Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Doug S]

The 12” MacBook fans have been wanting a new one since my 2017 model was discontinued back in 2019. With the current chassis and the reduced bezel size of the M4 MacBook Air, they could fit a 12.5” screen in there if it gets the notch. That would meld well with an A18 Pro plus 16/256 GB that Apple could sell at a pricey US$899, but which would be frequently discounted at third party retailers to $799.

I don't think they'd use the MBA chassis. They will want this to have a distinct look. The talk about the colors it comes in makes me almost wonder if it might be done as sort of a throwback to the Apple of late 90s/early 00s with colorful plastic cases. Or maybe even translucent like the old school iMac, to take advantage of how much care Apple designs the innards as if they will be seen. Obviously they can and do have very colorful aluminum cases so that's the most likely but I wouldn't rule out plastic especially if it is targeted at Gen Z given their fetish for retro tech.

There are lots of directions they can go, but making something in the MBA case is not one of them. If they were going to do a smaller screen version of the MBA they'd introduce a smaller MBA with otherwise identical specs at $100 less and call it a day.

 

[Eug]

I don't think they'd use the MBA chassis. They will want this to have a distinct look. The talk about the colors it comes in makes me almost wonder if it might be done as sort of a throwback to the Apple of late 90s/early 00s with colorful plastic cases. Or maybe even translucent like the old school iMac, to take advantage of how much care Apple designs the innards as if they will be seen. Obviously they can and do have very colorful aluminum cases so that's the most likely but I wouldn't rule out plastic especially if it is targeted at Gen Z given their fetish for retro tech.

There are lots of directions they can go, but making something in the MBA case is not one of them. If they were going to do a smaller screen version of the MBA they'd introduce a smaller MBA with otherwise identical specs at $100 less and call it a day.

For the record, my 12" MacBook is not a MacBook Air. My MacBook came in multiple colours too (as does the current MacBook Air).

While I don't think they'd use the same chassis, I'm guessing they could design something similar, hopefully again in aluminum.

 

[poke01]

Overpay what exactly?

 

[Doug S]

Overpay what exactly?

Its the copium that Intel fanboys have to mainline to explain why their highest end CPU can't beat an iPhone in ST.

 

[okoroezenwa]

The talking points really have neatly moved from “Apple just has a node advantage” to “Apple’s cores are really huge” and that’s so interesting.

 

[Io Magnesso]

Because it is ARM, the performance is excellent ←❌️
Apple's semiconductor design team is incredibly good, so no matter what you make, it will be very good.←⭕️
Later, priority use of TSMC's latest process

 

[Io Magnesso]

That being said, it may be time to reconsider the basic design that continues from the Apple A4 left by Jim Keller.

 

[name99]

That being said, it may be time to reconsider the basic design that continues from the Apple A4 left by Jim Keller.

Wrong in so many details.
For A4 and A5 Apple's contribution was to the SoC design (how the various IP blocks were wired together, in particular how they all accessed memory and how they all implemented QoS features). The CPU was from Samsung.
For A6 a "baby" CPU design was implemented, probably based on an existing design inside PA Semi, with
A7 as the "real" Apple CPU that resulted (I am guessing) from right after Apple acquired PA Semi they were told "OK, go wild, design the best CPU you can imagine with only this power level and this area as your constraints".

You can never be sure who does what, but it seems like the biggest big picture design mind behind the A7 CPU was Gerard Williams III.

As for redesign, they have not been AT ALL shy about that.
The CPU is constantly being rethought with major elements (like instruction fetch) changing every few years. The NoC/SoC element (ie how all the IP blocks are connected to each other and to memory) has gone through at least three very obvious big re-designs. All this is covered in my PDFs.

You don't see this because Apple (unlike eg Intel or AMD) don't *sell* their CPU or even the SoC, each year.
What they do each year is tease out some particular element that's worth noting (a few years ago they pointed out how many thousands of separate voltage islands they use on the SoC, and they called out AMX, and then Dynamic Caching as a GPU feature two or three years ago); but they don't do the AMD/Intel thing of attaching a brand name to each of the 20 improvements they made in this year's CPU or SoC design.
So they won't crow about "DynaFetchPrediction" or whatever brand name as a big feature in the next CPU, even though it is technically a big deal and improves performance by 4% (or whatever). They just keep adding these things year after year.

