AP: Afghanistan civilian death count likely in mid-hundreds, not thousands like others have suggested

[Jzero]

<< i'm the idiot, are you kidding me, they took the first shot, what bunch of idiots installed that gov't in afghanistan, you know, the same gov't that gave these terrorists their training and weapons, come on you are the genius, who was it, oh yeah, the US wow, that must be such a suprise for you, considering its your own govts fault that these people hate us,

and you want an alternative to fighting terrosim, imagine if we stayed out of afghanistan, or we never gave weapons to iraq, or we never got involved in any of these middle eastern conflicts, you want to know how to stop terrorism, maybe the first step is not pissing people of so much that they resort to it, i highly doubt that bin laden hates the US because he's jealous that we are a rich country, he has more money than most people here, and i highly doubt that its because of the way we live and we aren't muslim, aren't you the same idiots that keep saying this whole jihad is just a cover,

i think bin laden just wants revenge, revenge for what the us did to him first, so a$$, we are the ones that started it, and its idiots like you that we can thank for this terrorist bullsh!t, i hope you don't work in any tall buildings or federal buildings, because since your war on terrorism isn't doing sh!t and its just time before we get attacked again >>



Whoa....I think you should hold up and do some research before you continue any farther.
And it must be easy to play monday morning quarterback.

 

[Capn]

"what bunch of idiots installed that gov't in afghanistan, you know, the same gov't that gave these terrorists their training and weapons, come on you are the genius, who was it, oh yeah, the US wow, "

The U.S. government did not install the Taliban regime. The U.S. supported the muhajadeen in their war vs. the Soviets, this is not the same group as the taliban.

 

[bigdog1218]

<< Agreed, no profile, no common sense, no sense of reality, no idea his fantasy land doesn't work the same as the real world, no ability to control his temper, no idea that talking like a big man on the internet really shows how much of a man you aren't, and no sense wasting anyone's time trying to deal with his inane ramblings. >>



i'm sorry i guess not everyone is as perfect as you are, and i guess since my little fantasy land isn't possible we shouldn't even bother trying, talking like a big man, i don't know were that one came from, since i guess my opinion makes me a big man, and oh to keep in the theme of things, he called me a moron first so it was ok to lose my temper, i guess i win

 

[ToBeMe]

<< i'm the idiot, are you kidding me, they took the first shot, what bunch of idiots installed that gov't in afghanistan, you know, the same gov't that gave these terrorists their training and weapons, come on you are the genius, who was it, oh yeah, the US wow, that must be such a suprise for you, considering its your own govts fault that these people hate us,

and you want an alternative to fighting terrosim, imagine if we stayed out of afghanistan, or we never gave weapons to iraq, or we never got involved in any of these middle eastern conflicts, you want to know how to stop terrorism, maybe the first step is not pissing people of so much that they resort to it, i highly doubt that bin laden hates the US because he's jealous that we are a rich country, he has more money than most people here, and i highly doubt that its because of the way we live and we aren't muslim, aren't you the same idiots that keep saying this whole jihad is just a cover,

i think bin laden just wants revenge, revenge for what the us did to him first, so a$$, we are the ones that started it, and its idiots like you that we can thank for this terrorist bullsh!t, i hope you don't work in any tall buildings or federal buildings, because since your war on terrorism isn't doing sh!t and its just time before we get attacked again >>


You're so deluded.............what's the point in talking to you!

This one makes the old addage so true..................

Never argue with an idiot..........he'll only lower you to his level and beat you with expierience!!

 

[Kipper]

bigdog1218nexttimeyoumightwanttouseappropriatepunctuationbecauseyourpostissohardtoreadihadtoreaditseveraltimesbeforeiprocessedit

But anyway...the United States' Middle-Eastern/Asian policy of the 60's and 70's is coming back to bite us in the butt, that's more than apparent. If you don't clean up after yourself, the consequences definitely follow, and the rise of terrorism and anti-American sentiment in the Middle East is one of these. As far as civilian deaths are concerned, this is simply unacceptable. While it may be true that casualties of war will happen, technically this was never a war as Congress never declared war (correct me if I'm wrong here). I was never a supporter of this supposed "war on terrorism" and while I don't support terrorism, I think there's more ways to go about fixing the problem than bombing those people which already hate our guts.

 

[Texmaster]

<< i'm the idiot, are you kidding me, they took the first shot, what bunch of idiots installed that gov't in afghanistan, you know, the same gov't that gave these terrorists their training and weapons, come on you are the genius, who was it, oh yeah, the US wow, that must be such a suprise for you, considering its your own govts fault that these people hate us, >>



Yes YOU are the IDIOT. And your arguement only strengthens the reason they should NOT have attacked us.

