Anyone know what Scoliosis Thoracalis is?

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: eits
that's a loaded question. disc integrity is continuously lost upon motion from the second decade of life (ages 10-19). however, chiropractic improves nutrition imbibition and proper motion to the disc, which improves health of the disc. dehydrated/malnourished discs get worse at a much faster rate than if they're treated with chiropractic adjustments.

also, go back and read the edit i made to the post... i added something at the bottom you probably missed.

Okay, so it was a little loaded. And yes, there are definitely problems with how some chiropractors handle patients. Like I said... quacks on both sides of the spectrum. I still think scoliosis is an awfully "gray" area as far as chiropractic medicine is concerned. And I guess I'll leave it at that. I have enough knowledge of the human body to be critical of what people tell me but I'm certainly not a doctor. As far as improving spinal health goes... that may be, but I'm not going to automatically discount the stress that chiropractics put on the spine just to make it better. Especially when regular treatment is necessary for maintenance.

 

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
that's a loaded question. disc integrity is continuously lost upon motion from the second decade of life (ages 10-19). however, chiropractic improves nutrition imbibition and proper motion to the disc, which improves health of the disc. dehydrated/malnourished discs get worse at a much faster rate than if they're treated with chiropractic adjustments.

also, go back and read the edit i made to the post... i added something at the bottom you probably missed.

Okay, so it was a little loaded. And yes, there are definitely problems with how some chiropractors handle patients. Like I said... quacks on both sides of the spectrum. I still think scoliosis is an awfully "gray" area as far as chiropractic medicine is concerned. And I guess I'll leave it at that. I have enough knowledge of the human body to be critical of what people tell me but I'm certainly not a doctor. As far as improving spinal health goes... that may be, but I'm not going to automatically discount the stress that chiropractics put on the spine just to make it better. Especially when regular treatment is necessary for maintenance.

Again, you apparently know little of modern-day chiropractic medicine if you still believe this. Go do some research and look into the profession as it stands today, you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
that's a loaded question. disc integrity is continuously lost upon motion from the second decade of life (ages 10-19). however, chiropractic improves nutrition imbibition and proper motion to the disc, which improves health of the disc. dehydrated/malnourished discs get worse at a much faster rate than if they're treated with chiropractic adjustments.

also, go back and read the edit i made to the post... i added something at the bottom you probably missed.

Okay, so it was a little loaded. And yes, there are definitely problems with how some chiropractors handle patients. Like I said... quacks on both sides of the spectrum. I still think scoliosis is an awfully "gray" area as far as chiropractic medicine is concerned. And I guess I'll leave it at that. I have enough knowledge of the human body to be critical of what people tell me but I'm certainly not a doctor. As far as improving spinal health goes... that may be, but I'm not going to automatically discount the stress that chiropractics put on the spine just to make it better. Especially when regular treatment is necessary for maintenance.

you would have a valid point only if the chiropractor adjusts segments that don't need to be adjusted. whenever a chiropractor adjusts a motion segment, it's a specific adjustment. the popping sound (audible/cavitation) you hear on an adjustment isn't the disc at all... it's the synovium contained within the facet capsule. the reason why the facet fixation is important to the disc's health is because if the facet doesn't move how it should, the disc doesn't either.

when the disc doesn't move how it should, it ends up dehydrated and malnourished. that's why whenever you correct the fixation, you restore proper motion to the disc so it will receive proper nutrients and water through imbibition (your disc "drinks" water and nutrients through it's superior and inferior margins... that's why it's called imbibition).

adjusting the facet joints is crucial to proper disc health. proper disc health is crucial to treating pain (whether it's in your back or any other region of the body... it's all connected) and prevention of future back problems.

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: LordMaul
*ahem* Just thought I might stop you there, since I've seen you post the same comment a few times, and mention that you're quite right -- but only because your spine should never be perfectly straight (vertically). Your spine has specific curvatures that need to be maintained and a "perfectly straight" (or even mostly straight) spine is actually a serious problem.

