Anybody else unimpressed with new midrange Nvidia GPUs, and much higher MSRP?

[AtenRa]

Current rumor is that AMD will announce the Polaris release at Computex (which starts May 31). If it's an immediate hard launch (optimistic but possible), then it might actually beat GTX 1070 to market, as the latter isn't coming out until June 10.

Apple's WWDC starts June 13, and will almost certainly include some products with Polaris. Of course, if early yields are too low, it's possible that Apple might absorb all of AMD's production capacity and AIB parts won't be available until later on. I think we will be seeing at least some AIB Polaris cards in early June, though - even if not the full die.

AMD have said 2H 2016 for Polaris, that starts from July.

 

[railven]

Who cares about TITANX when there is 650USD 980TI with same performance?
1080 is nothing more than GTX560TI in fermi generation.
560TI cost 250USD
1080 cost 600-700USD

5 years in future the new 560TI will cost how much?1000USD?PC gaming is pretty much dead if this continue.Soon there will be only few elitist who can afford new GPU.

Beside the first initial bump in price, it went from $500 (GTX 680) to $650 (GTX 780) to $550 (GTX 980) and and now to $600 (GTX 1080), in 4 years, but some who you're arguing it will be $1,000 in another 5?

Where does this rhetoric come from?

The major price hike was in 2012, it's about time to move on. If you don't want to accept, AMD is your alternative.

AMD isn't going to go cheap on Vega with HBM2. The 4870 and 5870 days a long gone.

My thoughts exactly. AMD needs to start shaking off the "value brand" moniker.

Offering 90-100% of the performance of the GTX 280 Ultra for half the price didn't do AMD much good besides marketshare %, they didn't even profit much from that entire "victory" of two generations with the 4800 and 5800 series.

Because the market doesn't reward AMD when they hit success. At best, they are looking at 50% marketshare by selling superior GPUs at bargain break even prices and that was back in the days. NV's mindshare has undoubtedly grown since then, proof with their Founder's tax hike. If AMD strikes a home-run, how much % marketshare do you think they can get? 35%? Should they price it dirt cheap or go high and profit...

Polaris will be priced well because it's small and GDDR5 is cheap. Vega will bring the performance crown and it's gonna be hella-expensive.

AMD already hiked up the price when they had the performance crown, rightfully so and I defended them (both times, HD 5870 cost more than HD 4890, and then HD 7970 over HD 6970, all had price increases).

These are companies, not our best friends. If AMD can compete on a performance level and make bank, they're stupid if they don't do it.

 

[mohit9206]

I still can't believe how many people actually believe that 1070 is faster than Titan X. It is faster under very specific condition while using VR and simultaneous multi projection but while running your standard dx11 games its nothing more than an overclocked 980.
Nvidia marketing has got to even the more knowledgeable and experienced forum members.

 

[Mopetar]

I still can't believe how many people actually believe that 1070 is faster than Titan X. It is faster under very specific condition while using VR and simultaneous multi projection but while running your standard dx11 games its nothing more than an overclocked 980.
Nvidia marketing has got to even the more knowledgeable and experienced forum members.

We don't really know where it's at. We have a supposed 1080 benchmark, but nothing concrete at this point. We don't even know the hardware specs for the 1070.

At least the wait isn't too long.

 

[AtenRa]

AMD already hiked up the price when they had the performance crown, rightfully so and I defended them (both times, HD 5870 cost more than HD 4890, and then HD 7970 over HD 6970, all had price increases).

These are companies, not our best friends. If AMD can compete on a performance level and make bank, they're stupid if they don't do it.

The big difference is that AMDs dies were getting larger on top off new processes.

HD4870 on 55nm = 256mm2 @ $299
HD5870 on 40nm = 334mm2 @ $379
HD6970 on 40nm = 389mm2 @ $369
HD7970 on 28nm = 352mm2 @ $549

Polaris 10 on 14nm = 232mm2 ??? @ $299 ???