And name one thing the US has done to JUSTIFY 3,000 people dead in a terrorist attack.

JUST ONE you halfwit.



<< and you want an alternative to fighting terrosim, imagine if we stayed out of afghanistan, or we never gave weapons to iraq, or we never got involved in any of these middle eastern conflicts, you want to know how to stop terrorism, maybe the first step is not pissing people of so much that they resort to it, i highly doubt that bin laden hates the US because he's jealous that we are a rich country, he has more money than most people here, and i highly doubt that its because of the way we live and we aren't muslim, aren't you the same idiots that keep saying this whole jihad is just a cover, >>



OH PLEASE! Why don't we just hide under our beds while we're at it. My God please tell me you aren't that ignorant about world affairs.



<< i think bin laden just wants revenge, revenge for what the us did to him first, so a$$, we are the ones that started it, and its idiots like you that we can thank for this terrorist bullsh!t, i hope you don't work in any tall buildings or federal buildings, because since your war on terrorism isn't doing sh!t and its just time before we get attacked again >>



REVENGE? Bin Laden was NEVER against the US. in Afganistan. He fought against the Russians as we did.

My God how STUPID can you be?

And for you to say we haven't hurt the terrorist organization just shows how completely stupid you really are.

 

[Amused]

<< i'm the idiot, are you kidding me, they took the first shot, what bunch of idiots installed that gov't in afghanistan, you know, the same gov't that gave these terrorists their training and weapons, come on you are the genius, who was it, oh yeah, the US wow, that must be such a suprise for you, considering its your own govts fault that these people hate us,

and you want an alternative to fighting terrosim, imagine if we stayed out of afghanistan, or we never gave weapons to iraq, or we never got involved in any of these middle eastern conflicts, you want to know how to stop terrorism, maybe the first step is not pissing people of so much that they resort to it, i highly doubt that bin laden hates the US because he's jealous that we are a rich country, he has more money than most people here, and i highly doubt that its because of the way we live and we aren't muslim, aren't you the same idiots that keep saying this whole jihad is just a cover,

i think bin laden just wants revenge, revenge for what the us did to him first, so a$$, we are the ones that started it, and its idiots like you that we can thank for this terrorist bullsh!t, i hope you don't work in any tall buildings or federal buildings, because since your war on terrorism isn't doing sh!t and its just time before we get attacked again >>



Good lawd, where did you learn your history?

The US did not install the Taliban.

The US helped save Afghanistan from Soviet occupation.

We gave weapons to Iraq when they were fighting Iran right after Iran took the hostages in 79.

The US did nothing to Bin Laden except make him a hero in the Afghan/Soviet war and save his homeland from Iraq.

 

[bigdog1218]

sorry about the punctuation, and sorry i got heated, and i must be an idiot because of the great explanations tobeme wrote to show that i'm an idiot, thanks i've learned my lesson and i'll never talk bad about the US again

it all makes sense now,
its not revenge if we got attacked first, because its doesn't count when we destroy other peoples lives
its ok to kill innocent people, texmaster has proven his point over and over
if you don't argree with everything the gov't does you should just leave because you are either an idiot, or a communist
if you don't believe everything the gov't says you're a moron

500 lives are ok, but i wonder how many of you will be crying for more 'justice' the next time the US gets attacked, i have a real question for all of you war lovers,

do you value american lives over the lives of afghani people, and if so why? because the way I look at is people are people

and I saw this quote at a T stop, i don't know if it was exactly correct but

"Killing under the cover of war is still murder"
Albert E.

and the whole profile thing, i don't know what it would prove but
Joseph Parisi
I'm from NY, live in Boston now
I go to Northeastern, i work for a software company because they always hire idiots and 10 year olds and whatever else you said
I'm 20, i guess that makes me a stupid kid or something

 

[burnedout]

Remember the thread about this same subject from January?

I posted a followup about it yesterday also.

Give 'em Hell Tex!

Yes, it's amazing so many put so much faith in a compilation from a college professor who wasn't even on the ground in Afghanistan. Now, will the same screwball zealots dismiss the report from a media organization in country, on the ground and using more factual evidence in lieu of Taliban propoganda?

Of course not.