You're also arguing with just enough knowledge to not sound completely lost, but it's obvious you have little real experience or education on this subject. Oh, and did I mention that you're arguing with an educated member of the medical community specializing in this exact area of medicine? Eits is the wrong guy for you to argue with.

I'm well aware of what scoliosis is and I know the spine isn't suppose to be "perfectly straight". Your comment was unnecessary as we all know what I meant.

As for eits being part of the medical community, I knew that much, I don't know his particular focus, but that is irrelevant. His knowledge on the topic OBVIOUSLY exceeds my own. However, his assertion that the OP should just "see a chiropractor" before even consulting with his doctor was absurd and irresponsible. ESPECIALLY for someone in the medical community.

eits just said he is appalled at how many chiropractors don't follow a standard protocol. Well how irresponsible is it to just send someone to a chiropractor when you haven't diagnosed them yourself?

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Again, you apparently know little of modern-day chiropractic medicine if you still believe this. Go do some research and look into the profession as it stands today, you may be pleasantly surprised.

You apparently don't know many people who suffer from spinal problems such as irregular curvature of the neck, lower back, slipped or bulging discs, etc, etc. Because I know for a fact that many of these people require regular treatment or they slowly lose mobility, loss of sensation or experience other issues. Maybe there ARE cases where chiropractics can permanently address some issues. But it can't do that for ALL things.

Again, my original point here was lost. I'm not trying to say you should completely disregard chiropractic care. My problem is that some people simply jump to the conclusion that it is the ONLY option.

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: eits
you would have a valid point only if the chiropractor adjusts segments that don't need to be adjusted. whenever a chiropractor adjusts a motion segment, it's a specific adjustment. the popping sound (audible/cavitation) you hear on an adjustment isn't the disc at all... it's the synovium contained within the facet capsule. the reason why the facet fixation is important to the disc's health is because if the facet doesn't move how it should, the disc doesn't either.

when the disc doesn't move how it should, it ends up dehydrated and malnourished. that's why whenever you correct the fixation, you restore proper motion to the disc so it will receive proper nutrients and water through imbibition (your disc "drinks" water and nutrients through it's superior and inferior margins... that's why it's called imbibition).

adjusting the facet joints is crucial to proper disc health. proper disc health is crucial to treating pain (whether it's in your back or any other region of the body... it's all connected) and prevention of future back problems.

This was probably one of the most educational posts I have ever read on ATOT... ever.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: LordMaul
*ahem* Just thought I might stop you there, since I've seen you post the same comment a few times, and mention that you're quite right -- but only because your spine should never be perfectly straight (vertically). Your spine has specific curvatures that need to be maintained and a "perfectly straight" (or even mostly straight) spine is actually a serious problem.

You're also arguing with just enough knowledge to not sound completely lost, but it's obvious you have little real experience or education on this subject. Oh, and did I mention that you're arguing with an educated member of the medical community specializing in this exact area of medicine? Eits is the wrong guy for you to argue with.

I'm well aware of what scoliosis is and I know the spine isn't suppose to be "perfectly straight". Your comment was unnecessary as we all know what I meant.

As for eits being part of the medical community, I knew that much, I don't know his particular focus, but that is irrelevant. His knowledge on the topic OBVIOUSLY exceeds my own. However, his assertion that the OP should just "see a chiropractor" before even consulting with his doctor was absurd and irresponsible. ESPECIALLY for someone in the medical community.

eits just said he is appalled at how many chiropractors don't follow a standard protocol. Well how irresponsible is it to just send someone to a chiropractor when you haven't diagnosed them yourself?

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Again, you apparently know little of modern-day chiropractic medicine if you still believe this. Go do some research and look into the profession as it stands today, you may be pleasantly surprised.

You apparently don't know many people who suffer from spinal problems such as irregular curvature of the neck, lower back, slipped or bulging discs, etc, etc. Because I know for a fact that many of these people require regular treatment or they slowly lose mobility, loss of sensation or experience other issues. Maybe there ARE cases where chiropractics can permanently address some issues. But it can't do that for ALL things.

