Anyone running a "balanced" setup? I don't understand the advantage

[alfa147x]

After spending some time on Head-Fi and HeadRoom Audio I've noticed a few people who rewire their headphones to be used with balanced amps. Can someone explain why using 4 wires split into two connectors is better than using 3 or 4 wires in one connector? Is it because the ground / return is separated?

Would this even produce an audible difference that would make the cost worth while?

 

[alcoholbob]

To eliminate hum/hiss if you have an electrical issue yeah.

 

[uhohs]

less noise (maybe)
moar power

 

[monkey333]

Not sure if this is related to the OP, but I slapped a set of Sony headphones into my htpc, if for nothing else than when the wife falls asleep whilst watching. Believe me, $$$$ well spent, and I'm no headphone aficionado...

 

[alfa147x]

Less noise? Hmm. I don't have a noise problem with my current setup. If that's the only benefit then I don't don't need an upgrade.
The Schiit Lyr does "6 watts into 32 ohms" and it's not balanced. That's a ton of power!

Not sure if this is related to the OP, but I slapped a set of Sony headphones into my htpc, if for nothing else than when the wife falls asleep whilst watching. Believe me, $$$$ well spent, and I'm no headphone aficionado...

Haha. Yeah. I'm watching Midnight in Paris with my HD650s

 

[bebopulation]

On the topic of excess noise, don't spend too much time on Head-Fi or at least take everything with a grain of salt. A lot of people, "audiophiles" included, dump a ton of money on hardware, mods, etc., to no actual effect due to many, many variables associated with the long journey of Source -> Brain. Just make sure you've done your homework before investing in $400 cables.

This guy's got a great blog if you're interested and have a lot of spare time. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/
Interestingly, he was banned from head-fi for providing negative reviews on popular products and calling out top members for failing at blind tests. See his DAC listening challenge

 

[darkswordsman17]

On the topic of excess noise, don't spend too much time on Head-Fi or at least take everything with a grain of salt. A lot of people, "audiophiles" included, dump a ton of money on hardware, mods, etc., to no actual effect due to many, many variables associated with the long journey of Source -> Brain. Just make sure you've done your homework before investing in $400 cables.

This guy's got a great blog if you're interested and have a lot of spare time. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/
Interestingly, he was banned from head-fi for providing negative reviews on popular products and calling out top members for failing at blind tests. See his DAC listening challenge

Agreed. Head-Fi is ok, but there's a lot of BS stuff that gets touted. Its sad how much people shun any scientific reasoning there, I believe that type of thinking has actually held back audio for decades. I don't even want to go and read some of the stuff I posted on there as I'm sure I'd groan at how much I bought into silly tripe and flowery language.

I was also going to mention nwavguy. He said he's going to do articles specifically about balanced setups, so that should prove interesting.

 

[Zorander]

In a balanced (XLR) set-up, both the positive and negative (live and neutral, to put them differently) terminals are actively and individually driven. In a typical TRS set-up, only the positive/live terminal is driven, with the negative/neutral end connected to ground. Besides the increased headroom and the inherent noise rejection of balanced connection, there is supposedly also increased slew rate.

I'd love to upgrade to a balanced amp someday (rocking a Graham Slee Solo Ultra Linear now) but the cost and the increased space requirement have been a deterrent for me.

 

[uhohs]

one of the reasons nwavguy was banned from head-fi and some other forums was for being unable to hold a civil debate/discussion while his ego floated in the stratosphere.

I agree with head-fi/audiophila being filled with snake-oil and pseudo-science.

 

[alfa147x]

Yeah most of it is snake oil. A whole thread devoted to different USB cables and how they change the sound from a DAC is laughable. But just like any other forum they have their high and low points. You learn to take what makes sense and leave the trash behind

I was asking about balanced setups because Schiit audio is releasing a balanced Amp and DAC soon. I have their current DAC and amp (Valhalla) and really like their products. Got me considering rewiring my headphones for a balanced set up.

 

[Howard]

one of the reasons nwavguy was banned from head-fi and some other forums was for being unable to hold a civil debate/discussion while his ego floated in the stratosphere.

I agree with head-fi/audiophila being filled with snake-oil and pseudo-science.

I didn't read the relevant threads but nwavguy seems to be a fairly reasonable guy, and it's undeniable that certain vendors are "protected" at head-fi.

