people don't realize they're still in production. They do this to a lesser degree with Mac, but it's hard to be certain what Apple has stopped production of. I know Apple was still selling M1 MacBook Airs through their Vietnam store 6 months ago.

I'll admit I don't know much about Mac sales in Vietnam, but looking at their website, they only have the M4 MacBook Air now online now. No M1, M2, or even M3. The M4 MBA came out in March, which is only 4 months ago. I get the impression they largely purged the old models once the M4 came out. That M2 MBA fire sale at Costco here was around that time.

OTOH, I do know they do keep old models in production many, many years after they're discontinued, for refurb replacements even in North America. So I guess there's that. However, I don't know how many of those are truly new machines (but serialed as refurbs) and how many are true refurbs. For example, I took my kid's 7 year-old 2018 iPhone XR into the store last month because it was defective. They offered to sell me a refurb in 2025 to replace it because they believed it was likely a logic board issue. I ended up getting a 16e instead.

Speaking of Wal-Mart... the 16e went on sale last week for CA$200 off, or CA$699, which is US$514. Dammit, I missed the sale by just a few weeks. I had paid CA$899, which is US$661.

 

[johnsonwax]

My money would be on the M3 Ultra here too, but don’t you think Apple’s recent server chip ambitions have changed the game? There seem to be a lot of synergies with a hypothetical M5 or M6 Extreme.

Maybe. The problem is that their server chip ambitions are around ML cores and their Ultra market is centered around GPU. If these were discrete units then yeah, that would work, but that's a huge change. If they're looking at a dedicated server chip, that already rules out them just using more GPU for the ML work - they already have that product.

 

[poke01]

So the answer to that is to pretend newer nodes don't reduce power consumption?

Oh they absolutely do reduce power consumption.

This is not an all or nothing question ("NOOO it's all 3nm" "NNOOOOO it's all MAFIC ARCHITECTURE"). As almost always...

That’s I showed you even among the same CPUs that use the N3E node, Apple’s architecture (A18 Pro @ 4.05GHz) has notable INT and FP advantage compared to X925 at 3.9 GHz and 8 Elite @ 4.32GHz.

 

[Jan Olšan]

Oh they absolutely do reduce power consumption.


That’s I showed you even among the same CPUs that use the N3E node, Apple’s architecture (A18 Pro @ 4.05GHz) has notable INT and FP advantage compared to X925 at 3.9 GHz and 8 Elite @ 4.32GHz.

The initial comparison I reacted to was about multithread (and chips using different node), my reaction about nodes mattering was also about multithread. Your comparison of X925 and A18 Pro's P-Core is a single thread comparison. Peak 1T performance is something measured at peak clock of the core. That's rather different business than multithread performance. For example, desktop parts would completely throw away efficiency constraints and apply the highest ~safe voltage to clock up, with non-linear explosion in power usage. Curiously, process nodes actually often have small to no effect, sometimes their clock gain helps, but their power consumption gain metric does NOT. Now these two ARM cores aren't quite the same as AMD/Intel cores, but hopefully it illustrates why this can be a mistake that can lead you to wrong conlusions or views.

So, like I said, I was talking about multithreading. And there, you don't actually care that node gives you +150 MHz at peak voltage/clock point. What matters massively is that the node can reduce power by 30, 40 % at lower, more efficient points. At least in mobile CPUs (and sane desktop CPUs) multithread tasks don't run at peak clock as they are capped by a given power limit. And due to it, processors dial down and it becomes a game of how efficient they can be. And process node is absolutely huge there. This area is probably where new nodes bring largest gains in the current era and recent past (at least). This is the reason why GPUs gain from new nodes massively, but 1T performance of CPUs gains much less.

And of course, there is the problem that in MT, core with highest-1T performance may not actually win, because it can have worse performance/watt at the point where it is forced to run in the TDP-limited scenario. This is actually why big.LITTLE hybrid processor have been made lately.

 

[poke01]

The initial comparison I reacted to was about multithread (and chips using different node), my reaction about nodes mattering was also about multithread. Your comparison of X925 and A18 Pro's P-Core is a single thread comparison. Peak 1T performance is something measured at peak clock of the core. That's rather different business than multithread performance. For example, desktop parts would completely throw away efficiency constraints and apply the highest ~safe voltage to clock up, with non-linear explosion in power usage. Curiously, process nodes actually often have small to no effect, sometimes their clock gain helps, but their power consumption gain metric does NOT. Now these two ARM cores aren't quite the same as AMD/Intel cores, but hopefully it illustrates why this can be a mistake that can lead you to wrong conlusions or views.