Again, my original point here was lost. I'm not trying to say you should completely disregard chiropractic care. My problem is that some people simply jump to the conclusion that it is the ONLY option.

many medical doctors do the same thing... i know my e.n.t. did whenever he took a culture from my nose and gave me a prescription without even having enough time to incubate and identify the culture. it happens in all fields... it just sucks when it happens to chiropractors because we're viewed under a microscope because of all the propaganda and whatnot from the past.

the last two things i've bolded are kinda at odds against each other. the fact is that there are things chiropractors do that medical doctors can't and vice versa. for scoliosis (that isn't severe enough for surgery), a chiropractor is the best option. for a bacterial infection or prescription for heart medication or topical ointments for skin diseases, medical doctors are the people to see. you don't take your bmw to get the a/c checked out at a tire shop...

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
you would have a valid point only if the chiropractor adjusts segments that don't need to be adjusted. whenever a chiropractor adjusts a motion segment, it's a specific adjustment. the popping sound (audible/cavitation) you hear on an adjustment isn't the disc at all... it's the synovium contained within the facet capsule. the reason why the facet fixation is important to the disc's health is because if the facet doesn't move how it should, the disc doesn't either.

when the disc doesn't move how it should, it ends up dehydrated and malnourished. that's why whenever you correct the fixation, you restore proper motion to the disc so it will receive proper nutrients and water through imbibition (your disc "drinks" water and nutrients through it's superior and inferior margins... that's why it's called imbibition).

adjusting the facet joints is crucial to proper disc health. proper disc health is crucial to treating pain (whether it's in your back or any other region of the body... it's all connected) and prevention of future back problems.

This was probably one of the most educational posts I have ever read on ATOT... ever.

why, thank you i tried my best to explain it so you could understand it... wasn't sure how well i did.

edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: eits
many medical doctors do the same thing... i know my e.n.t. did whenever he took a culture from my nose and gave me a prescription without even having enough time to incubate and identify the culture. it happens in all fields... it just sucks when it happens to chiropractors because we're viewed under a microscope because of all the propaganda and whatnot from the past.

Which is why I mentioned before that people need to be more careful. Not everyone is necessarily looking out for you. The problem is that most people don't have enough information to help themselves. If I knew that my doctor was writing me prescriptions without even thoroughly identifying what the problem was I'd throw a fit and find a new doctor.

Originally posted by: eits
why, thank you i tried my best to explain it so you could understand it... wasn't sure how well i did.

I understood fine. But I'd argue that, while I'm not a doctor, I know a lot more about the human body than the average ATOTer. I didn't just walk in here to start tooting my own horn with the intention to brush off your field. Hardly the case, and I hope it was obvious that I'm somewhat open-minded about it, in spite of the crazies that the media sensationalizes. That said, it's fun to play devil's advocate, and I definitely learned something in the process.

As long as I didn't come across as stubborn moron I think I succeeded in making my point.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
many medical doctors do the same thing... i know my e.n.t. did whenever he took a culture from my nose and gave me a prescription without even having enough time to incubate and identify the culture. it happens in all fields... it just sucks when it happens to chiropractors because we're viewed under a microscope because of all the propaganda and whatnot from the past.

Which is why I mentioned before that people need to be more careful. Not everyone is necessarily looking out for you. The problem is that most people don't have enough information to help themselves. If I knew that my doctor was writing me prescriptions without even thoroughly identifying what the problem was I'd throw a fit and find a new doctor.

Originally posted by: eits
why, thank you i tried my best to explain it so you could understand it... wasn't sure how well i did.

I understood fine. But I'd argue that, while I'm not a doctor, I know a lot more about the human body than the average ATOTer. I didn't just walk in here to start tooting my own horn with the intention to brush off your field. Hardly the case, and I hope it was obvious that I'm somewhat open-minded about it, in spite of the crazies that the media sensationalizes. That said, it's fun to play devil's advocate, and I definitely learned something in the process.

As long as I didn't come across as stubborn moron I think I succeeded in making my point.

it's cool i play devil's advocate at church all the time in order to try and reaffirm my faith and get a better understanding of things.

i do it at school, too, to better understand and to find answers to questions that i'll probably be asked somewhere down the line.

