Anybody still use add in sound cards

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WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
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401
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Still using a handful of modded X-Fi XtremeMusics, and a Titanium Fatal1ty Pro.
Onboard is absolute crap when using analog outs.

On systems using S/PDIF or HDMI for audio, it doesn't matter since the DAC + analog sections are external.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
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okay so after reading i'll bite - can i get into a good USB setup for less than 150? right now i use 10 year old Logitech USB headphones, I'd be curious to see how much of an "practical improvement" i get, and post my responses here.
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
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On systems using S/PDIF or HDMI for audio, it doesn't matter since the DAC + analog sections are external.

SPDIF varies all over the place particularly with optical outs. Check it out once. Using the same DAC with different TOSLINK sources you may be surprised at what you hear. (or don't!)
 
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WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
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SPDIF varies all over the place particularly with optical outs. Check it out once. Using the same DAC with different TOSLINK sources you may be surprised at what you hear. (or don't!)
Fair enough. I was emphasizing more on the weak DAC/analog section of integrated solutions.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
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Still have a X-Fi Fatality PCI but haven't used it in a long time. Been using an usb headset for fps gaming but have thought about getting a set of Sennheiser GameOne's and either using the X-Fi Fatality or getting a Soundblaster Z. Wondering if I should just buy a headphone amp for the Fatality or the Z will be an upgrade. The Sennheiser PC350 SE's are on sale for $80 at Newegg and have an impedance of 150.
 
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WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
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Assuming you can afford the space, you could always use an old HT / stereo receiver with digital inputs to drive the cans.
Overkill, but cheap and good quality.
 
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Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
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Assuming you can afford the space, you could always use an old HT / stereo receiver with digital inputs to drive the cans.
Overkill, but cheap and good quality.

I actually do have an old Yamaha stereo receiver that I could use. Being clueless on this, if the X-Fi is setup for virtual surround sound will that still provide that positional sound thru the Yamaha to my headset?
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
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Just got SoundBlaster Z. Very good headphones amplifier. If you have nice headphones with 3.5mm jack, you're not going to get their full potential without an add-on board
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
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I still use an old Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1 over TOSLINK SPDIF to the audio system in the main, I even had to stick an adapter card in it at the time as it was all PCI-E slots on the MOBO.

The ASUS P6T-7 has pretty nice optical on board sound, I used that awhile, but I dug out the old sound card a few years ago and still prefer the dedicated card.

This one I have not had a problem at all with on board noise, you can turn the AVR to max and it's pretty much almost silent when nothing is pushing through it.

29-156-005-02.jpg


I've never messed with changing the OPAMPS on it, but it has that option :D


Auzentech+X-Fi+Prelude+7.1+Burson+Audio+opamp+1.JPG
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
66,446
11,610
126
We have a weird issue with the recording at church, picking up a ridiculous amount of white noise. Was not that bad before. Part of the issue is the cable. Need to go from standard phono jack to a smaller jack for the computer. I bought the wrong cable so had to compromise with adapters. But even without the cable plugged in we pick up a ridiculous amount of noise with just the sound card. (built in)

Decided to order this:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005OZE9SA

Was going to buy a regular sound card but figured I'd take it a step further and buy something that is more "pro" rated. No need to mess with adapters and crap can just use a proper audio cable.

Now I just hope it really does work in Linux. It's suppose to. I guess it just shows up as a sound card. Linux audio can be weird though.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,408
39
91
I use a USB DAC due to interference issues with some of my onboard sound over the years with about half of my laptops/motherboards that have it.
Unfortunately, the USB DAC doesn't help either as the interference travels through the power feeding the USB. The solution was to get a USB isolator.

FWIW, Tomshardware did a blindtest between several high end DACs, including a $2000 desktop DAC and a cheap $2 realtek onboard one and failed to hear any difference. I would expect YMMV quite a bit depending on the circuit quality of your motherboard though.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html
 

slag

Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
10,473
81
101
No need for separate sound card. If I am gaming, I don't have the sound up loud anyway. I can't put headphones on because then I won't be able to hear my wife or kids if they need something. Also, I generally have a TV on in the same room as my computer for the background noise, so I need to be able to hear it. If I'm wanting to hear some good music, I just play it through kodi and thus my receiver and surround system which sounds better than any headphones would.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
184
106
I have one of these. They haven't upgraded it in years so it's still one of the best cards out.