While NVIDIAs were getting smaller

GTX280 on 65nm = 576mm2 @ $649
GTX285 on 55nm = 470mm2 @ $400
GTX480 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX580 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX 680 on 28nm = 294mm2 @ $499

GTX 1080 on 16nm = 330mm2 ?? @ $599/$699

Now we may not get the same situation as HD4870 vs GTX280 because GTX 1070 is at $375 MSRP.
They are smart enough to sell founders cards for a month or two for $450 and when Polaris 10 will release at $299 all founders cards will disappear from retail and the $375 MSRP cards will start to sell.

This way they will not have to give rebates to the early Pascal owners

 

[Erenhardt]

Now we may not get the same situation as HD4870 vs GTX280 because GTX 1070 is at $375 MSRP.
They are smart enough to sell founders cards for a month or two for $450 and when Polaris 10 will release at $299 all founders cards will disappear from retail and the $375 MSRP cards will start to sell.

This way they will not have to give rebates to the early Pascal owners

And it will help their price/perf charts in Polaris release reviews.

 

[boozzer]

The big difference is that AMDs dies were getting larger on top off new processes.

HD4870 on 55nm = 256mm2 @ $299
HD5870 on 40nm = 334mm2 @ $379
HD6970 on 40nm = 389mm2 @ $369
HD7970 on 28nm = 352mm2 @ $549

Polaris 10 on 14nm = 232mm2 ??? @ $299 ???

While NVIDIAs were getting smaller

GTX280 on 65nm = 576mm2 @ $649
GTX285 on 55nm = 470mm2 @ $400
GTX480 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX580 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX 680 on 28nm = 294mm2 @ $499

GTX 1080 on 16nm = 330mm2 ?? @ $599/$699

Now we may not get the same situation as HD4870 vs GTX280 because GTX 1070 is at $375 MSRP.
They are smart enough to sell founders cards for a month or two for $450 and when Polaris 10 will release at $299 all founders cards will disappear from retail and the $375 MSRP cards will start to sell.

This way they will not have to give rebates to the early Pascal owners

the strength of marketing and fud is scary. that comparison is really well done. :thumbsup:

 

[railven]

The big difference is that AMDs dies were getting larger on top off new processes.

HD4870 on 55nm = 256mm2 @ $299
HD5870 on 40nm = 334mm2 @ $379
HD6970 on 40nm = 389mm2 @ $369
HD7970 on 28nm = 352mm2 @ $549

Forgot the 4890 in there. I was there for each price point, and bought each card, I don't recall these forums bursting into flames at AMD raising the price almost 50% with each node change.

Polaris 10 on 14nm = 232mm2 ??? @ $299 ???

What are the blanks?

While NVIDIAs were getting smaller

GTX280 on 65nm = 576mm2 @ $649
GTX285 on 55nm = 470mm2 @ $400
GTX480 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX580 on 40nm = 529mm2 @ $499
GTX 680 on 28nm = 294mm2 @ $499

GTX 1080 on 16nm = 330mm2 ?? @ $599/$699

Now we may not get the same situation as HD4870 vs GTX280 because GTX 1070 is at $375 MSRP.
They are smart enough to sell founders cards for a month or two for $450 and when Polaris 10 will release at $299 all founders cards will disappear from retail and the $375 MSRP cards will start to sell.

This way they will not have to give rebates to the early Pascal owners

We don't actual know performance of Polaris 10, where it will fall or what it will cost. Let's revisit this when we do.

 

[moonbogg]

Yeah its interesting with the founders pricing. Its like NVidia is admitting to us, "Hey, we want to charge you more for a while because we can, but when AMD comes out with their stuff, we will have to drop the price". So instead of calling it that, they name the overpriced cards "founders editions". They also avoid some embarrassment this way. They don't have to admit their cards aren't worth the initial price anymore. They just say there are two different class cards. $700 for a mid range die is seriously crazy. I can't believe that personally.