 

[name99]

Its the copium that Intel fanboys have to mainline to explain why their highest end CPU can't beat an iPhone in ST.

The problem is the obsession with GHz. Always.
For the latest update:

https://www.reuters.com/business/re...shift-chip-manufacturing-business-2025-07-02/

The two important points (obfuscated by the usual journalist blather) appear to be
- Panther Lake will be on 18A BUT
- Intel has lost confidence in (or can't find customers for) Foundry 18A

As usual Intel's fans are its own worst enemies, already carpet-bombing Twitter to insist that this is all fake news/was already part of the plan/doesn't matter because 18A-P (referenced in the article, but that would require reading) was what customers were targeting.

My suspicion is that this is playing out exactly as I expected.
- Intel CPU wants a process that maximizes GHz, just like they always have.
- And they got their way.
- Resulting in a process that's uninteresting to every outside customer that matters (because those customers prioritize density and power).

Ahh, Intel and GHz. The poisoned gift that keeps on giving, decade after decade...

 

[Eug]

There are lots of directions they can go, but making something in the MBA case is not one of them. If they were going to do a smaller screen version of the MBA they'd introduce a smaller MBA with otherwise identical specs at $100 less and call it a day.

Re: A18 MacBook

I had forgotten that A18 Pro does not support Thunderbolt. So that means that an A18 Pro MacBook would likely support USB 3 only like the iPad Air (even though the iPad Air has an M3). In that case if the M4/M5 MacBook Air starts at US$999, perhaps an A18 Pro MacBook might start at below $899. Perhaps $799 to $849?

 

[Doug S]

Re: A18 MacBook

I had forgotten that A18 Pro does not support Thunderbolt. So that means that an A18 Pro MacBook would likely support USB 3 only like the iPad Air (even though the iPad Air has an M3). In that case if the M4/M5 MacBook Air starts at US$999, perhaps an A18 Pro MacBook might start at below $899. Perhaps $799 to $849?

Do we know for sure that it doesn't support TB? It isn't like Apple publishes chip specs, or would expose TB connection ability in a phone.

Though I doubt it matters. Probably not all that many Macbook Air owners ever connect a TB device so it wouldn't be missed on a new entry level Macbook.

 

[Io Magnesso]

Wrong in so many details.
For A4 and A5 Apple's contribution was to the SoC design (how the various IP blocks were wired together, in particular how they all accessed memory and how they all implemented QoS features). The CPU was from Samsung.
For A6 a "baby" CPU design was implemented, probably based on an existing design inside PA Semi, with
A7 as the "real" Apple CPU that resulted (I am guessing) from right after Apple acquired PA Semi they were told "OK, go wild, design the best CPU you can imagine with only this power level and this area as your constraints".

You can never be sure who does what, but it seems like the biggest big picture design mind behind the A7 CPU was Gerard Williams III.

As for redesign, they have not been AT ALL shy about that.
The CPU is constantly being rethought with major elements (like instruction fetch) changing every few years. The NoC/SoC element (ie how all the IP blocks are connected to each other and to memory) has gone through at least three very obvious big re-designs. All this is covered in my PDFs.

You don't see this because Apple (unlike eg Intel or AMD) don't *sell* their CPU or even the SoC, each year.
What they do each year is tease out some particular element that's worth noting (a few years ago they pointed out how many thousands of separate voltage islands they use on the SoC, and they called out AMX, and then Dynamic Caching as a GPU feature two or three years ago); but they don't do the AMD/Intel thing of attaching a brand name to each of the 20 improvements they made in this year's CPU or SoC design.
So they won't crow about "DynaFetchPrediction" or whatever brand name as a big feature in the next CPU, even though it is technically a big deal and improves performance by 4% (or whatever). They just keep adding these things year after year.

It's too convenient

 

[Io Magnesso]

For example... In an academic location like Hotchips, Apple never announces its processors...
It's amazing that you know about the M system processor
But I'm not fooling Intel and AMD
I think Apple and Intel/AMD are amazing

 

[The Hardcard]

Do we know for sure that it doesn't support TB? It isn't like Apple publishes chip specs, or would expose TB connection ability in a phone.