 

[Random Variable]

<< sorry about the punctuation, and sorry i got heated, and i must be an idiot because of the great explanations tobeme wrote to show that i'm an idiot, thanks i've learned my lesson and i'll never talk bad about the US again

it all makes sense now,
its not revenge if we got attacked first, because its doesn't count when we destroy other peoples lives
its ok to kill innocent people, texmaster has proven his point over and over
if you don't argree with everything the gov't does you should just leave because you are either an idiot, or a communist
if you don't believe everything the gov't says you're a moron

500 lives are ok, but i wonder how many of you will be crying for more 'justice' the next time the US gets attacked, i have a real question for all of you war lovers,

do you value american lives over the lives of afghani people, and if so why? because the way I look at is people are people

and I saw this quote at a T stop, i don't know if it was exactly correct but

"Killing under the cover of war is still murder"
Albert E.

and the whole profile thing, i don't know what it would prove but
Joseph Parisi
I'm from NY, live in Boston now
I go to Northeastern, i work for a software company because they always hire idiots and 10 year olds and whatever else you said
I'm 20, i guess that makes me a stupid kid or something >>


If one civilian death is too many, then no war can ever be waged. I guess we should have let Hitler march across Europe unchallenged.

 

[bigdog1218]

<< OH PLEASE! Why don't we just hide under our beds while we're at it. My God please tell me you aren't that ignorant about world affairs. >>



well we all know that wars have cured so many things, might as well start another one, that almost makes sense



<< And name one thing the US has done to JUSTIFY 3,000 people dead in a terrorist attack >>



weren't you the one that said innocent people dies in wars, and didn't you also say that they started this war against america,
so when me, the moron, puts 2 and 2 together, it seems that you just justified it



<< The US helped save Afghanistan from Soviet occupation. >>



turned out great, not like there wasn't extreme poverty, or a gov't that killed its own people, or a gov't that supported terrorism, we really saved them, if you know anything the US gov't didn't care about afghanis at all, they only cared about stopping communism, and what difference was the taliban from any commmunist nation, no rights, no free speech, no voting,
what did the US actually save them from



<< We gave weapons to Iraq when they were fighting Iran right after Iran took the hostages in 79. >>



i can't believe i'm being called an idiot, really came back to bite us in the a$$ when we went to war with them, nothing like building up another lunatics army so he can take over other countries, and again if you knew anything,
iran and iraq are at war
soviet union supports iran
who do you think the US is going to support, hmmm, this is a tough one because you are a little slow so take your time
and its actually funny when you think of it because this was the second time we supported a gov't that was very similar to a communist nation,



<< The US did nothing to Bin Laden except make him a hero in the Afghan/Soviet war and save his homeland from Iraq. >>



wow, i never thought there were heros in wars where the country was worse off after the war, and the US didn't help rebuild the country or help bin laden because they were already used to stop the spread of communism

when are you people going to realize that anything done during the cold war was done to stop the spread of communism and there was no other motive behind them

 

[Texmaster]

bigdog1218 ToBeMe was right about you.

You are a nut without even basic knowledge in past history.

Take that Tonka Toy Computer of yours and go read some history books.

I think Jack said it best: Sell crazy someplace else...we're all stocked up here.

 

[Random Variable]

<< << And name one thing the US has done to JUSTIFY 3,000 people dead in a terrorist attack >>



weren't you the one that said innocent people dies in wars, and didn't you also say that they started this war against america,
so when me, the moron, puts 2 and 2 together, it seems that you just justified it >>


You have just crossed the threshold of idiocy. The killing of those 3,000 civilians was intentional. :disgust:

 

[ToBeMe]

bigdog1218;

Please explain how exactly you would go about solving the problem when someone comes and kills 3000 of you friends, lives in an area where international law means nothing since he already has numerous international warrants out for his arrest, and vows to continue killing more of your firends no matter what you say or do...........How do you "appease" someone whom has stated his only objective is to see the end of your way of life, or your life itself?????

You find it so easy to blame the U.S. for what happened also...............I suppose there is no possiblity that bin Laden is the one whom went bazerk and made the mistakes??? Why do you find it so easy to blame your own government and country over him????? Perhaps you really should reconsider your location if you truely believe all is the fault of the U.S.! Do you even reallize that the sole reason you are living here today is because of wars fought by our country in the past????? It appears you are actually the one whom is closed minded and has not considered all of which you claim.........

 

[burnedout]

<< And name one thing the US has done to JUSTIFY 3,000 people dead in a terrorist attack >>

weren't you the one that said innocent people dies in wars, and didn't you also say that they started this war against america,
so when me, the moron, puts 2 and 2 together, it seems that you just justified it

What is so damn difficult to comprehend about the events of September 11th. You are kidding, right? What don't you understand?