 

[Silverforce11]

They are smart enough to sell founders cards for a month or two for $450 and when Polaris 10 will release at $299 all founders cards will disappear from retail and the $375 MSRP cards will start to sell.

This way they will not have to give rebates to the early Pascal owners

Yeah its interesting with the founders pricing. Its like NVidia is admitting to us, "Hey, we want to charge you more for a while because we can, but when AMD comes out with their stuff, we will have to drop the price". So instead of calling it that, they name the overpriced cards "founders editions". They also avoid some embarrassment this way. They don't have to admit their cards aren't worth the initial price anymore. They just say there are two different class cards. $700 for a mid range die is seriously crazy. I can't believe that personally.

I think you guys nailed it.

JHH tried to justify it with superior power delivery components on the reference Founders Edition... it's almost as if prior reference cards had junk non-premium components.

Under ordinary circumstances, having your early QA A0 GP104 chips produced in April would mean a launch sometime in July or later if all goes well.

The funny thing is that JHH is smart enough to turn what is essentially a non-product that has no volume until later, into a paper launch (that Kyle @ [H] loves!) while jacking up the prices for early ownership in the one step.

Pure genius. The same kind of genius that called the 3.5GB gimped 970 a "feature" which he forgot to tell everyone about until it was caught.

Do some of you guys start to see through the fud now? Seriously, don't kickstart NV by paying a premium tax for the early access 1080 or 1070. They make enough profits. If gamers support it, NV will push this further the next generation and soon it will be the norm.

ps. Bitsandchips.it called this several months ago, they got the P100 reveal right, for GP104, they said it's a paper launch with availability in Q3.

 

[wilds]

I think it is a genius way to make a lot of money. I am sure the 1070 and 1080 Founders Editions will be sold out right away. Can't wait to see the OC limits of these cards!

 

[Silverforce11]

I think it is a genius way to make a lot of money. I am sure the 1070 and 1080 Founders Editions will be sold out right away. Can't wait to see the OC limits of these cards!

Yes, clever and it will sell out for sure.

An incentive for NV to keep doing it the next time, even jack up the premium even higher.

"3 months early access Founders Edition, only $249 extra!"

Don't say I didn't warn you guys. lol

 

[swilli89]

Yeah its interesting with the founders pricing. Its like NVidia is admitting to us, "Hey, we want to charge you more for a while because we can, but when AMD comes out with their stuff, we will have to drop the price". So instead of calling it that, they name the overpriced cards "founders editions". They also avoid some embarrassment this way. They don't have to admit their cards aren't worth the initial price anymore. They just say there are two different class cards. $700 for a mid range die is seriously crazy. I can't believe that personally.

Exactly this. I just can't stand this kind of blatant profit maximizing. Why aren't consumers infuriated?! Actually they defend this kind of stuff as "brilliant marketing" and "only doing what they are supposed to do as a company, yay capitalism".

Like a person under a Middle Eastern dictator "oh well they killed my entire family, they're just doing what dictators are supposed to do! I completely understand!"

Just because nVidia can legally just gouge an extra $100 then try to claim they never dropped prices DOESN'T make it ok in the eyes of consumers. Where is the goodwill? Where is the value?

EDIT:

I think it is a genius way to make a lot of money. I am sure the 1070 and 1080 Founders Editions will be sold out right away. Can't wait to see the OC limits of these cards!

Case in point ^^^

 

[railven]

Yes, clever and it will sell out for sure.

An incentive for NV to keep doing it the next time, even jack up the premium even higher.

"3 months early access Founders Edition, only $249 extra!"

Don't say I didn't warn you guys. lol

One thing I'm learning about NV - if they can make money from it, they'll do.

EDIT:

Exactly this. I just can't stand this kind of blatant profit maximizing. Why aren't consumers infuriated?! Actually they defend this kind of stuff as "brilliant marketing" and "only doing what they are supposed to do as a company, yay capitalism".

Like a person under a Middle Eastern dictator "oh well they killed my entire family, they're just doing what dictators are supposed to do! I completely understand!"

