anyone else looking forward to the guaranteed plan to defeat ISIS?

[raildogg]

Being serious I'd guess Intel was passed to Iraq and they did next to nothing with it, look at how their Military fled even when they had ISIS outnumbered.
Obama has wanted to withdraw from the ME and I agree we can't assure Iraqs safety they need to grow up, have a decent Government and take care of business

It does not make sense at all. We spent trillions on Iraq and have bases throughout that country. Yet, we could not assist the so-called Iraqi army within a week or two? We couldn't mobilize any of our forces to stop the capture of Mosul? This is so bizarre.

So they end up capturing Mosul. Ok. With how many fighters? 1,500? LOL.

Is the US, the greatest military machine ever known, willing to part with its investment of hundreds of billions of dollars if not trillions so Iraqi sensitivities aren't offended? Our attack on Iraq was a kind of investment. Yet, we are willing to let some rag tag group of people with flags and pickup trucks destroy a great portion of that investment. This has to be one of the strangest things in the modern times.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

It does not make sense at all. We spent trillions on Iraq and have bases throughout that country. Yet, we could not assist the so-called Iraqi army within a week or two? We couldn't mobilize any of our forces to stop the capture of Mosul? This is so bizarre.

So they end up capturing Mosul. Ok. With how many fighters? 1,500? LOL.

Is the US, the greatest military machine ever known, willing to part with its investment of hundreds of billions of dollars if not trillions so Iraqi sensitivities aren't offended? Our attack on Iraq was a kind of investment. Yet, we are willing to let some rag tag group of people with flags and pickup trucks destroy a great portion of that investment. This has to be one of the strangest things in the modern times.

You are forgetting voters are sick of meddling in the ME add that Iraq had recently kicked us out too.

 

[soundforbjt]

It does not make sense at all. We spent trillions on Iraq and have bases throughout that country. Yet, we could not assist the so-called Iraqi army within a week or two? We couldn't mobilize any of our forces to stop the capture of Mosul? This is so bizarre.

So they end up capturing Mosul. Ok. With how many fighters? 1,500? LOL.

Is the US, the greatest military machine ever known, willing to part with its investment of hundreds of billions of dollars if not trillions so Iraqi sensitivities aren't offended? Our attack on Iraq was a kind of investment. Yet, we are willing to let some rag tag group of people with flags and pickup trucks destroy a great portion of that investment. This has to be one of the strangest things in the modern times.

Also, see Vietnam. We don't seem to learn from mistakes.

 

[raildogg]

You are forgetting voters are sick of meddling in the ME add that Iraq had recently kicked us out too.

When did America care about anyone kicking it out? I highly find that hard to believe. Also, America's decision makers do not care about anyone but their interests. Is it in their interests to let some people in pickup trucks waving flags take over?

 

[buckshot24]

I can't wait.

Why would he tell you?

 

[raildogg]

Also, see Vietnam. We don't seem to learn from mistakes.

I don't think there are mistakes in these cases. All these decisions and events happen for a reason. We may be led to believe it was a mistake but that doesn't make it so.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Why would he tell you?

When we start winning "Bigly" and I get tired of winning so often. That's how I'll know.

 

[K1052]

It does not make sense at all. We spent trillions on Iraq and have bases throughout that country. Yet, we could not assist the so-called Iraqi army within a week or two? We couldn't mobilize any of our forces to stop the capture of Mosul? This is so bizarre.

Entering a foreign nation with your military absent an invitation from that government is an act of war. The Iraqis didn't ask for help until stuff got pretty grim and their government was worried about saving their own butts.

 

[MajinCry]

You confuse warriors and war a lot. Kinda like you confuse believers and religion.

So the military doesn't consider rape SOP, doesn't torture and doesn't slaughter innocents? That doesn't sound like the same military that's been instigating war across the globe, for the past half a century or so.

Vietnam's a mighty fine example, what with the docs having been leaked 10 years ago. Guantanamo as well. Oh, what about Abu Ghraib? Or the whole Nicaragua debacle? The Iraq war? Iran? Afghanistan? Those countries were attacked for the actions committed by Saudis, so there's a whole lotta slaughter there.