 

[bigdog1218]

<< Perhaps you really should reconsider your location if you truely believe all is the fault of the U.S.! Do you even reallize that the sole reason you are living here today is because of wars fought by our country in the past? >>



there it is again, if you don't agree with what the US is doing get out, and if you read my posts I believe that if we never interfered in the lives of these people in the first place that 3000 people might still be alive today, the US got involved with bin laden first, not the other way around

i in no way support terrorism or what bin laden did, but all killing is wrong, and i don't think i'm closed minded because i've seen the mistake the US has done in the past, and the only thing thats happening now is history repeating itself, we already lost this war



<< You have just crossed the threshold of idiocy. The killing of those 3,000 civilians was intentional >>



thats war buddy, innocent people die in war, you better get used to it because you might be next, we can't beat terrorism they already won because we did exactly what they wanted us to do, go attack a bunch of poor countries, so the next time they attack us they can just say its because of those innocent people that we killed

and intentional or not, killing innocent people is the same no matter how its done
now why isn't anybody answering my question,
are the innocent americans that died more important than the innocent afghanis that died?

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Perhaps you really should reconsider your location if you truely believe all is the fault of the U.S.! Do you even reallize that the sole reason you are living here today is because of wars fought by our country in the past? >>



there it is again, if you don't agree with what the US is doing get out, and if you read my posts I believe that if we never interfered in the lives of these people in the first place that 3000 people might still be alive today, the US got involved with bin laden first, not the other way around

i in no way support terrorism or what bin laden did, but all killing is wrong, and i don't think i'm closed minded because i've seen the mistake the US has done in the past, and the only thing thats happening now is history repeating itself, we already lost this war



<< You have just crossed the threshold of idiocy. The killing of those 3,000 civilians was intentional >>



thats war buddy, innocent people die in war, you better get used to it because you might be next, we can't beat terrorism they already won because we did exactly what they wanted us to do, go attack a bunch of poor countries, so the next time they attack us they can just say its because of those innocent people that we killed

and intentional or not, killing innocent people is the same no matter how its done
now why isn't anybody answering my question,
are the innocent americans that died more important than the innocent afghanis that died? >>



In one case, innocent civilians were TARGETED. In the other, all due care was taken to AVOID killing innocent civilians. That you can't fathom the difference only shows how dense you are. But then, judging by your grasp of history, this is no suprise at all.

 

[Random Variable]

And of course American civilians are not somehow more important than Afghani civilians. But that is not even what this argument/debate is about.

 

[bigdog1218]

<< You are a nut without even basic knowledge in past history. >>



yeah i don't know whats wrong with me, i mean it can't be true that the US gov't did horrible things then lied about them, whatever they say the truth is must be the truth sorry, i guess i should stop thinking for myself and jump on the band wagon




<< In one case, innocent civilians were TARGETED. In the other, all due care was taken to AVOID killing innocent civilians >>



ok, but did innocent civilians die in both cases? yes, so there is no difference no matter how much you want there to be
because those afghani lives could have been avoided if we never went there


and amusedone i point you to this, it was in one of my previous posts but you obviously don't read them

"Killing under the cover of war is still murder"
Albert E.



<< And of course American civilians are not somehow more important than Afghani civilians >>


thank you for answering my question, but if thats true,
why do Americans get revenge, but Afganis don't?

don't tell me its because we were targeted, i don't understand how you people think, but they just lost a bunch of people that did nothing to any of you, and it doesn't matter if it was an accident or whatever you call it

 

[Jzero]

<< ok, but did innocent civilians die in both cases? yes, so there is no difference no matter how much you want there to be
because those afghani lives could have been avoided if we never went there >>


The lives of those Afghans could have been saved had the US never been attacked, and had their own gov't not used them as human shields, as well.



<< are american lives worth more than afghani lives, and if yes why >>


If you can only think in binarisms, then think of it this way:
Those 600 Afghans who died made a sacrifice to help restore their nation to its former glory.
It doesn't matter if 0 or 1M Afghans died at the hands of Americans. Insane fundy terrorists would just find some OTHER excuse to exist.



<< "Killing under the cover of war is still murder"
Albert E. >>


I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. An individual can be acquitted on a murder charge if he did it in self-defense.
If I poke you in the ribs and you try to kill me and I kill you in self defense....at the end of the day, you're nuts for trying to kill me for a very weak reason.



<< why do Americans get revenge, but Afganis don't? >>


You really don't understand the situation?
This is not America v. Afghanistan, this is America v. and unlawful despotic government. The Afghan civilians that were killed most likely despised the Taliban rule. Why would they want revenge on America?