Ya, part of me feels bad for sound card manufacturers. Unless the slot they go into becomes outdated, there's like no reason to swap a quality working card out.
 

AznAnarchy99

Lifer
Dec 6, 2004
14,705
117
106
Ya, part of me feels bad for sound card manufacturers. Unless the slot they go into becomes outdated, there's like no reason to swap a quality working card out.

Yup and there's no real reason to have one unless you're running some high end headphones.

If you're running HDMI out of your computer, your video card is doing all of the processing.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
I had just about every creative sound blaster card made up to the X-Fi Titanium... and nothing after that. Back in the day sound was a huge issue to get right in some builds. Creative for the most part was the easiest driver wise, good on cost, and good on performance, and didn't screw the FPS when gaming too much. Even when on-board chips were starting to get good, they had some performance issues in games so I stuck with a dedicated card. Now most high-end boards come with decent to high-end sound chips integrated that there is almost no need for a dedicated sound card for most computer users.

Got a box full of old PCI-e, PCI, and ISA cards sitting in a closet. Not sure what to do with all of them.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,861
2,090
126
I had just about every creative sound blaster card made up to the X-Fi Titanium... and nothing after that. Back in the day sound was a huge issue to get right in some builds. Creative for the most part was the easiest driver wise, good on cost, and good on performance, and didn't screw the FPS when gaming too much. Even when on-board chips were starting to get good, they had some performance issues in games so I stuck with a dedicated card. Now most high-end boards come with decent to high-end sound chips integrated that there is almost no need for a dedicated sound card for most computer users.

Got a box full of old PCI-e, PCI, and ISA cards sitting in a closet. Not sure what to do with all of them.

I do have a high-end board, and the surround separation and output volume of my built-in Realtek sound is very weak and flat compared to the SB Z card.
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
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Got a box full of old PCI-e, PCI, and ISA cards sitting in a closet. Not sure what to do with all of them.

Ideally, recycle them... but it's a bit of a bitch to do so. I think Best Buy used to take them, not sure if they still do. My city has a collection specifically for electronics but I hate putting that stuff outside because once it goes out, I don't want it inside again in case they miss the pick-up.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
66,446
11,610
126
I have all sorts of stuff from floppy drives to some token ring cards in a box somewhere. No idea why I'm keeping that crap lol. Does not take up much room so meh, but if I was desperate to make room I'd probably recycle them.
 
Mar 11, 2004
22,807
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SPDIF varies all over the place particularly with optical outs. Check it out once. Using the same DAC with different TOSLINK sources you may be surprised at what you hear. (or don't!)

The thing is, isn't that less likely to do with the quality of SPDIF and more other stuff, like processing? Granted that's mostly being pedantic, since if you can't control it, then that's the output you get, but that's still different from there being some inherent issue with the connector (plus it would matter on other outputs, although maybe not always). And some implement it poorly (i.e. lock it down to only passing certain bitrates). I guess my point is, there's nothing technically inherent to it that causes it, or prevents it from being able to be done correctly consistently.

But I used to hear the same thing all the time with regards to USB outputs, and a lot of people would say that SPDIF sounds better even though they could basically never provide any real evidence supporting it so it just came off as bias. That's not to say there aren't plenty of ways USB could be handled in a poor way (and early on, generally USB was limited to 16/44.1 for instance, plus clock and timing issues). One of the Fiio USB DAC/amps even had a weird issue where it would drop audio if there was like silence for long enough, and on some rare cases it would get wonky. A song that showed it was the Castle Theme from Super Mario World, that initial section where it has the quick tempo it would drop out on the initial part of it. They knew about it and fixed it in later ones and it had something to do with the implementation of the USB receiver chip I believe. That was the only thing that I could find that consistently showed it too (and other music that I thought would, as it would have something kinda similar didn't do it).