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: eits
edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

I actually recently graduated with my B.S. in Kinesiology. Anatomy, Biomechanics, Human Phys, Injury Prevention and related courses were standard fare. I also had a cadaver lab, but not nearly as hands on as I'm sure yours is. I've toyed with going back to school for Physical Therapy... Nursing wouldn't be too hard either. Medical school is a little ambitious for me though. The majority of what I've taken would definitely help me out but I just don't think it's my thing.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

I actually recently graduated with my B.S. in Kinesiology. Anatomy, Biomechanics, Human Phys, Injury Prevention and related courses were standard fare. I also had a cadaver lab, but not nearly as hands on as I'm sure yours is. I've toyed with going back to school for Physical Therapy... Nursing wouldn't be too hard either. Medical school is a little ambitious for me though. The majority of what I've taken would definitely help me out but I just don't think it's my thing.

if you think you can make it through nursing school, you can make it through med school. go for it, man (that is, if you think that's what you're meant to do in life).

 

[FrontlineWarrior]

Originally posted by: eits
go see a chiropractor. they're the best at treating and reversing scoliosis. depending on how bad you have scoliosis, there's a chance that a chiropractor can get rid of the scoliosis. the reason it's important to treat scoliosis is because if it goes untreated, it gets worse and can affect your bodily functions, heart rate, and breathing... it also can cause your back muscles to hurt from doing normal, everyday things. it won't kill you, but you're MUCH better off without it. after your scoliosis is gone, you'll probably have to come back to the chiropractor's office every month or two just to keep it in check... your body will, more than likely, naturally want to go back to having scoliosis and to keep that from happening, you gotta keep an eye on it.

chiropractors can't do anything for scoliosis. go see an orthopedic surgeon!

 

[Mark R]

Ah. Here you go. Lots of info from a reputable source, and it's got pictures too.

Link

I appreciate it's a link from a children's hospital - but that's because most scoliosis affects children and adolescents. However, the causes/treatments are the same as when it occurs in early adulthood (save for the fact that it's less likely to be a problem with the spine forming properly, or some other joint / muscle disease).

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: FrontlineWarrior

Originally posted by: eits
go see a chiropractor. they're the best at treating and reversing scoliosis. depending on how bad you have scoliosis, there's a chance that a chiropractor can get rid of the scoliosis. the reason it's important to treat scoliosis is because if it goes untreated, it gets worse and can affect your bodily functions, heart rate, and breathing... it also can cause your back muscles to hurt from doing normal, everyday things. it won't kill you, but you're MUCH better off without it. after your scoliosis is gone, you'll probably have to come back to the chiropractor's office every month or two just to keep it in check... your body will, more than likely, naturally want to go back to having scoliosis and to keep that from happening, you gotta keep an eye on it.

chiropractors can't do anything for scoliosis. go see an orthopedic surgeon!

BAHAHA! yeah... go see a surgeon :roll::laugh: hahaha funniest thing i've heard all day

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: eits
BAHAHA! yeah... go see a surgeon :roll::laugh: hahaha funniest thing i've heard all day

Why is it funny?

Orthopedic surgeons are the medical practitioners who are specifically trained in the diagnosis, assessment and treatment of scoliosis. If he wants an expert opinion for a scoliosis, then he needs to see a doctor with specialist experience in scoliosis (i.e. an orthopedic surgeon).

Surgeons don't just operate, they do offer non-surgical treatments!

 

[eits]

http://www.icpa4kids.org/research/children/scoliosis.htm

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl...ntrez&rendertype=abstract&artid=520751

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

I actually recently graduated with my B.S. in Kinesiology. Anatomy, Biomechanics, Human Phys, Injury Prevention and related courses were standard fare. I also had a cadaver lab, but not nearly as hands on as I'm sure yours is. I've toyed with going back to school for Physical Therapy... Nursing wouldn't be too hard either. Medical school is a little ambitious for me though. The majority of what I've taken would definitely help me out but I just don't think it's my thing.

if you think you can make it through nursing school, you can make it through med school. go for it, man (that is, if you think that's what you're meant to do in life).