But 'ey, when it's a poor brown man, it isn't murder, it's neutralization. When it's a female beloved patriot, it's not rape, it's searching for contraband.

Did you read those Vietnam veteran testimonies I linked you, by the way? Here it is again, in case you shut off in that last thread we discussed this: http://links.org.au/node/3343

I implore that you read the testimony, about how the soldiers raped women, threw them into bodypiles and then shoot them like fish in a barrel.

Anybody that was dead was considered a VC. If you killed someone they said, "How do you know he's a VC?" and the general reply would be, "He's dead," and that was sufficient. When we went through the villages and searched people the women would have all their clothes taken off and the men would use their penises to probe them to make sure they didn't have anything hidden anywhere and this was raping but it was done as searching… The main thing was that if an operation was covered by the press there were certain things we weren't supposed to do, but if there was no press there, it was okay.

....

We moved into a small hamlet, 19 women and children were rounded up as VCS--Viet Cong Suspects -- and the lieutenant that rounded them up called the captain on the radio and he asked what should be done with them. The captain simply repeated the order that came down from the colonel that morning. The order that came down from the colonel that morning was to kill anything that moves, which you can take anyway you want to take it… I turned, and I looked in the area. I looked toward where the supposed VCS were, and two men were leading a young girl, approximately 19 years old, very pretty, out of a hootch. She had no clothes on so I assumed she had been raped, which was pretty SOP [Standard Operating Procedure], and she was thrown onto the pile of the 19 women and children, and five men, around the circle, opened up on full automatic with their M-16s. And that was the end of that.[9]

You should also read what the US soldiers got up to during the occupation of Japan. Wikipedia has a great article on it. The acts that the occupying American soldiers committed would have made Genghis Khan squeamish.

 

[MrSquished]

When did America care about anyone kicking it out? I highly find that hard to believe. Also, America's decision makers do not care about anyone but their interests. Is it in their interests to let some people in pickup trucks waving flags take over?

it was a negotiated withdrawal that Bush arranged with Iraq for us to be out in 2011. He did not set the post-war negotiations for us to maintain a large troop presence. Iraq was a sovereign nation we'd have had to invade again to get in there if they didn't let us in. Supposedly Obama did try to negotiate for a small force to stay behind after 2011, maybe 10,000 troops, but negotiations broke down over giving American forces immunity in Iraq. Either way it wouldn't have been many troops.

A few years later a limited amount of troops were allowed back in to 'advise' and 'train' as shit started to go down. By then it was too late. Now we have a very limited presence in Iraq, just over 5,000 now from an article I see from 2016. We don't have bases all over the place as you claim, and the troops there are not there to wage war.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So the military doesn't consider rape SOP, doesn't torture and doesn't slaughter innocents? That doesn't sound like the same military that's been instigating war across the globe, for the past half a century or so.

Vietnam's a mighty fine example, what with the docs having been leaked 10 years ago. Guantanamo as well. Oh, what about Abu Ghraib? Or the whole Nicaragua debacle? The Iraq war? Iran? Afghanistan? Those countries were attacked for the actions committed by Saudis, so there's a whole lotta slaughter there.

But 'ey, when it's a poor brown man, it isn't murder, it's neutralization. When it's a female beloved patriot, it's not rape, it's searching for contraband.

Did you read those Vietnam veteran testimonies I linked you, by the way? Here it is again, in case you shut off in that last thread we discussed this: http://links.org.au/node/3343

I implore that you read the testimony, about how the soldiers raped women, threw them into bodypiles and then shoot them like fish in a barrel.



You should also read what the US soldiers got up to during the occupation of Japan. Wikipedia has a great article on it. The acts that the occupying American soldiers committed would have made Genghis Khan squeamish.