Just because nVidia can legally just gouge an extra $100 then try to claim they never dropped prices DOESN'T make it ok in the eyes of consumers. Where is the goodwill? Where is the value?

Hard to counter-argue someone who correlates a company jacking up the price for a product with a dictator killing people.

With that rational, nothing can be said. Woof.

 

[airfathaaaaa]

AMD have said 2H 2016 for Polaris, that starts from July.

actually they said late q2 everyone knows they gonna launch on computex

 

[Erenhardt]

One thing I'm learning about NV - if they can make money from it, they'll do.

EDIT:


Hard to counter-argue someone who correlates a company jacking up the price for a product with a dictator killing people.

With that rational, nothing can be said. Woof.

Why would you counter-argue jacking up the price?

Companies are to make money, so they increase the prices to maximize the profits, we get it.

Consumers want to get more for less. Counter-arguing high pricing makes one no longer a consumer.

I'm wondering about the founders edition volume. Could we see GPU launches based on prototypes and early engineering samples in the future?

 

[flopper]

Exactly this. I just can't stand this kind of blatant profit maximizing. Why aren't consumers infuriated?! Actually they defend this kind of stuff as "brilliant marketing" and "only doing what they are supposed to do as a company, yay capitalism".



Just because nVidia can legally just gouge an extra $100 then try to claim they never dropped prices DOESN'T make it ok in the eyes of consumers. Where is the goodwill? Where is the value?

Intel did the same with the high end cpu, added a sudden high raise and laid off 20000 people the same week. coincidence? Of course they will get away with it also as when have enough people stop buying such so the company went away?

I just wait a few months or less than a year then you can buy a more reasonable card.
I mean my 390 beats a 980ti so its not like I dont have any hurry and Nvidia does a paper launch, PR and nice slides and people dont question why they never talked about async compute in hardware?

 

[railven]

Why would you counter-argue jacking up the price?

Companies are to make money, so they increase the prices to maximize the profits, we get it.

You just did it yourself. Weird, you can, but I can't?

Consumers want to get more for less. Counter-arguing high pricing makes one no longer a consumer.

Odd definition of consumer. I pay more for my milk and steak cuts. I support my local farmers. By your definition, you buy the cans/breads in the corner rack marked down. (And if you do, to quote the famous Jerry Seinfeld "not that there is anything wrong with that.")

I guess to you, I'm no longer a consumer.

 

[xpea]

I was among the crowd that believed a GP102 existed; but not anymore. There is no room between GP100 and GP104 to comfortably exist, and the R&D/cost to make a ~475-500mm2 SP focused chip that would overlap in performance with GP100 in all segments except DP doesn't justify it's existence.

At the opposite, after GP100 and 104 announcement, I believe even more of the GP102 existence.
Because of FP64, NVLink, die size and HBM2, GP100 will never go to gaming market. Big waste of silicon and low yields to be a geforce.
And GP104 is not performing enough for a x80Ti on 4K.
My guess for GP102 is 470mm2, 60SM / 3840cores, 12GB GDDR5X on 384bit bus (480GB/s bandwidth), with crippled FP64, and without NVLink. Something right between GP104 and GP100

Nvidia went all out on DP with GP100 because - and this is a guess - Nvidia is going to live with GP100 in the professional space for as long as they did with GK110/210 because Volta may end up being SP focused like Maxwell and they wanted to be able to counter Intel better through the life of GP100. Why will GP100.

Wrong. Volta is again full swing on HPC market. It's the FP64 FLOP powerhouse of Summit and Sierra monster supercomputers:
https://www.olcf.ornl.gov/summit/
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8727/nvidia-ibm-supercomputers

 

[swilli89]

You just did it yourself. Weird, you can, but I can't?



Odd definition of consumer. I pay more for my milk and steak cuts. I support my local farmers. By your definition, you buy the cans/breads in the corner rack marked down. (And if you do, to quote the famous Jerry Seinfeld "not that there is anything wrong with that.")