Though I doubt it matters. Probably not all that many Macbook Air owners ever connect a TB device so it wouldn't be missed on a new entry level Macbook.

Especially since the Macbook A18 Pro doesn’t necessarily have to have the same die or firmware as the iPhone A18 Pro.

 

[Eug]

Good points. Plus Thunderbolt has been rolled into USB 4 anyway, and I guess in retrospect it makes sense that even a cut-down 2026 entry-level machine would be USB 4 / Thunderbolt, especially now that some of Apple's mainstream Macs are now already Thunderbolt 5.

That would fit better with my $899-sometimes-discounted-to-$799-at-Amazon/Best-Buy prediction. Either way, these machines would be excellent for my soon to be high school age kid, if it came with 16 GB and 256 GB.

I would have bought such a machine for my wife too, but we didn't want to wait any longer so I bought the M4 MacBook Air. The M4 is MASSIVELY overpowered for what she uses the MacBook Air for, and honestly it's also massively overpowered for what I use my iPad Pro for. This is actually the reason I had predicted an Ax series SoC for the entry-level MacBook Air 5 years ago. Even M1 was way overpowered for most users of the first MacBook Air. I wonder if it had anything to do with I/O or something else though.

 

[Io Magnesso]

Good points. Plus Thunderbolt has been rolled into USB 4 anyway, and I guess in retrospect it makes sense that even a cut-down 2026 entry-level machine would be USB 4 / Thunderbolt, especially now that some of Apple's mainstream Macs are now already Thunderbolt 5.

That would fit better with my $899-sometimes-discounted-to-$799-at-Amazon/Best-Buy prediction. Either way, these machines would be excellent for my soon to be high school age kid, if it came with 16 GB and 256 GB.

I would have bought such a machine for my wife too, but we didn't want to wait any longer so I bought the M4 MacBook Air. The M4 is MASSIVELY overpowered for what she uses the MacBook Air for, and honestly it's also massively overpowered for what I use my iPad Pro for. This is actually the reason I had predicted an Ax series SoC for the entry-level MacBook Air 5 years ago. Even M1 was way overpowered for most users of the first MacBook Air. I wonder if it had anything to do with I/O or something else though.

I agree
Especially the iPad with M1 is more than enough
It doesn't look inferior even after 4 years after its release You don't even have to switch yet
Considering that, the iPad Pro M4 is too over-spec... The OS is a bit of a neck...

 

[DavidC1]

Its the copium that Intel fanboys have to mainline to explain why their highest end, 300W CPU can't beat an iPhone in ST.

Fixed that for you.

35W for a single core versus what, 6W?

Looking at how fast their CPUs have advanced not too far from Core 2's introduction makes me wonder if there was nothing special about Conroe, and a CPU far superior could have been made.

This is also why I don't believe x86 camp's perf/clock gains are reaching a fundamental wall. The computers that fit into the palm of your hand is faster at a much lower frequency.

The problem is the obsession with GHz. Always.
For the latest update:

Both AMD and Intel are still poisoned by it. The difference is previously they took Cyanide, this time maybe Isopropanol.

 

[Doug S]

Especially since the Macbook A18 Pro doesn’t necessarily have to have the same die or firmware as the iPhone A18 Pro.

Wouldn't make sense to use a different A18P for this - if they had a special die for it they'd give it a different name. Now different firmware / different fuses blown, absolutely. If the A18P did have TB support built in but it simply wasn't enabled on the iPhone 16 Pro they could have it enabled on a Mac that contains it.

But using a different die is not a good option for them. One of the main benefits of using iPhone SoCs in stuff like iPads, Apple TVs and apparently now Macs is it gives Apple something to do with the excess. And they will have a LOT of excess.

Think of it this way. It takes ~3 months from blank wafer to finished wafer, then there is test and packaging, and having Foxconn assemble them in products (possibly in other countries so they have to traverse customs) so it is a minimum of 4 and maybe as long as 6 months. They also probably need some lead time for TSMC to change their wafer run scheduling. Apple can't just produce exactly as many as SoCs they need because they don't know how many iPhones they'll sell, and now that they have different SoCs for base and Pro they have to forecast the overall product mix in addition to total sales. So they need to make a LOT more than they will end up actually using, which means they'll have millions left over.