I'm not quite sure about that, as medical school is more demanding both in its content and time requirements than is a nursing program (don't get me wrong, I'm not degrading nursing in any way; nurses rock). But you could always give nursing a try, and if you like the work but would prefer a change in position, then try medical school afterwards.

That being said, nurses and doctors definitely have very different responsibilities, and I'm quite positive there are many RNs who would breeze through medical school, yet prefer the duties of a nurse to those of an MD.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: eits
http://www.icpa4kids.org/research/children/scoliosis.htm

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl...ntrez&rendertype=abstract&artid=520751

The main problem I have with the second study is that no control group was used (at least that I saw mention of), and therefore you technically can't draw a conclusion that the treatment, rather than the simple passage of time or a host of other variables, caused the improvement.

It's definitely a start, though.

 

[Mark R]

Originally posted by: Whisper
The main problem I have with the second study is that no control group was used (at least that I saw mention of), and therefore you technically can't draw a conclusion that the treatment, rather than the simple passage of time or a host of other variables, caused the improvement.

It's also incorrect to exclude the patients who didn't stick to the treatment program from the results.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

I actually recently graduated with my B.S. in Kinesiology. Anatomy, Biomechanics, Human Phys, Injury Prevention and related courses were standard fare. I also had a cadaver lab, but not nearly as hands on as I'm sure yours is. I've toyed with going back to school for Physical Therapy... Nursing wouldn't be too hard either. Medical school is a little ambitious for me though. The majority of what I've taken would definitely help me out but I just don't think it's my thing.

if you think you can make it through nursing school, you can make it through med school. go for it, man (that is, if you think that's what you're meant to do in life).

I'm not quite sure about that, as medical school is more demanding both in its content and time requirements than is a nursing program (don't get me wrong, I'm not degrading nursing in any way; nurses rock). But you could always give nursing a try, and if you like the work but would prefer a change in position, then try medical school afterwards.

That being said, nurses and doctors definitely have very different responsibilities, and I'm quite positive there are many RNs who would breeze through medical school, yet prefer the duties of a nurse to those of an MD.

true. i've got friends in nursing school and they all struggle at times, but it's not as demanding as school for my friends who're in med school or me. according to my understanding, much of what medical doctors know is not learned at school... it's learned in the hospital... you just learn the very basics and get some background info whenever you're in med school... you learn important hands-on things and how to deal with situations from experience. however, most of the knowledge nurses use at the hospital, however, is learned in school... but the best nurses are the ones with the most experience.

 

[FrontlineWarrior]

i've seen orthopedic surgeons operate on scoliosis that your voodoo "let the body heal itself" bullsh*t couldn't touch in a million years. get a real job, loser.

 

[FrontlineWarrior]

Originally posted by: eits

true. i've got friends in nursing school and they all struggle at times, but it's not as demanding as school for my friends who're in med school or me. according to my understanding, much of what medical doctors know is not learned at school... it's learned in the hospital... you just learn the very basics and get some background info whenever you're in med school... you learn important hands-on things and how to deal with situations from experience. however, most of the knowledge nurses use at the hospital, however, is learned in school... but the best nurses are the ones with the most experience.

those "basics" you speak of are called bullsh*t detectors. medical students learn how the body works and how it can go wrong. we learn the basics of what can be done to fix them. therefore when we get "practical" knowledge in the real world we won't be fooled by quacks like chiropractors who want "the body to heal itself". you might say it's the difference between a half-educated fool and a doctor.

nurses are fantastic but most operate algorithmically. there are few that understand why things are done but many don't. that's not their fault, nor is it due to lack of intelligence. that's simply how they are taught to think. there is a huge difference between a doctor and a nurse, and it's not just about knowing the proper doses of a certain medication for a certain diagnosis.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: eits
edit: i'm getting my doctorate in chiropractic. i'm still in chiropractic school. it's med school, pretty much, but with a different name and some added courses to help you better understand how chiropractic works. we have the same courses and books as med schools, though... my school has the added bonus of having a two-trimester gross anatomy cadaver lab... we all get cadavers to dissect and study. pretty amazing when you actually see, cut out, and touch things you've learned/read/seen in books.

