Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Doug S]

FWIW, as expected the new M5 MacBook Pro still only comes with Thunderbolt 4. Also, while the iPad Pro M5 can support 120 Hz now, it's only at 4K, not 6K. The iPad Pro is USB 4 / Thunderbolt 3.

IOW, the new iPad Pro and new MacBook Pro are mostly simple SoC spec bumps. I'm glad I went all in with the M4 last year and this year - a Mac mini, an iPad Pro, and (for the wife) a MacBook Air.

M4 Pro/Max was already TB 5 so looks like they are maintaining the same separation from the base model for M5. The display controller has to be able to handle a given resolution/frequency option, it isn't just the bandwidth to display that determines that.

 

[Doug S]

Here's my question on the M5 - how did they go from 120GB/s to 153GB/s memory bandwidth from the M4 to the M5?

Bumped it to LPDDR5X-9600.

 

[name99]

Higher resolution? You mean like 8K 60 Hz, and if so, at what size? If Apple wanted to stick to its usual 2X scaling, it'd ideally be around 40", which seems unlikely to me at this time. Also, macOS doesn't support 3X scaling AFAIK. (Well, not yet anyway, but iOS already does.) If they stuck with 32" at 8K, then that would suggest non-integer scaling.

Is there a 6K 120 Hz panel out there? Cuz that would work with both Thunderbolt 5 / DisplayPort 2.1 and HDMI 2.1 with DSC, and even could work with Thunderbolt 4 / DisplayPort 1.4 with DSC. It appears DisplayPort 2.1 without DSC does NOT have quite enough bandwidth for 6K 120 Hz, although it's pretty close, and Apple has been known to use non-standard methods to achieve what they want in terms of video output.

However, if there really is an update to the Pro Display XDR coming, it may just get a faster SoC as you suggest, maybe a FaceTime camera, and higher density mini-LED. (The current Pro Display XDR isn't quite mini-LED). Or else pipe dream: tandem OLED?

In the meantime, I'm just hoping the new crop of 6K 60 Hz monitors don't suck.

Apple, for better or worse, has been happy to go with weirdo resolutions that no-one uses (the whole 5K line, used and over again, then 6K for the XDR display).

So who knows? They could ship something weird like 7K@90Hz and it turns out everyone who looks at it agrees that, yeah, that's absolutely the sweet spot right now for TB5/DS2.1.

 

[johnsonwax]

I wouldn't bash this. It makes sense in phones at least. In laptops, it's probably much rarer to be in a situation where you already have an unused charger, but in principle it can happen. It seems they did drop the price a bit, though of course the big long-term strategy probably intends to improve margins on this.

Perhaps Apple fans that must buy everything to help the company but don't use all those devices at the same time? Or obviously for the cases where your previous Apple notebook broke, for whatever reason.

I never use Apple's chargers. I exclusively use 3rd party dual PD GaN ones usually so I can run both my Mac and iPad simultaneously. My wife does as well.

 

[coercitiv]

You're overlooking the meaning of 'can' vs 'must'. Apple can include it. They aren't required to include it.

How can I overlook it when I was pointing out this exact thing?

The question is whether a laptop is 'radio equipment' which is the kind of stuff Apple has been punished for by the EU, because I think the aim of the law is ambiguous.

That's the first thing I searched for in the guidance doc:

 

[StinkyPinky]

the m5 GPU is really good. Looking forward to third party tests. A 35% increase in performance over last gen with no core increase.

Games and apps may go even higher

Bodes well for the M5 Pro GPU performance. That would make it comfortably faster than the M1 Max I would think?

I think I may get an M5 Pro Mac mini when it comes out next year.

 

[LightningDust]

Here's my question on the M5 - how did they go from 120GB/s to 153GB/s memory bandwidth from the M4 to the M5?

Presumably going from LPDDR5X-7500 to -9600.

 

[mvprod123]

Here's my question on the M5 - how did they go from 120GB/s to 153GB/s memory bandwidth from the M4 to the M5?

LPDDR5X-7500 --> LPPDR5X-9600

 

[Jan Olšan]

That exactly matches what you get by using LPDDR5X-9600 instead of LPDDR5X-7500 (both at 128bit width).

 

[name99]

M5 iPad Pro
C1X
12 GB RAM

Apple introduces the powerful new iPad Pro with the M5 chip

Apple today introduced the new iPad Pro with M5, delivering a huge boost in performance and taking the next big leap in AI for iPad.

www.apple.com

Featuring a next-generation GPU with a Neural Accelerator in each core, M5 delivers a big boost in performance for iPad Pro users, whether they’re working on cutting-edge projects or tapping into AI for productivity. The new iPad Pro delivers up to 3.5x the AI performance than iPad Pro with M4 and up to 5.6x faster than iPad Pro with M1. N1, the new Apple-designed wireless networking chip, enables the latest generation of wireless technologies with support for Wi-Fi 7 on iPad Pro.

Anyone else find the N1 the most interesting (in the sense that it's the one we know least about) part of these announcements?
Is there a Geekerwan level review of the N1 and how it performs relative to the competition?