War is evil. Everyone understands that. What is pathetic is your attempt to paint everyone in the military with the same actions as the criminal few. The same criminal few who have existed in every war that has ever been fought. You don't understand the military, war or, apparently, logic. Your attempt to cure the evil of war by blaming the military is akin to blaming bullets for murder .

 

[raildogg]

it was a negotiated withdrawal that Bush arranged with Iraq for us to be out in 2011. He did not set the post-war negotiations for us to maintain a large troop presence. Iraq was a sovereign nation we'd have had to invade again to get in there if they didn't let us in. Supposedly Obama did try to negotiate for a small force to stay behind after 2011, maybe 10,000 troops, but negotiations broke down over giving American forces immunity in Iraq. Either way it wouldn't have been many troops.

A few years later a limited amount of troops were allowed back in to 'advise' and 'train' as shit started to go down. By then it was too late. Now we have a very limited presence in Iraq, just over 5,000 now from an article I see from 2016. We don't have bases all over the place as you claim, and the troops there are not there to wage war.

Based on your post, America has got to be the most idiotic country in the world to let this supposedly happen. I mean, the returns on its investment in Iraq are pitiful. Why would the people in power allow this? Or are we to believe that it just sort of happened?

It's weird how you say "shit started to go down." It must have been a perfect storm, so to speak. There have been plenty of perfect storms happening to America lately. Not sure if these perfect storms are self induced or coincidence.

Ok, let's assume this scenario of yours is right. However, explain how might a city as big as Mosul be under ISIS occupation (1,500 men captured it) for this long? Also, please tell us how did the 30,000 Iraqi soldiers lose the city while defending it? If this did occur, the Iraqi army has got to be among the worst ever. And they supposedly have modern US military weapons and also have been trained by the US. Weird.

I mean, these ISIS men must be the most powerful army ever seen. They make the past armies of the world look pitiful if we go by the ratios and powers involved. These ISIS guys are outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned and have the world's most powerful military against them. But they seem to be doing pretty well it seems.

I guess all it takes are Toyota pickup trucks and large flags being waved.

 

[MajinCry]

War is evil. Everyone understands that. What is pathetic is your attempt to paint everyone in the military with the same actions as the criminal few. The same criminal few who have existed in every war that has ever been fought. You don't understand the military, war or, apparently, logic. Your attempt to cure the evil of war by blaming the military is akin to blaming bullets for murder .

War is evil. Well, you understand that much at least.

Now, why is war evil? Because it involves humans murdering and raping each other on a large scale. But here's the thing. These humans doing the murdering and raping? They're part of an organization called the military; the employees are called soldiers.

If an invading military has no soldiers, how can said military rape and murder? It can't; there are no soldiers to do the raping and murdering.

Soldier worship ain't a virtue, no matter what propaganda your country peddles may tell you.

 

[raildogg]

War is evil. Well, you understand that much at least.

Now, why is war evil? Because it involves humans murdering and raping each other on a large scale. But here's the thing. These humans doing the murdering and raping? They're part of an organization called the military; the employees are called soldiers.

If an invading military has no soldiers, how can said military rape and murder? It can't; there are no soldiers to do the raping and murdering.

Soldier worship ain't a virtue, no matter what propaganda your country peddles may tell you.

Soldiers are doing the dirty work of the elite (government and others that really control the system). The same goes for police.

Soldiers are required to kill for their masters (government and elites). It is the people in power that push this patriotic garbage in league with the media. They want people to wave their stupid little flags and follow the agenda like good little sheep. Sorry to be blunt.

 

[MajinCry]

Soldiers are doing the dirty work of the elite (government and others that really control the system). The same goes for police.

Soldiers are required to kill for their masters (government and elites). It is the people in power that push this patriotic garbage in league with the media. They want people to wave their stupid little flags and follow the agenda like good little sheep. Sorry to be blunt.

Aye, I understand why the military exists, and why there's all the propaganda, ingrained soldier worship 'n' whatnot; it's the noble class sending the lower classes to murder, rape and maim foreign lower classes.