FWIW I don't believe a balanced connection for headphones has any benefit over single-ended. Also, you need 6 wires for balanced stereo (headphones), not 4.

 

[alfa147x]

I didn't read the relevant threads but nwavguy seems to be a fairly reasonable guy, and it's undeniable that certain vendors are "protected" at head-fi.

FWIW I don't believe a balanced connection for headphones has any benefit over single-ended. Also, you need 6 wires for balanced stereo (headphones), not 4.

The 3rd one goes to the shielding? Is that done on single-ended cables as well?

 

[Modelworks]

I'll try to keep this simple, it all has to do with power transfer. Impedance can be a tough concept to grasp and it can be a very technical one. Basically if you have a wire that is terminated with an impedance of 50 ohms and you connect it to a cable with an impedance of 75 ohms the signal transfer is going to be less than ideal, you can lose power, the bandwidth of the signal will change eliminating or adding frequencies not present before. The thing is that just re-wiring headphones isn't an easy way to alter impedance. Impedance on wiring can change if you tie a knot in the wire, if you place two wires too close together or if you have the wire too long. It really isn't as simple as saying, put 4 wires on headphones and now they are balanced. You would need to do the wiring and put some test signals through the wiring while viewing the output on an oscilloscope looking for distortions in the wave, then adjusting the cables , jacks, etc accordingly.

This is why you can buy balanced cables with XLR jacks but you don't see many people making their own. The reason is that just using an XLR jack and wire doesn't make it balanced, you have to consider the wire used, the insulation, the length, and test it to make sure it is balanced.

 

[alfa147x]

I'll try to keep this simple, it all has to do with power transfer. Impedance can be a tough concept to grasp and it can be a very technical one. Basically if you have a wire that is terminated with an impedance of 50 ohms and you connect it to a cable with an impedance of 75 ohms the signal transfer is going to be less than ideal, you can lose power, the bandwidth of the signal will change eliminating or adding frequencies not present before. The thing is that just re-wiring headphones isn't an easy way to alter impedance. Impedance on wiring can change if you tie a know in the wire, if you place two wires too close together or if you have the wire too long. It really isn't as simple as saying, put 4 wires on headphones and now they are balanced. You would need to do the wiring and put some test signals through the wiring while viewing the output on an oscilloscope looking for distortions in the wave, then adjusting the cables , jacks, etc accordingly.

This is why you can buy balanced cables with XLR jacks but you don't see many people making their own. The reason is that just using an XLR jack and wire doesn't make it balanced, you have to consider the wire used, the insulation, the length, and test it to make sure it is balanced.

Ah that does makes sense. Now after all of that. Is it a worth while upgrade? Or mostly a waste of money and time?

 

[uhohs]

I didn't read the relevant threads but nwavguy seems to be a fairly reasonable guy, and it's undeniable that certain vendors are "protected" at head-fi.

Maybe he's toned it down and learned to behave since, but he had no qualms with resorting to personal attacks and insults when talking to Ti Kan of amb.org

from this thread

NwAvGuy wrote: no offense, but your comments, design choices, etc. demonstrate you can't even properly calculate maximum output power. So I suspect you're even less able to calculate loop stability, phase margin, or other things required to make the AD8397 stable.

There's no way the Mini3 can produce anywhere close to 300 mW into 33 ohms. If you believe it can, you don't understand audio engineering enough to be doing this.

AMB honestly seems to lack an understanding of some of the issues being discussed in this thread. Voltage dividers are really simple and really basic. His use of the current through the R5 output resistor demonstrates he doesn't understand how audio circuits work.

I never said he has "no idea" what he's doing. Plenty of DIY'ers make stuff they get to work reasonably well without really understanding a lot of the engineering behind the scenes. But that doesn't make them "right" and 100+ years of established engineering wrong.

If AMB has trouble properly calculating something close to the correct maximum voltage and power output of the Mini3, or even how a simple 2 resistor voltage divider works, that doesn't reflect well on his engineering knowledge. Voltage dividers are literally child's play compared to the complex math, imaginary numbers, etc. required to properly analyze op amp stability. So I stand by my earlier statement.

from another thread:

I could be more polite about it, and perhaps I should. But boring stuff doesn't seem to get read these days.