Apple had already found solutions for the non Pro SoCs, back when that is all there was. They put them in products that don't follow an iPhone like calendar for their release cycle like the base iPad and iPhone SE - and even Apple TV, Studio Display, and HomePod. Now they need something to use up the millions of Pro SoCs they'll have left over, which is why they'll want to use the same die in this Mac. This new Macbook wouldn't follow an iPhone like calendar either, so it'll allow them to use up the necessary excess production their calendar based iPhone release schedule imposes on them.

One could point out that the differences between A18 and A18P are pretty small - Apple could disable a few things and sell a cut down A18P as an A18. But that won't always be true, since some years like with A17P they won't have a base model. Next year we'll see the N2 A20P, and we may not see an A20 - it'll probably be A19 again like they did with iPhone 15.

 

[The Hardcard]

We know there are two separate M3 Max dies, a significantly more complex and expensive undertaking for a far less volume, though to be sure much more lucrative product. Given the likelihood that they will move some millions of a budget Macbook, there is nothing that precludes them from making another tiny die.

The sole issue is what they want to include on the Macbook, there has been talk about this product for at least a couple of years. Certainly both products were discussed in the design of the A18 Pro and it would be unsurprising to see a Macbook without Thunderbolt.

At the same time if there are significant features that they want for the Macbook over the iPhone, a separate die is absolutely one perfectly Apple way to address them.

 

[poke01]

This is on an inferior N4P node vs N3E

Yes, while Apple has a node advantage their cores are just good. Strix Halo has a 16P/32T setup vs a M4 Pro with 10P+4E/14T. If AMD did not have SMT they would just get destroyed. Again this in regarding apps like Blender and handbrake.

IF someone in the windows world got Apple like cores and with SMT or without SMT then AMD and Intel have to pay attention.

 

[poke01]

So actually I take back what I said before, Apple cores are better period. A node advantage does not enable you to keep up with a 16 Zen5 core setup while Apple setup has 10P cores in the example above.

 

[adroc_thurston]

So actually I take back what I said before, Apple cores are better period. A node advantage does not enable you to keep up with a 16 Zen5 core setup while Apple setup has 10P cores in the example above.

a) it's 10+4 (they're pretty mean LITTLEs)
b) it really does for power-limited nT. That's why Turin-D is N3e.

 

[511]

View attachment 126568

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Yes, while Apple has a node advantage their cores are just good. Strix Halo has a 16P/32T setup vs a M4 Pro with 10P+4E/14T. If AMD did not have SMT they would just get destroyed. Again this is regarding apps like Blender and handbrake.

IF someone in the windows world got Apple like cores and with SMT or without SMT then AMD and Intel have to pay attention.

Should have used Linux to minimize the OS Disadvantage AMD is facing also no ARL-HX Chip here at 50W to get a better idea overall

 

[Eug]

One could point out that the differences between A18 and A18P are pretty small - Apple could disable a few things and sell a cut down A18P as an A18. But that won't always be true, since some years like with A17P they won't have a base model. Next year we'll see the N2 A20P, and we may not see an A20 - it'll probably be A19 again like they did with iPhone 15.

Side note. IMO, the iPhone 15 and 15 Plus with their 6 GB RAM and A16 are aging pretty poorly:

No Apple Intelligence
No Photos Clean Up
No Wind Noise Reduction
No Audio Mix

These are all features present even in the “budget” iPhone 16e with its A18 and 8 GB RAM. (The 15 Pro and 15 Pro Max with their A17 Pro and 8 GB RAM get AI and Photos Clean Up but not the two new camera audio features.)

Those 4 features are all pretty big ones. Hopefully something similar won’t happen again with say the iPhone 18 / 18 Plus with reused A19 when the Pros go to A20. I don’t know much these differences are due to artificial software restrictions and how much are due to hardware, but Apple does indicate that those audio features depend upon machine learning algorithms.

 

[gdansk]

If AMD did not have SMT they would just get destroyed.

What's the point here? That's why they have it. It isn't free, it's their chosen way of increasing MT performance and increasing utilization of execution resources.

It has downsides, but barely any in the benchmarks shown.