Assuming you can afford the space, you could always use an old HT / stereo receiver with digital inputs to drive the cans.
Overkill, but cheap and good quality.

I'd say that you should compare the digital and analog and see, you might be better off doing analog out to a receiver. Also good luck on figuring out the electrical specs of the headphone outputs. For a long time people had a myth that headphone jacks on receivers were via some dirt cheap IC, when in fact it was much more likely to be done via resistors. One isn't necessarily better than the other (and implementation matters).

I actually do have an old Yamaha stereo receiver that I could use. Being clueless on this, if the X-Fi is setup for virtual surround sound will that still provide that positional sound thru the Yamaha to my headset?

If you're doing it analog then yeah it should. If digital, I think you should still be fine, as I believe that Creative would let processing still happen on stereo digital out (but on the initial X-Fi cards, I think if you did digital surround it would only pass things through and not process). You should be able to check though (just turn stuff on and off and adjust the settings, if it makes a difference then its on, if not then you know it isn't). Might also be able to check by doing DD/DTS encoding (I think Creative added that to all X-Fis through a software/driver update, but maybe it was only certain models, or maybe it was that one popular 3rd party driver that people would use).

Just got SoundBlaster Z. Very good headphones amplifier. If you have nice headphones with 3.5mm jack, you're not going to get their full potential without an add-on board

You can't really say that in absolution though. An add-in card could actually be worse, if for instance it has a high output impedance and you pair it with some very low impedance headphones. Or if it doesn't have the output necessary to drive the headphones well. But then some people actually like how impedance mismatching can affect sound. And there's the rub, there's simple electrical explanations for why there could be differences, and there's plenty of situations where objectively (as in measurably) worse sound could be preferred because distortion can actually be enjoyable (or you might luck out and it'll get rid of bad frequency spikes that it would have on better equipment). But that's also why for quality the idea is that you do things right and measure well in every area, and so that other companies would target objectively good sound to tune their stuff. Having a good quality baseline helps set levels for the rest of the way. So stuff like neutrality and reference levels help. And the benefit is that if you're very much about a euphoric experience, you can then tune away and you'll be better there as well.

I use a USB DAC due to interference issues with some of my onboard sound over the years with about half of my laptops/motherboards that have it.
Unfortunately, the USB DAC doesn't help either as the interference travels through the power feeding the USB. The solution was to get a USB isolator.

FWIW, Tomshardware did a blindtest between several high end DACs, including a $2000 desktop DAC and a cheap $2 realtek onboard one and failed to hear any difference. I would expect YMMV quite a bit depending on the circuit quality of your motherboard though.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

I like them putting in the effort, but there's some issues. I wasn't able to see if they had all of them output to the same amp (so were comparing just the DAC aspects or if it was the total package), or if it was straight out of whatever jacks they had. Would be nice if they locked in a test setup and then would have new people do it and get more data too.

But then it doesn't really matter too much, as usual, it shows that the weak links in the audio chains continues to be...us! I know a lot of factors comes into play in my enjoyment of audio. I can listen to the exact same stuff on the same equipment on different days and one day be really into it, and another day feel like its grating.

I have one of these. They haven't upgraded it in years so it's still one of the best cards out.

I think there actually is a new version of that card now. Not sure if it might not have been released/distributed in the US. Hmm, looking it up, I guess not. I knew they had the newer gaming focused styled surround cards, but could swear they showed off a new version of the STX. Maybe that's all it was and they didn't get enough feedback (or the market is too small) to actually produce it. But they did make that expensive stand alone Essence DAC/amp.

Ya, part of me feels bad for sound card manufacturers. Unless the slot they go into becomes outdated, there's like no reason to swap a quality working card out.

Sure there are, as its more about features than outright quality (although they have also improved the latter).