 

[ToBeMe]

bigdog1218

Yes..........you've said all of that before.........now, why not answer the questions posed to you????? You're great at spewing why nobody should die and why it's all the U.S.'s fault...................but can't answer any questions as to why or what you propose would be a better solution!!! You also have a problem with facts..........tell me, why is it always the fault of the U.S.?????? bin Laden can do no wrong?????

Yes, you are correct, we backed him and supported him in a war against the Soviets.............you have one thing wrong though...........he came to us asking for help, and we were abliged to help him since we are against Communisum and Afghanistan was not to pleased at the thought either! So, we back him and give him everything he wants including training and weapons................the war ends, and he wants more! He continued making demands and the U.S. was not only under pressure to halt military support, but also saw the man we once helped heading more and more toward creating a terrorist faction! Yes we cut off his support...............not Afghanistans support....bin Laden's! Our mistake was not taking him out then!

Besides, your reasoning is flawed! bin Laden does not mention the fact that he was trained by us or that we cut him off from support...........he pulls any reason, any "hotspot" at the time out of the air and uses that as his reasoning for terrorism!!! One of his last reasons was the U.S. troops in Saudi..............well, guess what.........the Saudi government asked us there in '90 to help protect them and made an agreement to allow us to stay...........there has been some questions since 9/11 as to whether the Saudis would now ask us to leave, but, to date, they have not!

Your other main point was about feeling that people were telling you to leave the U.S. because you didn't agree............read.......I didn't say that! I stated that perhaps you should ask yourself if you WANT to stay since you have such ill feeling toward the U.S. Government and their Wars down through history...............I mean, I know if I felt that way, I would have a hard time staying in that country............

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< "Killing under the cover of war is still murder" >>


It is obvious to me you've gotten most of your knowledge off the same truckstop wall that you got that little gem. Either that or the curriculum at Northeastern needs an extensive overhaul. Sorry to tell you my friend your version of truth may play well at some liberal New Engalnd college or at your NAMBLA meetings, but it doesn't play well in the real world.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< why do Americans get revenge, but Afganis don't? >>


Why don't you go ask them if they want it!:Q Here's a clue..............if these numbers are correct, the Taliban and al Quaeda were responsible for more Afghani deaths than that on an annual basis!:Q Why not ask instead if they want revenge upon the Taliban and al Quaeda??????? Oh wait..........they were already doing that to captured Taliban and al Quaeda prisoners.................Don't know about you, but, the last several pieces I read, and intervies I saw were of Afghani people saying they realized there would be civilian casualties but the fact that the Taliban and al Quaeda would be wiped out made it worth it! Not all were like this of course, but, many were............

 

[Amused]

<<

<< In one case, innocent civilians were TARGETED. In the other, all due care was taken to AVOID killing innocent civilians >>



ok, but did innocent civilians die in both cases? yes, so there is no difference no matter how much you want there to be
because those afghani lives could have been avoided if we never went there


and amusedone i point you to this, it was in one of my previous posts but you obviously don't read them

"Killing under the cover of war is still murder"
Albert E. >>



Murder requires intent. The US did NOT intend to kill civilians and took all due care to avoid hurting them.

You know, it amazes me. The liberal crybabies were bitching and moaning about the US not doing anything about the Taliban for 6 years or so. Then, when we finally do, they bitch and whine some more.

The persons responsible for the civilian deaths in Afghanistan are the Taliban. Had they not been a bunch of oppressive, terroristic f'cks, we wouldn't have had to go in and forcibly remove them... and no civilians would have been hurt.

BTW, BigDog, who is responsible for the Branch Davidian deaths? I'm just asking, because the liberals always say it's their own fault and never blame the government.

Kind of a double standard, no?

 

[Rogue]

Alright, I can't take this anymore. WTF is wrong with you man? Every day in this world people die for far less reason than those caused by the ravages of war. Let me pose this question to you? Is someone who died instantly by a 2000 pound bomb somehow more important than someone who died slowly in a burning car as a result of a drunk driver? You sit idly by passing judgement on who died for what reason and the truth is, it doesn't matter in the end. People the world over will die today, many for reasons not connected to anything as noble as trying to free a war ravaged country from the tyrannical oppression of a government that has killed more of it's own people than every single shot fired or bomb dropped since October. Yet, you sit idly by at your computer, plying your pitiful trade and passing judgement on the people that make decisions in the world that will NEVER affect you. You know nothing of the world other than your pitiful, "Go to work, earn money, drive a nice car, drink clean water" existence. Do the world a favor, don't speak of something you will NEVER understand, just know that death happens because we are human and that in the end, none of it really matters.