So, like I said, I was talking about multithreading. And there, you don't actually care that node gives you +150 MHz at peak voltage/clock point. What matters massively is that the node can reduce power by 30, 40 % at lower, more efficient points. At least in mobile CPUs (and sane desktop CPUs) multithread tasks don't run at peak clock as they are capped by a given power limit. And due to it, processors dial down and it becomes a game of how efficient they can be. And process node is absolutely huge there. This area is probably where new nodes bring largest gains in the current era and recent past (at least). This is the reason why GPUs gain from new nodes massively, but 1T performance of CPUs gains much less.

And of course, there is the problem that in MT, core with highest-1T performance may not actually win, because it can have worse performance/watt at the point where it is forced to run in the TDP-limited scenario. This is actually why big.LITTLE hybrid processor have been made lately.

Ahh, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[poke01]

Apple A19, C2, M5 chip identifiers all leaked in early iOS 18 code

Several unreleased Apple Silicon chips recently surfaced in an internal build of iOS 18, including A19, M5, and C2, according to exclusive information provided to AppleInsider.

appleinsider.com

fun stuff

 

[poke01]

IDC: Mac Shipments Continue to Soar

Apple experienced the strongest year-over-year growth in global PC shipments during the second quarter of 2025 among the top five vendors, according...

www.macrumors.com

I feel like the M4 Macbook air is helping a lot in non-US markets

 

[mvprod123]

Apple A19, C2, M5 chip identifiers all leaked in early iOS 18 code

Several unreleased Apple Silicon chips recently surfaced in an internal build of iOS 18, including A19, M5, and C2, according to exclusive information provided to AppleInsider.

appleinsider.com

fun stuff

Previously, Dylan Patel from SemiAnalysis made a post on X that included several Apple code names supposedly all coming an N3P - Theras, Tilos, Hidra, Sotra, Baltra, Isonoe.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875961526244520029

 

[Eug]

IDC: Mac Shipments Continue to Soar

Apple experienced the strongest year-over-year growth in global PC shipments during the second quarter of 2025 among the top five vendors, according...

www.macrumors.com

I feel like the M4 Macbook air is helping a lot in non-US markets

The upgrade to 16 GB last fall with a decrease in price this spring didn’t hurt either. New M4 with new 12 MP Center Stage camera plus Thunderbolt 4 with dual external monitor support for a lower price (US$999) is a strong offering when compared to last year’s M3 with 8 GB (US$1099). And now it comes in blue too!

I’m really curious though how Apple will position an A18 Pro MacBook / MacBook Air, if the rumors about its existence are true.

 

[Doug S]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875961526244520029

Given that Q2 timing I wouldn't be shocked if we see an M6 iPad Pro in early May like we did last year's M4 iPad Pro, unless Apple is going to use all its pre iPhone 18 wafers to make stuff for their own datacenters.

 

[mvprod123]

The new Vision Pro with M4 is on the way.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-09/apple-readies-first-upgrade-to-its-struggling-vision-pro-headset?srnd=undefined

"Apple is also testing versions of the new device that increase the number of cores inside of the neural engine — a component for processing artificial intelligence tasks. The neural engine in the current Vision Pro includes 16 cores, a measure of processing power. "

Interesting statement. The M4 also has 16 cores. Is there a separate version with better ANE? Is it possible that Apple made a separate die for a better NE? Does this also apply to the M5, which has more cores?

 

[Doug S]

The new Vision Pro with M4 is on the way.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-09/apple-readies-first-upgrade-to-its-struggling-vision-pro-headset?srnd=undefined

"Apple is also testing versions of the new device that increase the number of cores inside of the neural engine — a component for processing artificial intelligence tasks. The neural engine in the current Vision Pro includes 16 cores, a measure of processing power. "

Interesting statement. The M4 also has 16 cores. Is there a separate version with better ANE? Is it possible that Apple made a separate die for a better NE? Does this also apply to the M5, which has more cores?