 

[Howard]

Are his statements factual? If they are, then he's being a dick, but sometimes you have to be outrageous to be noticed (and this sort of seems like a public service).

If they aren't, well, I doubt that since he seems to have a strong technical background, but... depending on the culture, might've been a justified ban.

 

[Howard]

The 3rd one goes to the shielding? Is that done on single-ended cables as well?

Yes, the third wire is strictly for shielding.

In single-ended connections, the shield typically also serves as the return circuit ("ground"), so it's not the same.

 

[uhohs]

Are his statements factual? If they are, then he's being a dick, but sometimes you have to be outrageous to be noticed (and this sort of seems like a public service).

If they aren't, well, I doubt that since he seems to have a strong technical background, but... depending on the culture, might've been a justified ban.

The guy that runs amb.org has a strong technical background as well and is responsible for many diy audio projects/designs. Regardless of who was wrong or right, the crux of the issue was that nwavguy was unable to converse and discuss without being an arrogant douche.

 

[Howard]

The guy that runs amb.org has a strong technical background

Meaning that nwavguy's accusations were false?

 

[Born2bwire]

After spending some time on Head-Fi and HeadRoom Audio I've noticed a few people who rewire their headphones to be used with balanced amps. Can someone explain why using 4 wires split into two connectors is better than using 3 or 4 wires in one connector? Is it because the ground / return is separated?

Would this even produce an audible difference that would make the cost worth while?

Honestly, I think it does, but in no way does it justify the added costs and I've got a balanced setup. Everything has been pretty much well covered in this thread already but I would mention that with headphones, the design for the cables are terrible. A balanced setup addresses this, among other things, because it provides a true shield and it gives separate ground references for each channel. So the end result is that you get better noise suppression, lower crosstalk, and more power delivered. For what it's worth though, the terrible engineering in cables and connectors really does not matter with audio because the frequencies are extremely low. So people can get away with a lot of things (which is rather evident in some of the headphone amps that we came across in the early days). But the improvements that you get when going to a balanced setup, if audible, are minor in my opinion. I think when it comes to headphones, the biggest thing is the headphone itself because designing a headphone has a lot to do about compromises and what audio profile that you are trying to get. It's not the same as with speakers because the headphones are near-field devices, they are not designed to produce a flat frequency response but to produce a perceived flat frequency response.

Maybe he's toned it down and learned to behave since, but he had no qualms with resorting to personal attacks and insults when talking to Ti Kan of amb.org

from this thread

Christ, what an ass. AMB and Linux_works (if that's still the same guy I'm thinking about) are pretty on the ball from what I remember. I haven't been around Head-Fi much in a long time but it would be pretty amusing if this nwavguy locked horns with Kevin Gilmore.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Maybe he's toned it down and learned to behave since, but he had no qualms with resorting to personal attacks and insults when talking to Ti Kan of amb.org

from this thread








from another thread:

Oh, I strongly recommend you read that thread from the start. They initiated "personal attacks" (if those are personal attacks, then absolutely what was posted on page one are personal attacks towards him) before he even posted there. His first post in that thread was not aggressive at all. He responded in an orderly manner and then AMB gave up and got pissy over having his "expertise" questioned. Then linux-works tried to attack him instead of addressing the actual content of his posts (I'm wondering if he can since all he could come up with was to test it at max volume, which NwAvGuy explained is because he'd rather test at realistic volume scenarios and explained that will actually make the noise measurements worse).

In short, it came off as AMB got criticized, isn't used to being criticized by someone that actually knows what they're talking about and actually backs up their claims, possibly couldn't actually address the criticism and so just ran off.

I haven't read exactly what was posted by him on Head-Fi, but when it comes to his criticisms he has backed them up with evidence from what I've seen, whereas the "other side" just tries to make straw man arguments ("what have you designed") and other garbage without actually addressing the specific content of his posts (and more often than not seem incapable of addressing the technical aspects, which is pretty messed up since some of them are the designers/engineers of the products or claim to be electrical engineers).

I've seen plenty of threads get out of hand on Head-Fi and frankly, I highly doubt the animosity was started by him.

Considering that the people responded as poorly if not worse (I have seen some of the feedback to his posts on there), I'm not sure how you can criticize him when he's raising valid points that get ignored.

Are his statements factual? If they are, then he's being a dick, but sometimes you have to be outrageous to be noticed (and this sort of seems like a public service).