The problem I take with the soldiers themselves, is that they willingly sign up for it. I have more sympathy for the people that are forced into conscription (e.g, Russia, South Korea), but when men willingly aspire to join an organization where rape and murder is in the job description...I am less than supportive of that.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

War is evil. Well, you understand that much at least.

Now, why is war evil? Because it involves humans murdering and raping each other on a large scale. But here's the thing. These humans doing the murdering and raping? They're part of an organization called the military; the employees are called soldiers.

If an invading military has no soldiers, how can said military rape and murder? It can't; there are no soldiers to do the raping and murdering.

Soldier worship ain't a virtue, no matter what propaganda your country peddles may tell you.

I don't worship soldiers, I do respect them. Being a honorable warrior is virtuous. Try to understand the difference. In the meantime, I'll add your inability to understand humanity to the list of things you're clueless about.

 

[soundforbjt]

Based on your post, America has got to be the most idiotic country in the world to let this supposedly happen. I mean, the returns on its investment in Iraq are pitiful. Why would the people in power allow this? Or are we to believe that it just sort of happened?

It's weird how you say "shit started to go down." It must have been a perfect storm, so to speak. There have been plenty of perfect storms happening to America lately. Not sure if these perfect storms are self induced or coincidence.

Ok, let's assume this scenario of yours is right. However, explain how might a city as big as Mosul be under ISIS occupation (1,500 men captured it) for this long? Also, please tell us how did the 30,000 Iraqi soldiers lose the city while defending it? If this did occur, the Iraqi army has got to be among the worst ever. And they supposedly have modern US military weapons and also have been trained by the US. Weird.

I mean, these ISIS men must be the most powerful army ever seen. They make the past armies of the world look pitiful if we go by the ratios and powers involved. These ISIS guys are outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned and have the world's most powerful military against them. But they seem to be doing pretty well it seems.

I guess all it takes are Toyota pickup trucks and large flags being waved.

Look at Russia, they couldn't win in Afghanistan.They finally realized it and left.

 

[raildogg]

Aye, I understand why the military exists, and why there's all the propaganda, ingrained soldier worship 'n' whatnot; it's the noble class sending the lower classes to murder, rape and maim foreign lower classes.

The problem I take with the soldiers themselves, is that they willingly sign up for it. I have more sympathy for the people that are forced into conscription (e.g, Russia, South Korea), but when men willingly aspire to join an organization where rape and murder is in the job description...I am less than supportive of that.

The people signing up probably think its a noble cause or they simply want the benefits without any other considerations. In our society we are taught to only care about our life and how to enhance it. I doubt it occurs to many of them the damage they might inflict. They probably think of it as their "duty" or their "job." And that's that.

 

[raildogg]

Look at Russia, they couldn't win in Afghanistan.They finally realized it and left.

Let's not look at Russia please. Let's just focus on the topic at hand and look at it carefully.

 

[MrSquished]

Based on your post, America has got to be the most idiotic country in the world to let this supposedly happen. I mean, the returns on its investment in Iraq are pitiful. Why would the people in power allow this? Or are we to believe that it just sort of happened?

It's weird how you say "shit started to go down." It must have been a perfect storm, so to speak. There have been plenty of perfect storms happening to America lately. Not sure if these perfect storms are self induced or coincidence.

Ok, let's assume this scenario of yours is right. However, explain how might a city as big as Mosul be under ISIS occupation (1,500 men captured it) for this long? Also, please tell us how did the 30,000 Iraqi soldiers lose the city while defending it? If this did occur, the Iraqi army has got to be among the worst ever. And they supposedly have modern US military weapons and also have been trained by the US. Weird.

I mean, these ISIS men must be the most powerful army ever seen. They make the past armies of the world look pitiful if we go by the ratios and powers involved. These ISIS guys are outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned and have the world's most powerful military against them. But they seem to be doing pretty well it seems.

I guess all it takes are Toyota pickup trucks and large flags being waved.