I expect many people here have reviewed the recent Intel slide dump:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-panther-lake-technical-deep-dive/13.html
IMHO the most appealing thing about it is that, contrary to Intel behavior for the last 20 years, they FINALLY STFU about their glorious future process and products 10 years from now and concentrate on the cold hard reality of 2025. The all-AI-all-the-time is a bit much, but, again in 2025 what do you expect?
Anyway the Panther Lake part of the slides has interesting discussions regarding their N1 equivalent (ie the PTL integrated radio solution), and it would be neat to see how Apple compares to that. Since this is Apple's first attempt, they may be more at the MediaTek level than the Intel/QC level?

BTW one thing that's interesting on those slides is that it clarifies that the radio digital logic sits on the PTL package, as part of the IO chiplet, with a special connector to the RF silicon which is, I think, a separate chip not even on the package?
This replicates the layout I expect Apple to move to as soon as they can - (basically when they're confident enough in their new radio HW that they can take a risk like this) - move the digital logic for BT and WiFi (and even cellular?) to the main SoC, where it can be part of the overall power control logic and maybe even share RAM with the rest of the SoC? - with the RF part manufactured on a separate chiplet, which Apple may consider worth integrating on the package to save power?
My GUESS is that Intel separates the RF front end rather than integrating it as a chiplet for business reasons (eg some OEMs want to buy a Broadcom radio setup) and Intel has to at least make it look like they're not crowding out that business, at least not yet.
Apple OTOH has rather different incentives.

 

[name99]

Apple clearly recognizing the real enemy now - us M1 owners that are still thrilled with our devices and not feeling an impending need to upgrade. I had originally planned on upgrading my M1 Max with an M4, and when M4 came out decided it was fine. I'm a few months out of the M5 Max and still not sure I'll jump or wait for the M6 Max. These machines are just too good. My A12X iPad Pro has seen better days, and it's ready for a replacement though.

Apple need to start a new ad campaign "Santa Apple".

"You love your M1 mac, and for good reasons. But wouldn't you like to share that love?
How about this year you treat yourself with a new Mac and give your M1 model to that special person in your life?" followed by tearful shots of giving the old mac to your gardener, your nephew, your receptionist, your favorite stripper.

What do you think 🤣

 

[DZero]

Once again, Apple did not show die shot (

Chinese: Fine, we'll do that ourselves!

lol

https://twitter.com/x/status/1978460785698590992

LOOOL! how? This part is important! is not like the other devices!

 

[poke01]

Bodes well for the M5 Pro GPU performance. That would make it comfortably faster than the M1 Max I would think?

I think I may get an M5 Pro Mac mini when it comes out next year.

Yeah it’s the first time in a VERY long time where Apples PPA won’t suck.(GPU wise)

 

[okoroezenwa]

Yeah it’s the first time in a VERY long time where Apples PPA won’t suck.(GPU wise)

Was there a time it didn’t?

 

[Eug]

M4 Pro/Max was already TB 5 so looks like they are maintaining the same separation from the base model for M5. The display controller has to be able to handle a given resolution/frequency option, it isn't just the bandwidth to display that determines that.

FWIW, the iPad Pro has been able to drive 6K displays - at 60 Hz - since the 2022 M2 model. Actually, as of iPadOS 17, even the 2021 M1 iPad Pro can do it too.

Bodes well for the M5 Pro GPU performance. That would make it comfortably faster than the M1 Max I would think?

I think I may get an M5 Pro Mac mini when it comes out next year.

Depends upon what you're using it for. Are you talking about GPU specifically, or all main aspects of the SoC? The M1 Max has two media engines vs one in the M5 Pro.

Mx Ultra >> Mx Max >> Mx Pro ~ Mx



BTW, are we 100% convinced the Mac mini will get the M5 series update? They skipped M3.

 

[poke01]

Was there a time it didn’t?

M1, M2 and especially M3 GPU. It got better with M4 but M5 is much better

 

[poke01]

Depends upon what you're using it for. Are you talking about GPU specifically, or all main aspects of the SoC? The

If you don’t use Final Cut which heavily relies on the media engines and use Resolve the M5 GPU is a major upgrade.

Blackmagic optimised its editor for Metal and frankly that’s the way to go rather than depending on media engines.

 

[Mopetar]

That's only half the truth though, and quite a different perspective once you understand the aim of the law.

View attachment 132091
View attachment 132092

It's a good thing that laws always achieve the exact outcome that was intended and never have unintended consequences.

Apple clearly recognizing the real enemy now - us M1 owners that are still thrilled with our devices and not feeling an impending need to upgrade.

I feel the same. The new products are nice, but my M1 MBP is still working like a champ. I have no desire to upgrade. Apple knocked it out of the park with their M1 MacBooks. It's easily their best product since the vaunted 4-core Intel MacBooks back in the day.

BTW, are we 100% convinced the Mac mini will get the M5 series update? They skipped M3.

The M3 was an unusual generation. I think that the decision to skip was more down to cost and/or chip availability than anything else, especially given that M4 shipped just 6 months later. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the M3 generation.