If they aren't, well, I doubt that since he seems to have a strong technical background, but... depending on the culture, might've been a justified ban.

Agreed.

Personally, I don't know what being nice has to do with anything when it comes to things you can actually prove/verify. Being nice does not make you any less wrong. What's the phrase about roads being paved with good intentions?

Nowhere did I see AMB dispute his specific claims with actual evidence, and NwAvGuy got attacked over his measurements while AMB got a free pass? NwAvGuy actually explained a lot and still was being attacked and instead of just giving up like AMB had, continued to post. Frankly, they have some of the thinnest skin I've seen and are outright hypocrites. Linux-works especially is worse, as he just keeps harping about NwAvGuy's credentials when he had already demonstrated sufficient technical knowledge to be worthy of discussion, whereas Linux-works had done literally nothing to support why he was even involved in the discussion.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Honestly, I think it does, but in no way does it justify the added costs and I've got a balanced setup. Everything has been pretty much well covered in this thread already but I would mention that with headphones, the design for the cables are terrible. A balanced setup addresses this, among other things, because it provides a true shield and it gives separate ground references for each channel. So the end result is that you get better noise suppression, lower crosstalk, and more power delivered. For what it's worth though, the terrible engineering in cables and connectors really does not matter with audio because the frequencies are extremely low. So people can get away with a lot of things (which is rather evident in some of the headphone amps that we came across in the early days). But the improvements that you get when going to a balanced setup, if audible, are minor in my opinion. I think when it comes to headphones, the biggest thing is the headphone itself because designing a headphone has a lot to do about compromises and what audio profile that you are trying to get. It's not the same as with speakers because the headphones are near-field devices, they are not designed to produce a flat frequency response but to produce a perceived flat frequency response.



Christ, what an ass. AMB and Linux_works (if that's still the same guy I'm thinking about) are pretty on the ball from what I remember. I haven't been around Head-Fi much in a long time but it would be pretty amusing if this nwavguy locked horns with Kevin Gilmore.

Funny you bring that up. From what I've seen Kevin was more abrasive and worse than NwAvGuy has been (I recall seeing some posts where Kevin was trashing Ray Samuels and his products and heh they weren't very polite; note the posts of his were on a different site I can't recall where, it was like a **** [er ok, I guess t f n n gets censored] for Head-Fi of a bunch of people that got sick of Head-Fi).

Fact is, if they know what they're talking about and can back it up, its idiotic to dismiss them just because they're not nice. They're often not nice because of the stupid hivemind that Head-Fi and other places cultivate.

 

[Born2bwire]

Funny you bring that up. From what I've seen Kevin was more abrasive and worse than NwAvGuy has been (I recall seeing some posts where Kevin was trashing Ray Samuels and his products and heh they weren't very polite; note the posts of his were on a different site I can't recall where, it was like a **** [er ok, I guess t f n n gets censored] for Head-Fi of a bunch of people that got sick of Head-Fi).

Fact is, if they know what they're talking about and can back it up, its idiotic to dismiss them just because they're not nice. They're often not nice because of the stupid hivemind that Head-Fi and other places cultivate.

Kevin's a funny guy, I've met him and Ray Samuels on a few occasions. I remember someone describing Kevin as a troll (like the mythical troll not internet troll) as a friendly dig. I've met Ray a lot actually. Ray's a great guy though I think his products are not the most technically accomplished and a bit overpriced. But they are very professionally assembled and put together (which again, I've seen some really shady assembly procedures by some manufacturers).

But I would still side with AMB from my reading of that discussion and this is something that I haven't heard about before since I haven't been very active on Head-fi for a few years. I'm not interested in talking about this any further since this is way off-topic though.

 

[alfa147x]

So Schiit just announced a balanced amp and DAC.
MJOLNIR Amp link
GUNGNIR DAC link

Say I was considering upgrading to a balanced setup on 2 of my headphones. Would it be stupid to continue to use my BIFROST DAC (Link) and just feed that into the balanced amp?

I doubt I'm going to upgrade but just pondering how I would go about it

 

[uhohs]

So, what’s the catch? Only this: Mjolnir is ONLY a balanced amp. There are no single-ended outputs. Welcome to the wonders of cross-shunt push-pull topologies.

ouch :~

edit: hm, though you could make a balanced to single end adapter/cable.