I actually recently graduated with my B.S. in Kinesiology. Anatomy, Biomechanics, Human Phys, Injury Prevention and related courses were standard fare. I also had a cadaver lab, but not nearly as hands on as I'm sure yours is. I've toyed with going back to school for Physical Therapy... Nursing wouldn't be too hard either. Medical school is a little ambitious for me though. The majority of what I've taken would definitely help me out but I just don't think it's my thing.

if you think you can make it through nursing school, you can make it through med school. go for it, man (that is, if you think that's what you're meant to do in life).

I'm not quite sure about that, as medical school is more demanding both in its content and time requirements than is a nursing program (don't get me wrong, I'm not degrading nursing in any way; nurses rock). But you could always give nursing a try, and if you like the work but would prefer a change in position, then try medical school afterwards.

That being said, nurses and doctors definitely have very different responsibilities, and I'm quite positive there are many RNs who would breeze through medical school, yet prefer the duties of a nurse to those of an MD.

true. i've got friends in nursing school and they all struggle at times, but it's not as demanding as school for my friends who're in med school or me. according to my understanding, much of what medical doctors know is not learned at school... it's learned in the hospital... you just learn the very basics and get some background info whenever you're in med school... you learn important hands-on things and how to deal with situations from experience. however, most of the knowledge nurses use at the hospital, however, is learned in school... but the best nurses are the ones with the most experience.

It likely somewhat depends on the program itself, but yeah, MDs generally gain a great deal of their knowledge on their residency. However, I've had my step-father (a thoracic surgeon) tell me on more than one occasion that had he to repeat the first two years of medical school again, he probably wouldn't be a doctor.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Mark R

Originally posted by: Whisper
The main problem I have with the second study is that no control group was used (at least that I saw mention of), and therefore you technically can't draw a conclusion that the treatment, rather than the simple passage of time or a host of other variables, caused the improvement.

It's also incorrect to exclude the patients who didn't stick to the treatment program from the results.

Well, if the aim of the study was to examine the effectiveness of the treatment, then dropping those patients was probably the right thing to do, as they didn't adhere to the entire treatment protocol. However, what could've been done would be to compare their improvement (if any) to the adherence group; that'd go a long way in improving external validity.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: FrontlineWarrior

Originally posted by: eits

true. i've got friends in nursing school and they all struggle at times, but it's not as demanding as school for my friends who're in med school or me. according to my understanding, much of what medical doctors know is not learned at school... it's learned in the hospital... you just learn the very basics and get some background info whenever you're in med school... you learn important hands-on things and how to deal with situations from experience. however, most of the knowledge nurses use at the hospital, however, is learned in school... but the best nurses are the ones with the most experience.

those "basics" you speak of are called bullsh*t detectors. medical students learn how the body works and how it can go wrong. we learn the basics of what can be done to fix them. therefore when we get "practical" knowledge in the real world we won't be fooled by quacks like chiropractors who want "the body to heal itself". you might say it's the difference between a half-educated fool and a doctor.

nurses are fantastic but most operate algorithmically. there are few that understand why things are done but many don't. that's not their fault, nor is it due to lack of intelligence. that's simply how they are taught to think. there is a huge difference between a doctor and a nurse, and it's not just about knowing the proper doses of a certain medication for a certain diagnosis.

That's a rather hostile response, especially from someone aiming to become a health care professional (an assumption made from the "we" statement in your post). I truly hope that should you be in medical school, you learn to take a more balanced, open-minded, and empirical approach when viewing multiple alternatives.

As for nurses, yep, they're great, although the depth of knowledge is definitely less than that of a doctor. With my mother being an RN and my step-father being a surgeon, I see it all the time. My mom is an incredibly intelligent woman, and I'm sure she'd often pick up on things that many others--doctors included--would miss simply because nurses tend to have more hands-on time with ER patients (the setting in which she works). However, even she readily admits when something is beyond her realm of competence.

One of the most important tools to have when you're dealing with unwell people is the ability to admit when you're either wrong, or you don't know the answer.