Wouldn't make sense to make a separate M4 die just for that. Maybe the R2 will have its own ANE cores and that's what they're referring to?

 

[mvprod123]

New rumour: iPhone 17 Air Now Said to Feature binned A19 Pro Chip

• iPhone 17: A19 chip
• iPhone 17 Air: A19 Pro chip (5-core GPU)
• iPhone 17 Pro: A19 Pro chip (6-core GPU)
• iPhone 17 Pro Max: A19 Pro chip (6-core GPU)

iPhone 17 Air Now Said to Feature A19 Pro Chip With One Limitation

Apple's rumored "iPhone 17 Air" will be equipped with an A19 Pro chip instead of an A19 chip, according to Fixed Focus Digital, an...

www.macrumors.com

 

[poke01]

The upgrade to 16 GB last fall with a decrease in price this spring didn’t hurt either. New M4 with new 12 MP Center Stage camera plus Thunderbolt 4 with dual external monitor support for a lower price (US$999) is a strong offering when compared to last year’s M3 with 8 GB (US$1099). And now it comes in blue too!

I’m really curious though how Apple will position an A18 Pro MacBook / MacBook Air, if the rumors about its existence are true.

The MacBook Air M4 has been in top 5 of best sellers on Amazon in almost all markets.

The M4 Air deserves to be in the top 5 unlike MacBook Airs of past.

 

[Doug S]

New rumour: iPhone 17 Air Now Said to Feature binned A19 Pro Chip

• iPhone 17: A19 chip
• iPhone 17 Air: A19 Pro chip (5-core GPU)
• iPhone 17 Pro: A19 Pro chip (6-core GPU)
• iPhone 17 Pro Max: A19 Pro chip (6-core GPU)

iPhone 17 Air Now Said to Feature A19 Pro Chip With One Limitation

Apple's rumored "iPhone 17 Air" will be equipped with an A19 Pro chip instead of an A19 chip, according to Fixed Focus Digital, an...

www.macrumors.com

It isn't like there is much difference between A18 and A18P. An A19P with one GPU core binned is likely to be nearly identical to A19.

 

[smalM]

Wouldn't make sense to make a separate M4 die just for that. Maybe the R2 will have its own ANE cores and that's what they're referring to?

Maybe they just don't know what they're talking about?

 

[mvprod123]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-10/apple-plans-new-macbook-pro-iphone-17e-and-ipads-by-early-2026?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc1MjE3NDY1MCwiZXhwIjoxNzUyNzc5NDUwLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTWjFXMEtEV1gyUFMwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJDNEVEQ0FFMUZBMDU0MEJFQTI0QTlGMjExQzFFOTA4MCJ9.9jW-hyD66uCOnRKDSF5_2a3MHb-Cmywb3HHirn2W4b0

It seems that we will not be getting the M5 MacBook Pro this year. It will likely be another regular press release, similar to the M2 generation, around January 2026. The only M5 device to be unveiled this year will be the iPad Pro.

 

[Doug S]

Maybe they just don't know what they're talking about?

That was Gurman leaking it and it is about something that's supposed to be released later this year. He's usually fairly on the mark about stuff coming out soon.

I suppose another alternative is that it isn't M4 it is actually M5 - because I would be shocked if M5 doesn't bump up the size of the ANE.

 

[Doug S]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-07-10/apple-plans-new-macbook-pro-iphone-17e-and-ipads-by-early-2026?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc1MjE3NDY1MCwiZXhwIjoxNzUyNzc5NDUwLCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTWjFXMEtEV1gyUFMwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJDNEVEQ0FFMUZBMDU0MEJFQTI0QTlGMjExQzFFOTA4MCJ9.9jW-hyD66uCOnRKDSF5_2a3MHb-Cmywb3HHirn2W4b0

It seems that we will not be getting the M5 MacBook Pro this year. It will likely be another regular press release, similar to the M2 generation, around January 2026. The only M5 device to be unveiled this year will be the iPad Pro.

If they don't arrive until spring M5 might be an N2 design. If it is N3P I don't know why Apple would want to wait on releasing them this year. Any sort of new tech in them that might be delayed? Are they getting OLED displays or something?

 

[mvprod123]

If they don't arrive until spring M5 might be an N2 design. If it is N3P I don't know why Apple would want to wait on releasing them this year. Any sort of new tech in them that might be delayed? Are they getting OLED displays or something?