Plus if that were anywhere close to the case with the audio, we wouldn't be seeing what we do, where it used to be $1000 for a headphone was only for limited edition ones that were especially special. Now companies are selling enough of those headphones to warrant having multiple models, and some are pushing to $5000. And if you consider Sennheiser and their Orpheus, well let's just say you shouldn't feel too bad. Same with you shouldn't feel too bad about how Creative isn't doing as well since they're a typical case of "dominated a market by using questionable tactics to remove their competition and then didn't adapt as things changed". Frankly the reason they survived the mid-late 2000s is because they had enough patents to work deals with companies (including Apple). I think they make some good products now, but can't fault anyone for harboring ill will about how they operated before.
 
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Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
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The thing is, isn't that less likely to do with the quality of SPDIF and more other stuff, like processing? Granted that's mostly being pedantic, since if you can't control it, then that's the output you get, but that's still different from there being some inherent issue with the connector (plus it would matter on other outputs, although maybe not always). And some implement it poorly (i.e. lock it down to only passing certain bitrates). I guess my point is, there's nothing technically inherent to it that causes it, or prevents it from being able to be done correctly consistently.

But I used to hear the same thing all the time with regards to USB outputs, and a lot of people would say that SPDIF sounds better even though they could basically never provide any real evidence supporting it so it just came off as bias. That's not to say there aren't plenty of ways USB could be handled in a poor way (and early on, generally USB was limited to 16/44.1 for instance, plus clock and timing issues). One of the Fiio USB DAC/amps even had a weird issue where it would drop audio if there was like silence for long enough, and on some rare cases it would get wonky. A song that showed it was the Castle Theme from Super Mario World, that initial section where it has the quick tempo it would drop out on the initial part of it. They knew about it and fixed it in later ones and it had something to do with the implementation of the USB receiver chip I believe. That was the only thing that I could find that consistently showed it too (and other music that I thought would, as it would have something kinda similar didn't do it).

The strange issue was an elevated noise floor (-63dB!) that was present on both the break out box analog outputs AND its SPDIF outputs. It was consumer grade gear so no proper balanced AES digital outputs as well as clock sync and jitter bias, etc.

Most folks won't notice anyhow because most mainstream recorded program has such a minuscule crest factor due to severe compression. But that's for another discussion. ;)
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
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I do have a high-end board, and the surround separation and output volume of my built-in Realtek sound is very weak and flat compared to the SB Z card.

Flat is your subjective placebo based opinion. The sound is digital and all 1's and 0's. As long as the bit stream isn't missing chunks, it would sound the same regardless of the processing unit. Now the volume level has to deal with amount of current going through the output, but in reality, you shouldn't be relying on a sound card or sound chip for that in the first place.

I think people are under misconceptions when it comes to sound from a computer. It's not analog anymore, and as long as the chips can handle the higher bit stream rates, they are all going to be the same when it comes to the fidelity of the sound. Which is the point of digital sound versus analog.

In the day onboard chips literally couldn't handle the sound well because they weren't powerful enough. There were also driver issues, and issues when it came to communications with other parts of the PC. There were also heat issues. That has pretty much all gone away. For most users the sound processing that is handled by the onbaord processors is more than enough. The amount of channels, and fidelity is more practically on par with the best stand-alone sound cards/devices. Now the power output for power devices will probably suck, but there are ways around that. If you are looking to mix in tons more channels for some other reason such as doing your own music mixing, then a stand-alone device/card made for that would suit that user better.

But if you are just playing games, watching videos, and listening to music then the built on sound cards are more than enough today.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
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^ Not everything is digital (see sig), certainly not the "last mile" to the speakers! ;)

If you are requiring a specific analog output for a speaker setup, then there is certainly a need for a user to invest in an additional sound card/device to handle that scenario. Again, that isn't the norm anymore. Headphones, built in speakers, or speakers that take a digital input are typically what most users use. Even the 3.5mm jacks are still pushing digital over the line to most speakers. The built in amp and speakers themselves are what change the properties of the sound at that point, not the digital nature of the output from the card itself.

If you are using a digital connection from the computer to your sound system, which is what the majority of computer users have setup, then you aren't going to notice a difference in sound at all from the best sound card/device versus the onboard sound that is handling the same digital fidelity rate. Any one that thinks or says differently is mistaken.

Even when it comes to analog signals, very few sound devices support analog out today.