It's legit info. As far as how the formerly and supposedly decent Iraqi army broke down in a matter of a few years post 2011:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-security-military-analysis-idUSKBN0EO2FK20140614

 

[soundforbjt]

Let's not look at Russia please. Let's just focus on the topic at hand and look at it carefully.

The topic is waiting for Trump's secret plan to defeat ISIS. Russia not being able to defeat a far "inferior " enemy is relevant.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

It's legit info. As far as how the formerly and supposedly decent Iraqi army broke down in a matter of a few years post 2011:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-security-military-analysis-idUSKBN0EO2FK20140614

*I'm pretty sure* that the Iraqi Army had most of their (enlisted peoples) pay siphoned off by corruption. I'm sure that didn't help but Iraq is a classic example of trying to run the place like a dictator would. Nobody had any loyalty or skin in the game so they all retreaded.

 

[MajinCry]

The people signing up probably think its a noble cause or they simply want the benefits without any other considerations. In our society we are taught to only care about our life and how to enhance it. I doubt it occurs to many of them the damage they might inflict. They probably think of it as their "duty" or their "job." And that's that.

It's the "We were just following orders" shtick, that does seem to be bought the world over. From Japan and America poo-pooing away the sex slavery they enacted during wartime, to the UK standing side by side with the US in blowing up impoverished people in the Middle East. Not accusing you of this, mind. Just giving me thoughts on how society at large views it.

And I have no sympathy for those that sign up and wield tools that are designed to kill. You're given advanced, heavy-duty weaponry and will follow orders to murder en masse, and if the boys in green do some rapin', that's just SOP.

It's not like there's an information vacuum either, what with it no longer being the 1700s with literacy being for the upper echelons. I'd understand if an impoverished farmhand from rural Thailand had no clue as to what he was getting into, but a first world white dude, that has the benefit of (at the very least) primary and secondary education? I don't buy that. It's an excuse often given, but that would mean most soldiers are incapable of reasoning, empathy and critical thought.

Basically, war is hell, and people should stop signing up to keep the fires blazing.

 

[raildogg]

Let's assume that the Iraqi army deserted and maybe half of them even joined ISIS after the battle. It is still impressive how they, with their pickup trucks and shiny black flags, managed to take control of a city with well over 1 million people. Remember, the ISIS were on the offensive here. And .... they have managed to run the city ever since?? Wow. These guys are extremely efficient or something ...

So please tell me: Why did America wait and let ISIS supposedly "grow" over these months and years after the fall of Mosul? I mean, ISIS literally replaced Al-qaeda overnight it seems and yet America is supposedly clueless on how to fight them. Yeah, right.

So the question shouldn't be what plan Trump has. It should be: Is America totally inept that it cannot handle a bunch of guys with pickup trucks or is there more to the story? Or another question: After the supposed fall of Mosul, why didn't America try to take over?

Let's say ISIS took over the city with 1,500 fighters (laughable). After taking it over, their numbers have swelled to 5,000 or something (who knows). Why did the Iraqi army wait this long to attack? The Iraqi army should, despite its flaws, should still have plenty of men and firepower. So why wait this long? Also, why would the US allow this to happen?

 

[raildogg]

It's the "We were just following orders" shtick, that does seem to be bought the world over. From Japan and America poo-pooing away the sex slavery they enacted during wartime, to the UK standing side by side with the US in blowing up impoverished people in the Middle East. Not accusing you of this, mind. Just giving me thoughts on how society at large views it.

And I have no sympathy for those that sign up and wield tools that are designed to kill. You're given advanced, heavy-duty weaponry and will follow orders to murder en masse, and if the boys in green do some rapin', that's just SOP.

It's not like there's an information vacuum either, what with it no longer being the 1700s with literacy being for the upper echelons. I'd understand if an impoverished farmhand from rural Thailand had no clue as to what he was getting into, but a first world white dude, that has the benefit of (at the very least) primary and secondary education? I don't buy that. It's an excuse often given, but that would mean most soldiers are incapable of reasoning, empathy and critical thought.

Basically, war is hell, and people should stop signing up to keep the fires blazing.

Very right. Thank you for this post.