The worst thing is that the Mac Pro will once again not be updated this year. Could Apple be hinting that the M5 generation will have minor improvements (like the M2)? Although, according to rumours, the M5 Pro/Max/Ultra will have So_IC packaging. It's a strange situation.

 

[Doug S]

The worst thing is that the Mac Pro will once again not be updated this year. Could Apple be hinting that the M5 generation will have minor improvements (like the M2)? Although, according to rumours, the M5 Pro/Max/Ultra will have So_IC packaging. It's a strange situation.

Apple really does not seem to care all that much about the Mac Pro. I don't know how much it sells, but obviously not enough for Apple to prioritize those customers. For all the rumors about an "Extreme" level above Ultra it seems like there is more effort towards speculating about Mac Pro than Apple expends designing and shipping them.

 

[johnsonwax]

Apple really does not seem to care all that much about the Mac Pro. I don't know how much it sells, but obviously not enough for Apple to prioritize those customers. For all the rumors about an "Extreme" level above Ultra it seems like there is more effort towards speculating about Mac Pro than Apple expends designing and shipping them.

"The Mac Pro is a service product to keep certain markets on the platform which drive other sales - it's not really a product that makes Apple money. It's going to languish as a 'good enough' product." - me, last page

Lots of noise around the Mac Pro is because the people with that kind of reach are closer to the core audience of the Mac Pro. They're speculating about the thing they want. The Mini gets similar attention when it's at the 'I can tinker with this' price point like it is now. Things like the MBA mostly get ignored because they're for normies. And these people always get loud about the Mac Pro, in part because if you need a big f-off box of iron, none of the other product substitute - that's the only thing that works, and in part because they are sometimes aspirational buyers in some way - I want the fastest thing, and that's the fastest thing. They covet Ferraris. I have owned these machines in the past - it is nice to see them do something that nothing else can do - and you get to own it.

But Apple doesn't look at it that way. That used to be a place they got a lot of money, because if you were a dev hitting that compile button every day that time savings could pay for the machine. It doesn't any more for them, and devs are probably buying MBP (that's what I moved to) because the flexibility was worth the tradeoff, and compile just isn't that intensive a thing - software projects scale in human terms, not in Moores law terms. And so bit by bit the market for the Mac Pro has gotten smaller and smaller. It's mostly honest to god professional video and audio work. And they have cash, but there aren't really that many of them. But they're an important market because below them are a LOT of MBP sales, mid-tier professionals, high-end amateurs that all build off of that ecosystem. So, Apple does just enough to appease that market, and nothing more.

Now, we'll see if that changes. Products like the AVP open up new possibilities for compute for developing for AVP that Apple can gatekeep to their hardware - Spatial Audio/video that sort of thing. They go through those cycles. I would argue that most of the Mac Pro buyers are really happy with the Apple Studio. The only real difference is internal expansion and how many people really need that?

 

[Mopetar]

Apple seems to have a view of the Pro (and the people who buy it) that it doesn't need regular updates. The performance uplift they can achieve on a yearly basis isn't enough to justify dropping the five figure cost that those models demand once customized.

Ages ago when I worked in video production I used some of the first Mac Pros that were running dual Xeon processors. Even back then when technology was advancing far more rapidly those machines stuck around for a while. The capital investment means you can't just replace them next year when the new model is 15% faster.

All that aside, I'd love to see Apple treat the Pro like an F1 race car. Just make something obscenely powerful even if it's not practical or profitable. Make it the ultimate halo product for the top 1% of Mac users who really do need something more than a Mac Studio. Make a Mac that starts at $10,000, but is completely worth it for the customers who need it.

 

[Doug S]

All that aside, I'd love to see Apple treat the Pro like an F1 race car. Just make something obscenely powerful even if it's not practical or profitable. Make it the ultimate halo product for the top 1% of Mac users who really do need something more than a Mac Studio. Make a Mac that starts at $10,000, but is completely worth it for the customers who need it.

Isn't that what it already is? It starts at $7K but that's pretty close. What's different from the Intel Mac Pro days is that you could configure that up to $50K or more by maxing out the RAM, but the RAM choices are now a bit spartan by comparison. Maybe they could add some expansion options via LPCAMM to juice up that ASP lol