I guess to you, I'm no longer a consumer.

Except in your analogy nvidia would be the overpriced box box retailer that has most the market. Based on that argument you would want to buy AMD cards in the hope that they can return to half the market share to achieve more competition.

 

[railven]

Except in your analogy nvidia would be the overpriced box box retailer that has most the market. Based on that argument you would want to buy AMD cards in the hope that they can return to half the market share to achieve more competition.

What? AMD isn't supporting my local farmers, nor is it supporting anyone I'm directly affiliated with. If I had family working at AMD, I'd probably swing more in their direction (probably because I'd get a discount ).

My analogy is more about "value" which is subjective. I'd gladly pay more for organic milk that supports my local farmers. I'd also gladly pay more for a GPU that performs better the day I'm at the register (why I turned down Fury X for a 980 Ti.) EDIT: To support my prior AMD buying habits, I'd also pay less for a product that delivers relatively good performance.

When AMD delivers the product I want, trust me, I'll be there.

 

[AtenRa]

actually they said late q2 everyone knows they gonna launch on computex

I have a good one,

GTX 1080 Founders retail launch at $699 on 27th of May

AMD announce of Polaris 10 at $299 on Computex 31th of May with early July retail availability.

Now, IF AMD do this the way its meant to be played, they can actually sent review cards to selected sites with "instructions" to bench DX-12 titles including the new Total War : Warhummer (launching on May 24th).

Ashes of the Singularity
Hitman
Quantum Brake
Total War : WarHummer

etc etc

Polaris 10 could come close to 90% performance of GTX 1080 at half the price and lower TDP, completely disrupting GTX 1080 Founders edition and gain tremendous mindshare among the press and the consumer.

The rest will be history

edit. Some Polaris 10 cards will be close to Fury X length.

 

[Erenhardt]

You just did it yourself. Weird, you can, but I can't?

I didn't. I know what they are after, just like I know Thieves are after our valuables. It doesn't mean I support it. Quite the opposite. I don't give a flack about their profits. I want may GPUs free -case in point eth mining.

Odd definition of consumer. I pay more for my milk and steak cuts. I support my local farmers.

Wrong. Give them 1000 times more than the regular price and you will see a quality and quantity drop most of the time. That is how EU is killing farming in poor countries. A lot of farms are not producing goods anymore and just live off the field area direct payments. Most care not about the quality of their product because what they get for their crap, is an little extra on top of direct payments.

 

[railven]

I have a good one,

GTX 1080 Founders retail launch at $699 on 27th of May

AMD announce of Polaris 10 at $299 on Computex 31th of May with early July retail availability.

Now, IF AMD do this the way its meant to be played, they can actually sent review cards to selected sites with "instructions" to bench DX-12 titles including the new Total War : Warhummer (launching on May 24th).

Ashes of the Singularity
Hitman
Quantum Brake
Total War : WarHummer

etc etc

Polaris 10 could come close to 90% performance of GTX 1080 at half the price and lower TDP, completely disrupting GTX 1080 Founders edition and gain tremendous mindshare among the press and the consumer.

The rest will be history

This is exactly why the AMD Hype train crashes and burns. This is all based speculation, and hopes.

I didn't. I know what they are after, just like I know Thieves are after our valuables. It doesn't mean I support it. Quite the opposite. I don't give a flack about their profits. I want may GPUs free - point in case eth mining.

If you're mining, your GPU should always be free I did a short stint in mining, paid for my 7970. Then I mined some more, and welps I'm sure you know the rest. (There is a reason why I have a 290X in the basement .

Wrong. Give them 1000 times more than the regular price and you will see a quality and quantity drop most of the time. That is how EU is killing farming in poor countries. A lot of farms are not producing goods anymore and just live off the field area direct payments.

TIL: Milk cost $4500 in EU. No wonder you guys are always angry.

 

[amenx]

I mean my 390 beats a 980ti...

Really?

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/R9_390_Nitro/23.html